anybody had a piston "sealed"?

A shotgun forum for basic gun smithing, repair, modifications, and all other detailed shotgun information.

Moderators: waterfowlhunter, don taylor

Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby orphanedcowboy » Sun May 29, 2011 5:44 am

Now look at the lateral ribs on the valve, where exactly is the gas being bled to? The whole process tells me that they may have designed it to act this way but exactly how did they verify it works like it was designed?

Browning also states that the Maxus powrdrive piston design is cleaner, that's hog wash. I cannot tell it is any cleaner than any other FN built gun I have.

I would like to believe that they know what they are doing, but being in the aviation field and working with engineers daily, I am not easily sold.

Clampdaddy could verify if the sleeve does actually move, he had both his Maxus and Silver apart and possibly noticed if the sleeve had any wear to indicate it does.
User avatar
orphanedcowboy
hunter
 
Posts: 1726
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:39 am
Location: Ft. Worth, Texas


Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby waterfowlhunter » Sun May 29, 2011 7:05 am

orphanedcowboy wrote: I am not easily sold.


It seems you were easily sold on eliminating the spring with the spacer not knowing if it will eventually cause excessive ware on the action
sFi_fencing.gif
sFi_fencing.gif (5.75 KiB) Viewed 1385 times
(could not find any "pulling your chain" Smilies)

But again, that would depend on what loads you are using. I can visualize the gas piston operation and it makes sense to me the way it is designed as a basic type of pressure relief valve. Puting a spacer in there to block this action is the part I am not sold on.

I need to get another high speed video system to play with :yes:
"A free people ought to be armed" George Washington 1790

‘For those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither Liberty nor safety.’ —Ben Franklin.”
User avatar
waterfowlhunter
Forum & State Moderator
 
Posts: 3703
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 4:53 am
Location: Linden, MI

Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby orphanedcowboy » Sun May 29, 2011 10:30 am

Well come this fall we'll find out, but I suspect it won't make one iota's difference, and was sold on the sealing but I was on the other Sure Cycle products, and when discussing broken springs on another forum and speaking to Jeff, I was swayed.


:hi:
User avatar
orphanedcowboy
hunter
 
Posts: 1726
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:39 am
Location: Ft. Worth, Texas

Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby The Drake » Sun May 29, 2011 1:08 pm

What is the cost of just the piston sealing ?

I like the idea of eliminating a spring that can break or wear out.
The Drake
hunter
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:21 am
Location: Wisconsin

Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby orphanedcowboy » Sun May 29, 2011 3:00 pm

Less than $50, I had several things done at one time, so I didn't ask for a break down on each item, it would be best to call Jeff and ask him, www.surecycle.com
User avatar
orphanedcowboy
hunter
 
Posts: 1726
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:39 am
Location: Ft. Worth, Texas

Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby clampdaddy » Sun May 29, 2011 7:06 pm

To me it seems that the gas asserts the pressure needed to open the piston vents directly from the front. If you remove the piston from the mag tube and look into the mouth there is what looks like a thin sheet metal sleeve with two ears that stick up past the mouth of the piston. That is actually part of that grooved sleeve that can be seen through the vent ports. When a stout load is fired the sleeve gets shoved back which opens the gas vents. It's really hard to explain well but once you see a disassembled piston it is pretty easy to see what I'm talking about.

My Maxus would still function with mag loads and a bad spring due to the higher pressure or volume of gas, but when firing lower powered ammo a weak or broken spring dumped needed pressure and caused short stroking. With a perfectly clean gun you can fire a box of shells through it and find out which loads actually cause the piston to vent. On mine, after firing standard field loads the outside of the piston would still be clean so that tells me that it was barely opening up, if any at all. A day in the duck blind and the piston would be covered in powder residue. This is what makes me a little leary of having my piston sealed until I hear from someone who's done it and fed their gun a heavy diet of mag ammo. Sealing it up and running standard loads, nothing really changes because the factory spring would have acted in practically the same way, hold the valve closed so the gun will function. But I'm afraid of what could happen when that venting action is overridden when higher pressure rounds. But then again, they say they will warranty anything that happens to a gun due to their products, so that makes me feel better about it.
User avatar
clampdaddy
hunter
 
