anybody had a piston "sealed"?

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anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby clampdaddy » Wed May 25, 2011 1:13 pm

I've had a couple gas piston springs break in two of my Browning shotguns. I love them both but it seems that they each have an "acchilles heel". The maker of the "sure cycle" offer a service in which they install a sleeve in the piston and do away with the spring. Have any of you had this done? They claim it won't hurt the gun but it just seems to me that without the venting action afforded by the spring, bolt speed would be increased and the receiver would take a beating from heavy waterfowl loads. Any thoughts?
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Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby orphanedcowboy » Thu May 26, 2011 5:06 am

Yes, works just fine, but it is designed to compliment their action system. Their light spring is heavier than the factory spring, and the action spring plunger is a thousand times better than the factory piece. I shot 4 rounds of Sporting Clays with a Maxus this past week and used down to 7/8oz loads with not one hitch. I am having everyone of my Gold's, Silver's, SX's and Maxus' done.

I will post up some pictures of the piston when I get home
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Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby orphanedcowboy » Thu May 26, 2011 9:42 am

Image
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Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby clampdaddy » Thu May 26, 2011 1:23 pm

Excellent! Thanks for the reply. I'll be sure to pony up for the action spring/tube as well. Did you happen to notice if there was any increase in recoil with the sealed piston. My Maxus already runs amazingly clean but I imagine that sealing up that piston probably makes it run as clean as an inertia gun.
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Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby orphanedcowboy » Thu May 26, 2011 4:22 pm

I don't think it is any cleaner than before. I shot it with both the old style piston and the sealed piston back to back, helps having two 3" guns, and didn't notice any difference in recoil or cycle rate.

The light spring allowed me to shoot some POW recoil 7/8oz loads with out a hitch. This particular gun was brand new when I sent it to Jeff, he hadn't seen one, so I sent him this one to lap the rails, seal the piston and install both the action system and magazine kit. When it came back I shot two rounds of sporting clays and had one instance of me trapping the trigger and a shell hung up on the lifter, it was fully out of the magazine and a slight touch went it on home.

I now have almost 2000 rounds thru it and besides the two issues listed above, it has been perfect.
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Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby The Drake » Fri May 27, 2011 12:03 pm

How much for the sealing ?
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Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby orphanedcowboy » Fri May 27, 2011 12:14 pm

IIRC it is less than $50, but I had several things done at one time, seal the gas piston, lap and clearance the rails, install the action kit and the magazine kit. If all your wanting is the piston sealed, I think all he needs is the piston.
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Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby The Drake » Fri May 27, 2011 12:19 pm

So what are the advantages and are there any disadvantages ?
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Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby waterfowlhunter » Fri May 27, 2011 2:04 pm

What is the point of all this extra work and expense :huh: Just wondering as I have golds, and X2's and have never had any issues of any sort shooting anything from AA trap loads all the way to 3.5" steel. Is the purpose just to shoot very light loads?
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Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby orphanedcowboy » Fri May 27, 2011 2:16 pm

To avoid broken springs, and make the gun completely bulletproof.

The original springs are carbon steel, the action spring plunger is aluminum and the magazine follower is plastic, in Jeff's system the springs, action tube plunger and action tube are stainless, the magazine follower is aluminum.

I will tear one down and snap some pictures for reference, give me a bit.
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Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby orphanedcowboy » Fri May 27, 2011 3:18 pm

Piston before and after:

Image

Image

Action tube:

Image

Action Spring Plunger:

Image

Magazine Follower:

Image
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Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby The Drake » Fri May 27, 2011 5:25 pm

Hmmmm.........Curious why Browning and Win. didnt do the sealed system from the factory ? ?
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Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby waterfowlhunter » Fri May 27, 2011 6:01 pm

Just curious as to if all this makes the gun shoot better at all? I have changed out most of my magazine followers with anodized aluminum, Not because the plastic failed to function but because I like the bright red follower which makes it easy to identify an empty magazine.

