Extended Choke Blown Barrel (M2 Field) - Caught on GoPro

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Re: Extended Choke Blown Barrel (M2 Field) - Caught on GoPro

Postby lostknife4 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:46 am

Scenario:
What is the "headspace" used with Extended tubes? If the tube was forced hard against the barrel because of the threading and a very good choke tube wrench and lots of torque, and then after some usage and not necessarily heavy big pellets could/would that condition create a stress riser in that area of dimensional change along with the tube maybe having a less than rounded (radiused tool bit form) tool form that radius or lack of radius at that point creating additional stress risers?

If the factory depth tolerance was on the plus side and the depth tolerance on the tube on the minus side then this condition could occur. SO the question remains: do extended tubes headspace on the end of the barrel or like the internal types, headspace on the skirt at the bottom of the tube?

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Re: Extended Choke Blown Barrel (M2 Field) - Caught on GoPro

Postby waterfowlhunter » Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:33 am

All of mine and all that I have ever tested seat on the recess inside the barrel. There is usually .005 or greater gap between the barrel and the extended protion of the choke. I had one barrel where the flush mount chokes would actually recess into the barrel about .030 and when installing an extended choke it would stop on the mouth of the barrel and I could actually use a dental tool and find the gap inside the barrel where the ext choke tube was not seating properly. I machined off .030 on the end of the barrel and corrected this issue. That was a SBE II barrel that had the issue. But I still do not see this as being the issue due to the amount the barrel mouth is flared. looks like a high pressure situation IMO.
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Re: Extended Choke Blown Barrel (M2 Field) - Caught on GoPro

Postby yareelohim » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:51 pm

waterfowlhunter wrote:
yareelohim wrote:
gateal1 wrote:You had many pictures there. Not a one did I see a duck or goose. Maybe you were shooting at a beaver? That is the mighty beaver state correct?

My vote is in....Obstruction in the.......


Definitely not an obstruction. Go research barrels with obstructions, the barrels will bulge 100% of the time.
There is no barrel bulge just a clean break in the choke.

Second picture you can see the duck coming.



NOT true, and that is not a "clean break" look at the flared out barrel in the picture. It depends on where the obstruction is, what barrel it is (benelli barrels are very strong) and if there was a weak area. some will split the length of the barrel, some will bulge and some will just blow a hole out the side. I have seen more than one that looked just like this one come thru my shop that the customer remembered "possibly" sticking the muzzle on the ground or feeling a light shot and then the next shot blew the end of the choke tube or blew the choke completely out of the barrel. I personally know a guy that blew the end of a carlsons choke tube with an 870 on the 3rd shot shooting black cloud BB and it did NOT flare the end of the barrel like that, just a perfect break at the transition point..


ImageUploadedByTapatalk1360615335.916608.jpg


Personally, I don't see a flared out barrel or bulge. I see nothing wrong with the barrel aside from the external portion of a choke tube severed.

Maybe my "100%" of the time comment was over optimistic. Lets say, in regard to a barrel blocked...why wouldn't the barrel bulge? I have never seen a blocked barrel that didn't bulge or blow a hole. I don't see either on this barrel. Maybe it's just the pictures or my eyes, but there is WAY more evidence pointing to a faulty choke than an obstructed barrel. Unless the barrel is bulged and the pics aren't showing that.
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Re: Extended Choke Blown Barrel (M2 Field) - Caught on GoPro

Postby waterfowlhunter » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:20 pm

if find it hard to believe that you can not see the gap around the one side of the choke tube :huh:


IMAG1128_zps95d73d43.jpg


IMAG1129_zps14be55d6.jpg


notice how the ink (dip) is gone from the flared area.
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Re: Extended Choke Blown Barrel (M2 Field) - Caught on GoPro

Postby yareelohim » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:44 pm

I can see a slight flare where you pointed out.

Looks almost dead on to what happens when bridging occurs. I am inclined to think the shot rusted in the wad and caused the bridging effect at the point of tightest constriction.

It takes a lot for a barrel to be plugged and bulged...a little mud wouldn't do it and it was his first shot of the day.
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Re: Extended Choke Blown Barrel (M2 Field) - Caught on GoPro

Postby gateal1 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:47 pm

yareelohim wrote:I can see a slight flare where you pointed out.

