Martin/Zimmerman

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Re: Martin/Zimmerman

Postby WTN10 » Thu May 30, 2013 10:20 am

slowshooter wrote:Wait a sec. Taken a photo that might not be suitable for kids? Had a photo taken holding a gun? Committed a crime?

None of that should be considered if you are killed by another. Your past actions don't dictate whether your life is less valuable than another.

The person on trial is going to be Zimmerman. Not Martin. If Zimmerman is innocent I have no doubt that the jury will find him so.

Just did my jury duty last month. It's the very best process in the world to determine guilt/innocence and to find justice. I love it.


Sort of.

Federal Rule of Evidence 404(b)

Character evidence, crimes or other acts.

(1) Prohibited Uses. Evidence of a person’s character or character trait is not admissible to prove that on a particular occasion the person acted in accordance with the character or trait.

(2) Exceptions for a Defendant or Victim in a Criminal Case. The following exceptions apply in a criminal case:

(A) a defendant may offer evidence of the defendant’s pertinent trait, and if the evidence is admitted, the prosecutor may offer evidence to rebut it;

(B) subject to the limitations in Rule 412, a defendant may offer evidence of an alleged victim’s pertinent trait, and if the evidence is admitted, the prosecutor may:

(i) offer evidence to rebut it; and

(ii) offer evidence of the defendant’s same trait; and

(C) in a homicide case, the prosecutor may offer evidence of the alleged victim’s trait of peacefulness to rebut evidence that the victim was the first aggressor.

(3) Exceptions for a Witness. Evidence of a witness’s character may be admitted under Rules 607, 608, and 609.

(b) Crimes, Wrongs, or Other Acts.

(1) Prohibited Uses. Evidence of a crime, wrong, or other act is not admissible to prove a person’s character in order to show that on a particular occasion the person acted in accordance with the character.

(2) Permitted Uses; Notice in a Criminal Case. This evidence may be admissible for another purpose, such as proving motive, opportunity, intent, preparation, plan, knowledge, identity, absence of mistake, or lack of accident. On request by a defendant in a criminal case, the prosecutor must:

(A) provide reasonable notice of the general nature of any such evidence that the prosecutor intends to offer at trial; and

(B) do so before trial — or during trial if the court, for good cause, excuses lack of pretrial notice.


Florida will apply the Florida Rules of Evidence, but the rules of evidence are largely uniform with a few nuanced variations. The general principles are usually the same.
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Re: Martin/Zimmerman

Postby WTN10 » Thu May 30, 2013 10:22 am

beretta24 wrote:Still don't think Zimmerman is getting railroaded regardless of guilt or innocence??? I just put this here...

http://www.market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=221231


This is not prosecutorial misconduct. The prosecutor immediately reported the misconduct to the judge and it appears that it was a Court employee that was misbehaving. The prosecutor didn't seem to hide it or make excuses, but demonstrated absolute candor toward the court. The guy who wrote that article is an alarmist boob who doesn't understand the legal system.
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Re: Martin/Zimmerman

Postby Slack Tide » Thu May 30, 2013 10:28 am

slowshooter wrote:Wait a sec. Taken a photo that might not be suitable for kids? Had a photo taken holding a gun? Committed a crime?
None of that should be considered if you are killed by another. Your past actions don't dictate whether your life is less valuable than another.
The person on trial is going to be Zimmerman. Not Martin. If Zimmerman is innocent I have no doubt that the jury will find him so.
Just did my jury duty last month. It's the very best process in the world to determine guilt/innocence and to find justice. I love it.


A persons' past actions speak to their character which can provide insight to what happened that night. Zim may or may not have been out looking for a fight, but his history of whacky behavior in the past (I think I remember that) could make you believe that he may have been out of line that night....
Similarly, while Tray certainly should have the freedom to enjoy an evening stroll, if you believe half of what you hear/read about him...you can imagine how he would have reacted when an........"enthusiastic" member of a neighborhood watch organization asked him who he was and where he was going. Add to that the image that I discussed before and you are bringing a flame to a gas can.....