Posts: 3589
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 9:23 pm
Location: Where spoonies go to die

Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby wtrfwl havoc » Mon May 30, 2011 12:11 am

I am not going to get in on the whole argument on how the factory piston works. I can tell you that I had troubles with me x2 not ejecting the spent shell, therefore it was basically a single shot. I pulled the piston out and found that it had a broken spring in the piston. I sent mine to sure cycle to have it sleaved. I did mine a few years ago and it cost 30 dollars. the only thing I shoot through my x2 is 3.5in 1-9/16oz goose loads. I have probly put over 10 cases of shells through it since I had it sealed and I haven't had a hickup one since. I can assure you that it is well worth the money. However, I did go ahead and put the rest of the sure cycle system in and the new spring in the stock made all the difference in the world cycling shells in sub-zero temps.
wtrfwl havoc
hunter
 
Posts: 282
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:54 pm

Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby clampdaddy » Mon May 30, 2011 2:27 pm

Ten cases of 3.5 inch shells seems like a good enough test. Do you pull the trigger group and inspect the recoil buffer and rear receiver wall from time to time? Everything still look normal?
User avatar
clampdaddy
hunter
 
Posts: 3589
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 9:23 pm
Location: Where spoonies go to die

Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby wtrfwl havoc » Mon May 30, 2011 10:21 pm

Yes. I brake my gun down completely after about every 3 to 4 boxes and give it an entire inspection/cleaning. I have no abnormal wear whatsoever. I will say again though. I did put the rest of the surecycle system in my gun. The sure cycle spring is incredibly stronger then the factory so i believe that helps offset the extra gasses produced by sleeving the piston. I am not sure they recomend sleaving the piston unless you have the surecycle spring kit installed. I would recomend giving them a call and getting some opinions. I have dealt with them a couple of times. They are top notch people and about the best around when it comes to troubleshooting and fine tuning 3.5in autoloaders.
wtrfwl havoc
hunter
 
Posts: 282
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:54 pm

Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby clampdaddy » Tue May 31, 2011 4:45 pm

Good enough for me!! Tomorrow I'm going to send off my piston and order a sure cycle. Thanks guys.
User avatar
clampdaddy
hunter
 
Posts: 3589
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 9:23 pm
Location: Where spoonies go to die

Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby The Drake » Mon Jun 06, 2011 4:34 pm

Spoke to Jeff today and he said you can have the piston sealed and still run the factory recoil spring. He said there is NO more bolt speed so a stiffer spring is not needed.

He explained to me how the spring is not needed and that the whole spring in the gas system started years ago with the Beretta 303 and 390 designs.

I know how well his sure cycle systems work so I see no reason why this will not work very well too........Cost is $35 plus shipping so like $47 total.
The Drake
hunter
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:21 am
Location: Wisconsin

Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby Yuchi1 » Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:05 pm

On the way to St. Louis (06/1998) on business, I stopped at BPS in Springfield and walked out with one of the first SX2's to hit their shelves. Within fifty (50) rounds I noticed the spent hulls (trap loads) were dropping at my feet instead of ~8-12' as initially before firing ~5 3.5" loads at the pattern board.

Sent it to Jeff (after he found out I had one) as he wanted to use it as the prototype for the SureCycle system for that model.

Called me a few days later and said "I fixed your shotgun" with the (factory) action/recoil spring system having herniated itself because of the short(er) plunger becoming entangled with the spring, likely during the cycling of the aforementioned 3.5" loads. The extractor claw also had no edge to it on the contact surface (where it grabs the spent hull's rim) so he had to re-cut it as well as polish down the sprue marks on the bolt assembly (from where they had popped it out of the mould) which had begun to cut grooves into the top (inside) of the receiver. When I got it back, it was a decent piece and light years ahead of the 3.5" BGH jammomatic (purchased the previous August) that had since left for a new home in Louisiana.

So, of all people, Jeff has likely had the most practical experience with fixing the "bugs" in these shotguns.
Sent from my Sumerian tablets

Does the number of bands claimed simply mean you have an Ebay account?