Always looking at new ideas and methods but like to know WHY it is being used and what it acomplishes. I understand you saying it is bulletproof but my factory stock golds and X2's have been working great for many years, granted I use a Benelli more hunting and the gassers more on the clays courses but I have never had a parts failure on them. :beer:
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Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby orphanedcowboy » Fri May 27, 2011 10:18 pm

I don't know that it shoots any better, but it is more consistent and it does help with cycling very low recoil loads. It also gives me piece of mind that there are now certain components that I know longer have to worry with.

It would have to be something every shooter would have to justify, kinda like shooting Xperts or Dryloks.

For me just looking at the design of the plunger alone makes it a no brainer for me, but I work in the aviation field and I like over designed components. The springs are another issue, right out of the box on 4 different Maxus', the springs have different coil counts where each of the Sure Cycle springs all have the exact same coil count. They are also heavier, but allow for the gun to cycle lower recoil/lighter ammo.

Look at the amount of wear on the factory recoil spring plunger, that is less than a box or two of Remington STS 1 1/8oz loads, so what will that piece look like after a season of shooting steel in all kinds of weather, more over, what will its dimensions be if it has already seen this kind of wear?

The another thing for me is it takes way less lubrication, I use a 6" cotton swab dipped in a very light/ thin lubricant, and just wipe the rails and then use a rag sprayed with the same lube on the magazine tube, but that is for making any carbon residue come off easier.
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Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby clampdaddy » Fri May 27, 2011 10:40 pm

waterfowlhunter wrote:What is the point of all this extra work and expense :huh: Just wondering as I have golds, and X2's and have never had any issues of any sort shooting anything from AA trap loads all the way to 3.5" steel. Is the purpose just to shoot very light loads?

I'm going to have mine sealed because I've had a couple springs break in two of my guns. Luckily magnum loads make enough pressure to work the action even with a broken spring so I've never experienced any downtime due to the problem. After the first one broke I put aftermarket springs in both my Maxus and my silver hunter and they held up fine to the heavy magnum loads but my Maxus wouldn't cycle standard bulk packed field loads so I got another aftermarket spring from the same manufacturer. It has been working fine with everything I've fed the gun but I just want to have the piston sealed and never have to worry about it again. Most of the guys at the club I hunt swear by the sure cycle action kits and it doesn't seem to matter what brand of gun they shoot. Every year a brand new Browning, Benelli, Beretta, Winchester, or Remington will show up out there and chances are it will have been upgraded but none of them have done their piston so it looks like I'm gonna be the guinea pig for this mod.
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Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby waterfowlhunter » Sat May 28, 2011 5:45 am

orphanedcowboy wrote:Look at the amount of wear on the factory recoil spring plunger, that is less than a box or two of Remington STS 1 1/8oz loads, so what will that piece look like after a season of shooting steel in all kinds of weather, more over, what will its dimensions be if it has already seen this kind of wear?



It seems the Maxus has the issue? I have golds and X2's and just pulled the plungers out of one of each of them with 1000's of rounds thru them and the plunger looks fine. yours looks like you ran sand thru the gun :lol3:. But I would perfer that the factory units were Stainless over aluminum and might look into changing out the recoil springs and plungers.


Have you fired a lot of 3.5" magnums thru it with this spacer installed in place of the spring? I am all for improvements if I ever brake a spring and I could easily turn that spacer on the lathe but I do not shoot anything lighter than 1200fps 1-1/8 oz loads anyway. My concern would be the bolt speed as compared to the stock "regulated" gas piston. Or are you using it specifically to shoot Extra light loads?
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Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby orphanedcowboy » Sat May 28, 2011 7:16 am

Well believe it or not, my Golds, silver and SX's looked about the same.

I wanted it for peace of mind, I don't want to travel 4hrs to the lease only to have an issue. I did this to all of my Benelli's as well.

Cycling reduced recoil loads was a bonus.
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Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby waterfowlhunter » Sat May 28, 2011 7:29 am

Still, no one will answer as to how the spacer works if fireing a lot of 3.5" Magnum loads. :huh:

I get replacing the springs if they fail and the stainless steel plunger is something I have always thought was a better idea than Aluminum but not sure about this "seal" over the factory engineered pressure Regulating spring.
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Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby orphanedcowboy » Sat May 28, 2011 8:47 am

It works just the same, whether you are shooting 2oz turkey loads or 1550 steel loads, you do not notice any ill effects. I only fired a few heavy rounds thru it at the pattern board, and it shot just the same as the others I had there.
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Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby orphanedcowboy » Sat May 28, 2011 9:03 am

You made me think.