Looks almost dead on to what happens when bridging occurs. I am inclined to think the shot rusted in the wad and caused the bridging effect at the point of tightest constriction.

It takes a lot for a barrel to be plugged and bulged...a little mud wouldn't do it and it was his first shot of the day.



I guess you should go research this a little more? "I can see a slight flare?" Wow.....
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Re: Extended Choke Blown Barrel (M2 Field) - Caught on GoPro

Postby waterfowlhunter » Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:18 am

It takes very little mud in the end of the barrel to cause issues like this. It is not the size of the blockage that causes the problem but rather how fast the fired shot is compressing the air between it and the blockage. The blockage does not have time to move in the milisecond the damage occures.
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Re: Extended Choke Blown Barrel (M2 Field) - Caught on GoPro

Postby waterfowlhunter » Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:26 am

I gave used a go-pro also for sproting clays and one time hunting. I have never had a brown mist show up in my videos. IMO it was dirt. also look at the pattern, The barrel is flared out on mostly on the lower left and the dispersion of the brown cloud is more left also. I think the barrel could be saved though with some carefull mallet work as it did not appear to split.

ScrnShot3Edit_zps3c51351e.jpg
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Re: Extended Choke Blown Barrel (M2 Field) - Caught on GoPro

Postby lostknife4 » Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:17 am

I still think the end of the tube struck something sidewise and created the flare one one side, and maybe filled the end with that crud, and cracked the tube enough to cause separation.
Lost
Last edited by lostknife4 on Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Extended Choke Blown Barrel (M2 Field) - Caught on GoPro

Postby OmegaRed » Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:20 am

waterfowlhunter wrote:It takes very little mud in the end of the barrel to cause issues like this. It is not the size of the blockage that causes the problem but rather how fast the fired shot is compressing the air between it and the blockage. The blockage does not have time to move in the milisecond the damage occures.


Do you tell all your dates that? :thumbsup:
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Re: Extended Choke Blown Barrel (M2 Field) - Caught on GoPro

Postby yareelohim » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:02 am

Has anyone here ever looked up the tests or watched the videos of shotguns being shot with various blockages in them (I.e. mud, wads, etc)? This research has been done already.

You may be surprised if you haven't. Ill try to find some for you guys.
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Re: Extended Choke Blown Barrel (M2 Field) - Caught on GoPro

Postby waterfowlhunter » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:27 pm

yareelohim wrote:Has anyone here ever looked up the tests or watched the videos of shotguns being shot with various blockages in them (I.e. mud, wads, etc)? This research has been done already.

You may be surprised if you haven't. Ill try to find some for you guys.


I can not say that this M2 barrel was definately blocked as I have not inspected it and I was not there. it is completely my opinion from experience.

I have never watched the staged videos but have seen it first hand in person. G&A tv used to do the tourture test and the ones I seen that they blocked the barrel did not really get the explosive results that they thought they would get. If I remember the correct show, they put a 20ga in front of a 12ga in a TC encore and touched it off. did not explode the barrel like they thought it would. the farther down the barrel (in my experience) the blockage is, the bigger the issue becomes.but your compressing a lot more air in the barrel if the blockage is 25" down compared to 2" down the tube.

Google HK USP Blockage test. If it is still up it was the ONLY handgun tested (45 acp) that fired with a bullet lodged in the barrel and did absoutely no damage at all. gun was 100% functional. Glock, 1911, Sig and several others tested all suffered catastrophic failure. Some barrels are just harder than others and handle a blockage differently.