FSH Pro Staffer

High Potentate, NSSB (no spinning shotcup brotherhood)
Yuchi1
hunter
 
Posts: 1549
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:15 pm
Location: Creek Nation of Oklahoma

Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby clampdaddy » Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:19 pm

The Drake wrote:Spoke to Jeff today and he said you can have the piston sealed and still run the factory recoil spring. He said there is NO more bolt speed so a stiffer spring is not needed.

He explained to me how the spring is not needed and that the whole spring in the gas system started years ago with the Beretta 303 and 390 designs.

I know how well his sure cycle systems work so I see no reason why this will not work very well too........Cost is $35 plus shipping so like $47 total.


I actually spoke to Jeff today as well. He called to let me know that my piston was done and I asked him if I needed the sure cycle for the reasons we talked about. He told me that it wasn't necessary. I figured that he could have told me anything he wanted so I really appreciated his honest business ethic and bought a sure cycle and a mag spring anyway.
User avatar
clampdaddy
hunter
 
Posts: 3589
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 9:23 pm
Location: Where spoonies go to die

Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby tenfingergrip » Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:12 am

Cowboy and/or Waterfowlhunter

Not wanting to hijack the thread, but since we're discussing the piston in Win/Brn'gs, I have shot an X2 for about 10 years now. Had only one issue with the piston when I fired a double-powdered reload at a trap target. "Welded" the shell in the action & barrel. Had to have my gunsmith unstick it and found also that the spring had broken in the piston. Ordered a new one from Browning/Win. Fires waterfowl loads fine but now the gun won't cycle light loads.

Questions: 1) Will the Sure Cycle modification cure the light load cycle problem?
2) What do you guys use to clean the dirty piston? I have been using brake cleaner on mine and am not sure if I'm damaging what looks to be a "plastic" piston. What is the piston made of and what should I be using to clean the excessive powder buildup?
3) Does Sure Cycle happen to sell a new piston already modified without sending them your old one? Wouldn't mind having an extra.
User avatar
tenfingergrip
hunter
 
Posts: 1709
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:43 pm
Location: Eastern NC

Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby waterfowlhunter » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:15 am

tenfingergrip wrote:What do you guys use to clean the dirty piston? I have been using brake cleaner on mine and am not sure if I'm damaging what looks to be a "plastic" piston. What is the piston made of and what should I be using to clean the excessive powder buildup?


I use Brake cleaner on mine (have been using it since I can remember on all of my guns) As long as you are using the "non-clorinated" version you will be fine. I use a stiff tooth brush to scrub it out and it always comes out clean. I use the ultrasonic cleaner if it gets real bad when shooting my reloads left over from the early 70's. I have 3 of the X2's and one is a turkey gun that takes a beating of heavy lead loads and I have never broken a spring. I also shoot cases of AA and STS rounds thru them and they cycle just fine the way they are. I believe they are anodized Aluminum.
"A free people ought to be armed" George Washington 1790

‘For those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither Liberty nor safety.’ —Ben Franklin.”
User avatar
waterfowlhunter
Forum & State Moderator
 
Posts: 3703
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 4:53 am
Location: Linden, MI

Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby clampdaddy » Wed Jun 08, 2011 12:08 pm

Are you guys running the light or the heavy spring in your sure cycles?
User avatar
clampdaddy
hunter
 
Posts: 3589
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 9:23 pm
Location: Where spoonies go to die

Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby orphanedcowboy » Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:03 am

I run the light until duck season, when I clean it prior to the season I then swap to the heavy, clean after the season and swap back to the light. I use Slip 2000 Choke and Piston cleaner, once a month and it dissolves the carbon.
User avatar
orphanedcowboy
hunter
 
Posts: 1726
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:39 am
Location: Ft. Worth, Texas

Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby wtrfwl havoc » Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:27 am