Now I am going to make you think

Go pull the fore end off and study the gas piston, sleeve and spring assembly, and ask your self how the internal spring will slow down or regulate gas pressure?
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Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby waterfowlhunter » Sat May 28, 2011 10:12 am

You can clearly see that the 2 rings inside the piston that act on the top of the valve held in place by the spring. THe higher the pressure inside this area the more it compresses the spring and releases some of the gas thru the ports. No mystery here. Both Browning and Winchester have light and standard pistons, Some guns (my practical for example) even came factory supplied with both pistons. Switching them made a LOT of difference.
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Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby orphanedcowboy » Sat May 28, 2011 5:05 pm

Okay, The gas comes into the piston from the side, how does the perpendicular pressure laterally move the sleeve and spring?

The piston moves back out of battery, to start the process, the low tension spring on the outside is all that keeps the piston in battery and returns it to battery, how does the heavier spring operate versus the low tension spring?
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Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby waterfowlhunter » Sat May 28, 2011 6:25 pm

orphanedcowboy wrote:Okay, The gas comes into the piston from the side, how does the perpendicular pressure laterally move the sleeve and spring?

The piston moves back out of battery, to start the process, the low tension spring on the outside is all that keeps the piston in battery and returns it to battery, how does the heavier spring operate versus the low tension spring?



It looks to me that the time it takes the piston to move vs How quickly the pressure acts on the inner valve and spring gives it plenty of time to open before the piston ever moves. This allows some of the gas to bleed off all in probably nanoseconds. I am not the engineer who spent millions on the Browning / Winchester design so I do not have the specs on the process but I am sure it has a reason or the R&D dept would just have made a solid piston in the first place and saved a lot of $$$. :huh: The carbon steel springs, Aluminum recoil spring follower and plastic magazine followers are all Cost savings measures. but designing a valve into the piston compared to a solid piston is in no way a cost saving measure and these days if they can cut cost they will.

Not saying this sleeve is a bad thing to do but IMO it is a purpose built item for those that want to shoot mainly light loads. Just do not see what it accomplishes other than preempting a broken spring, thur the years when I had my own shop and still being around guns constantly I personally have never seen or heard of one breaking other than recently on here. I would like to hear from someone that has a few thousand rounds of 3.5" mags thru the gun with this conversion and see if it caused any bolt or receiver damage. Then If I ever did happen to break a spring I would give it a try. :beer: I love to try new ideas as long as I can make sense out of it or the reasoning behind it.
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Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby orphanedcowboy » Sat May 28, 2011 7:27 pm

Look at how Winchester markets the SX 3, 5 shots in .442 seconds, not take into consideration that the piston doesn't move until the wad has passed the ports, the gas comes into the piston chamber at 90 degrees in relation to the gas bleed spring, it just doesn't add up to me, the fact the sleeve works proves it to me, and the fact that some people reported that they had broken springs in their Golds and Silver and were completely unaware they had broke and/or there was a problem because their guns functioned as normal.

Clampdaddy can vouch for that last statement.
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Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby waterfowlhunter » Sun May 29, 2011 4:22 am

orphanedcowboy wrote:the fact that some people reported that they had broken springs in their Golds and Silver and were completely unaware they had broke and/or there was a problem because their guns functioned as normal.


clampdaddy wrote: Luckily magnum loads make enough pressure to work the action even with a broken spring so I've never experienced any downtime due to the problem.


EXACTLY, Even with the spring broke the gun cycled fine and in that case the "active valve",as browning calls it, has even less tension on it and would allow more gas bleed off. So if the gun will function with a broken spring there is even less reason to "seal" it IMO. Again it was designed that way for a reason, I can see using an aftermarket spring if the factory part broke but not eliminating it all together.
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