The only one I ever damaged was a Semi-auto Remington back around 78. a light load then a big bang and the barrel did not buldge but actually bent kind of in a shallow lazy S from the forend forward. never seen another one do that either.
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Re: Extended Choke Blown Barrel (M2 Field) - Caught on GoPro

Postby The Drake » Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:25 pm

So, what are Benelli and Carlsons doing about all this..............
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Re: Extended Choke Blown Barrel (M2 Field) - Caught on GoPro

Postby lostknife4 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:27 pm

njonesy I don't think that anyone on here thinks that you would knowingly try to damage your gun, this situation could very well have been the result of some things that had happened to your gun without your knowledge , obviously. No one, who is sane, would purposefully fire a gun with a blocked barrel or even a broken tube. It is coincidental I feel that this was on video which will hopefully prove your point with Carleson's without it appearing to be some kind of set up. Let us know what your feedback is from Carleson's, I think they may replace the tube but I don't think Benelli will do anything about the barrel. As has been mentioned earlier I too would put in a new tube and try to pound or press out the wrinkles.
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Re: Extended Choke Blown Barrel (M2 Field) - Caught on GoPro

Postby BT Justice » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:22 am

If you look at the end of the barrel and see the flaring that's an immediate give away about what happened.
The tube wasn't tight in the barrel and shot charge upon firing rammed into it pushed the tube forward, flairing the end of the barrel, then took the top part of the tube with it.
More dingbats that shouldn't own a gun......... :hammer: :hammer:
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Re: Extended Choke Blown Barrel (M2 Field) - Caught on GoPro

Postby lostknife4 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:50 am

I don't think so BT.
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Re: Extended Choke Blown Barrel (M2 Field) - Caught on GoPro

Postby BT Justice » Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:18 am

lostknife4 wrote:I don't think so BT.
Lost

I've seen the top part of thin tubes blown off like this before.....loose tube
You don't have a better explanation and really neither did anyone else in this whole thread
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Re: Extended Choke Blown Barrel (M2 Field) - Caught on GoPro

Postby lostknife4 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:34 pm

I guess we will have to wait to hear the verdict from Carleson's for an "official" answer, that is if they give one....
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Re: Extended Choke Blown Barrel (M2 Field) - Caught on GoPro

Postby waterfowlhunter » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:34 pm

lostknife4 wrote:I don't think so BT.
Lost

:thumbsup: I agree Lost, does not look like a loose tube issue to me.
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Re: Extended Choke Blown Barrel (M2 Field) - Caught on GoPro

Postby BT Justice » Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:15 am

We'll see if they ever do come in with an answer .
From what many of the choke manufactures have stated over the years most of the choke tube failures that happen are caused by loose tubes, one manufacturer actually told me he gets most tubes returned that he knows were loose in the barrel but he guarantees them and sends out a new one any way.

The fact is the forces on a tube are more than most can imagine, if your shooting a 1 1/4 oz load of 1400 fps steel, once it hits the tube area it has about achieved muzzle velocity. Since the shot is still in one mass your basically speaking of it producing around 2378 ft/lbs of energy at the tube. Steel being incompressable, has already expanded out tight against the barrel walls upon firing..once it his the tube the shot charge has only one way to go as it does not compress and that's forward in the wad.
If your tube is tight the strength of the tube plus the strength of the end the barrel hold together enough that the shot charge will flow through..if the tube is loose then the path of least resistance is taken which means the shot charge will still push forward and be expanded out against the barrel wall but it will also push/ twist/or bend to one side the choke tube. Hence the bottom part of his barrel that flaired out more. In this case what it looked like to me was the tube was pushed downward upon impact and that impact COULD have damaged/cracked the tube which then lead to expanding shot charge taking the top portion of the tube with it.
A lot of you experts may disagree...but as I stated none of you have a better explanation.
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Re: Extended Choke Blown Barrel (M2 Field) - Caught on GoPro

Postby waterfowlhunter » Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:08 am

BT Justice wrote:but as I stated none of you have a better explanation.


:huh:

It was blocked. I have seen barrels that look just like this that were blocked. I was told by Carlsons (if memory serves me correctly) that if the tube is loose (these Benelli tubes are quite long too) that when the shot/wad grabs the inner lip of the choke it will shove the entire choke out the barrel or blow it out at the threads. NOT at the end of the barrel. I Have recently (this year) seen 1 blown out of the barrel by Black cloud, This was not a wad stripping choke tube, just plain old ic but was most likely loose and the wad caught it and tore it completely out of the barrel. but again it is just my explanation from seeing many blown chokes and barrels. In this case Federal sent the guy a full case of black cloud and Remington replaced the barrel as he told them he was using factory choke tubes but both told him "most likely cause was a loose choke tube".
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Re: Extended Choke Blown Barrel (M2 Field) - Caught on GoPro