I personally have never really shot alot of light loads through my x2. I put the heavy spring in and haven't changed it since. However right after I bought the sure cycle system and had the piston sleaved. I took it out to shoot some clays to make sure it was working properly. I had several boxes of 1oz and several boxes of 1 1/8oz trap loads. I could not get it to cycle the 1oz loads at all, but put about 3 boxes of 1 1/8oz loads through it without any issues. So I just figured if for some rare reason I decided to take it dove hunting or shoot trap with it i would just make sure to buy 1 1/8oz loads. In my instructions on the sure cycle system there was a bold print caution about shooting heavy loads with the light spring if i remember right. I guess to each his own but i just don't see the need of putting the lighter spring in unless you shoot a whole lot of trap and you can buy the little lighter loads a lot cheaper.
wtrfwl havoc
hunter
 
Posts: 282
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:54 pm

Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby tenfingergrip » Thu Jun 09, 2011 1:17 pm

Havoc & Cowboy
You are talking about the spring inside the piston aren't you? If so, how do you tell the difference just by looking at the piston or the spring. Does the spring come out of the piston? If so, I have never taken mine out. Nor do I know which piston (heavy or light) that Browning sent me when I replaced mine. Is there a way to tell?
User avatar
tenfingergrip
hunter
 
Posts: 1709
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:43 pm
Location: Eastern NC

Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby wtrfwl havoc » Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:13 pm

tenfingergrip

No we are not talking about the spring in the piston. We have had the spring in the piston removed, and replaced with a sleeve.The self adjusting gas piston was one of their only flaws. It is a very common problem in the x2,x3,and golds. That is why i had mine sleeved so i don't have to worry about it happening again. We are talking about the sure cycle system that you install in the stock of the gun. The system comes with two different springs. One light for lighter field loads, and the other heavy for heavier harder hitting loads. The springs make an incredible difference in the closing of the action. At least in my gun it did (Don't get your fingers in there its like a bear trap when it slams shut haha). In sub-freezing temps when everything gets stiff and slow the sure cycle is an outstanding upgrade to your firearm that is well worth every penny.
wtrfwl havoc
hunter
 
Posts: 282
Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:54 pm

Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby ICDEDTURKES » Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:20 pm

I really need to have this done.. I have the ultimate test.. I have 2 x2s.. One is a complete POS that has been problems since day one.. Last year I added both the mag and butt stock sure cycle kit 2 it and it would not cycle anything... I have been looking into this for some time and will have it done this summer and post up results if it solves the problem..
ICDEDTURKES
hunter
 
Posts: 202
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:34 am

Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby clampdaddy » Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:17 pm

I got all my parts in the mail today and installed them on my gun. My gun ran fine while shooting it with the heavy spring installed but when I'd toss a shell into the action and release the bolt it would try to close faster than the shell could be hoisted up to the chamber and it would jam up. I installed the lighter spring and now it works just like it should. The directions said that there was no danger in using the lighter spring with magnum loads so that's the one I'm gonna leave in there. Later on I may try either removing a coil or two out of the heavy spring to see if I can make it work.
User avatar
clampdaddy
hunter
 
Posts: 3589
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 9:23 pm
Location: Where spoonies go to die

Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby orphanedcowboy » Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:33 pm

clampdaddy wrote:I got all my parts in the mail today and installed them on my gun. My gun ran fine while shooting it with the heavy spring installed but when I'd toss a shell into the action and release the bolt it would try to close faster than the shell could be hoisted up to the chamber and it would jam up. I installed the lighter spring and now it works just like it should. The directions said that there was no danger in using the lighter spring with magnum loads so that's the one I'm gonna leave in there. Later on I may try either removing a coil or two out of the heavy spring to see if I can make it work.


The issue with the heavy spring will go away, it just needs a few cycles to "break in" and you'll be fine.
User avatar
orphanedcowboy
hunter
 
Posts: 1726
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:39 am
Location: Ft. Worth, Texas

Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby clampdaddy » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:29 am

Ok, thanks. I'll try putting the heavy spring back in and running a hundred or so rounds thru it.
User avatar
clampdaddy
hunter
 
Posts: 3589
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 9:23 pm
Location: Where spoonies go to die

Re: anybody had a piston "sealed"?

Postby The Drake » Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:30 pm

So speed loads will still work with the heavier recoil spring ?
The Drake
hunter
 
Posts: 709
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2010 11:21 am
Location: Wisconsin

PreviousNext

Return to Shotgun Repair & Modifications Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot] and 9 guests