Postby lostknife4 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:56 am

BT you do have a reasonably understandable explanation but everyone is entitled to their opinion , your statement "but as I stated none of you have a better explanation." and "More dingbats that shouldn't own a gun......... :hammer: :hammer:",
is your opinion of everyone else and not pertinent to the subject at hand, I and others have made no such comment about your opinions of any of the contributors input to this discussion, we all are just trying to find the truth and every opinion of the choke tube failure is just that much more information in that search, including yours.
Back to the subject; if the choke were loose then there should be some indication that it was loose after the fact. There maybe could/should be some shotcup "scrubings" under the inside edge of the tube and also maybe even some measurable gap between the end of the tube and the reamed seating portion of the barrel. As BT has stated the choke was forced off to one side creating an oblong sectional flaring, I can only imagine a blunt externel force doing that and if it was as BT stated then I would suspect a lot more damage that what is evident from the pictures IMHO. If one subscribed to the spinning wad theory then perhaps the tube was caught up in this spinning and centrifugal force has destroyed the end of the tube, I do not however subscribe to any such theory. The threads used on these tubes and the forces applied because of the constriction of the tube tend to make one believe that a proper fitting tube would never move because of the forces applied from firing, to move even a fraction would require the shearing of the thread. As I have mentioned earlier at this point we will have to wait for the real answer to this situation as supplied, if they do in fact, from Carleson's. I suspect they have the equipment to analyze not only the fracture but the hardness of the tube and can compare that with the properties of the alloy the tube was made from and the heat treatment the tube has undergone. They probably also have the instrumentation, which many of us do not have, that would be required to take all pertinent measurements.
As I also stated at the very start of this discussion; "there is a lot more going on here than meets the eye".
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Re: Extended Choke Blown Barrel (M2 Field) - Caught on GoPro

Postby BT Justice » Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:47 am

Lost....The main reason I am going for the loose choke is the OP stated explicitley that the barrel was clear of obstructions...he did not and has not ever stated if he ever checked the tightness of the tube....which for many of us is the last thing we do before we start shooting.
If he did not ever check the tube tightness then he basically helped destroy his own gun IMHO..hence my statement about more dingbats that shouldn't own a gun.
This seems to mirror the post a while back about the idiot who blew up his Gold 10 barrel and trying to tell Browning it was defective...in reality I believe everyone who saw the pictures agreed the barrel was obstructed and the dude was trying to get Browning to pay for his screw up.
In this case the OP may not have know the tube wasn't tight and made an honest mistake, however especially when shooting steel shot you have to make sure your tube is tight at all times. Not matter what gun I am using when shooting steel I check my choke every other time I shoot the gun for tightness....steel will loosen them up and in not so many rounds.
And we never did see the portion of the tube that was left in the barrel which as you stated might show us a lot more about what happened.
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Re: Extended Choke Blown Barrel (M2 Field) - Caught on GoPro

Postby lostknife4 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:33 am

BT as a pilot I learned early on the value of a check list, now it seems as I grow older and wiser that application of using a check list is getting used in just about every thing I do. Double checking the tube tightness has it's rewards, once when the gun was cleaned and put away and secondly when it is put in the bag for the duck hunt. Fortunately I have never had any tube problems so far, your observation is spot on.
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Re: Extended Choke Blown Barrel (M2 Field) - Caught on GoPro

Postby Yuchi1 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:41 pm

Jonsey...if you still have that box of Kent cartridges, have you cut any of them open to make sure the components are arranged in proper order, the pellets are the size so marked on the box and/or there are no fused pellets due to dampness or corrosion.

Back in the late 60's a hunting buddy fired some Winchester SuperX XX magnum lead loads on create a confetti event as the other shells (when opened) had double the fiber wads sitting under the (greatly reduced) lead pellet payload. I have also observed (both Winchester & Federal) shotshells that were mismarked (i.e. #2 steel that was actually #2 lead) by the manufacturer.
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