I see it at school all the time...kids take on 400 years of oppression when they respond to you telling them to stop running in the hallway...I don't give a shite who you are, I just don't want you running in my hallway and making noise during class. But the second they man-up and get the attitude that I am picking on them b/c they are black is when it gets ugly...
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Re: Martin/Zimmerman

Postby Gunnysway » Thu May 30, 2013 11:52 am

beretta24 wrote:Still don't think Zimmerman is getting railroaded regardless of guilt or innocence??? I'll just put this here...

http://www.market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=221231



If this is true, would it not be grounds for mis-trial? Would that then work it's way into double jeopardy as this is a criminal prosecution?
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Re: Martin/Zimmerman

Postby beretta24 » Thu May 30, 2013 12:11 pm

WTN10 wrote:
beretta24 wrote:Still don't think Zimmerman is getting railroaded regardless of guilt or innocence??? I just put this here...

http://www.market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=221231


This is not prosecutorial misconduct. The prosecutor immediately reported the misconduct to the judge and it appears that it was a Court employee that was misbehaving. The prosecutor didn't seem to hide it or make excuses, but demonstrated absolute candor toward the court. The guy who wrote that article is an alarmist boob who doesn't understand the legal system.

The opinions of the author aside, the actions of the non-prosecutor are misconduct, are they not? It is further evidence of individuals and groups attempting to portray the deceased as the "nice boy next door" to aid in the public lynching of the accused.
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Re: Martin/Zimmerman

Postby Indaswamp » Thu May 30, 2013 12:34 pm

Jail The Prosecutor: Zimmerman Case


It's time to get the sign out again -- you know the one:

smiley

ORLANDO, Fla. -- A court employee who retrieved photos and deleted text messages from Trayvon Martin's cellphone has been placed on administrative leave after an attorney testified that prosecutors didn't properly turn over the evidence to the defense, an attorney said Wednesday.

Former prosecutor Wesley White said he was ethically obligated to reveal that Fourth Judicial Circuit Information Technology Director Ben Kruidbos retrieved the data that weren't turned over.

Everyone involved in this needs to go into the dock now and face prosecution. Specifically, the question that must be answered is under who's direction was this intentional deception fomented, constructed and executed? This is grand jury material and one must be empanelled now.

The evidence in question? It's very material:

White said the photos Kruidbos retrieved were of a hand holding a gun and one depicted drugs. The content of the text messages wasn't specified.

"I'm an officer of the court and I'm obliged to inform the court of any misconduct or any potential misconduct coming before the court. Whether it's by the defense or prosecution," White said.

The folks over at theconservativetreehouse have been all over this; they (and I) have been watching developments in this case like a hawk. Rather than dribble it all out, however, I thought I'd wait until there was so much to present at once that a threshold was reached -- essentially irrefutable evidence of prosecutorial misconduct.

We're there at this point.

Among the material that apparently was in Trayvon's phone was a video he made of a homeless man being beaten by Trayvon and his friends. The State has thus known since that phone was forensically examined shortly after Martin's death that Martin had a history of committing crimes against other people, specifically, beating up other people, the precise event that would exonerate Zimmerman in that they had in their possession video evidence of him doing exactly that to another individual.

There is much more but no more is necessary. The fact of the matter is that the intentional failure to turn over exculpatory evidence, which the State knew of last summer, is a clear violation of both legal procedure and the law.

In addition to the Florida State legal issues that are raised here there is the issue of 42 USC 1983 and 18 USC 242, federal laws that provide both civil and criminal penalties attaching to individuals and thus not subject to being waved away by the State paying someone off when civil rights are violated under color of law or authority.

This is exactly the sort of offense that was often perpetrated on black people through the years when they were knowingly prosecuted and imprisoned even while the prosecution was in possession of evidence that they knew was exculpatory in nature.

Everyone involved in this scam, which I called up front as exactly that even before Zimmerman was arrested, needs to head directly to prison and the case against Zimmerman must be dismissed with prejudice.

Our justice system cannot survive nor does it deserve any respect or legitimacy from the public until and unless this wrong is righted.

Period.

For those who need a review on this story, and are signed into the comment system, you can click here for the article archive I've written on this subject.

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=221231
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Re: Martin/Zimmerman

Postby ScaupHunter » Thu May 30, 2013 1:36 pm

Nope, nope, no one is trying to railroad Zimmerman, and portray Trayvon as a simple misunderstood teen. Not gonna believe it, no way, no how. Liars I say, blasphemers and racists the lot of em........ :fingerhead:

Trayvon got what he had coming to him. He is now a good career criminal.
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Re: Martin/Zimmerman

Postby WTN10 » Thu May 30, 2013 1:45 pm

Gunnysway wrote:
beretta24 wrote:Still don't think Zimmerman is getting railroaded regardless of guilt or innocence??? I'll just put this here...

http://www.market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=221231



If this is true, would it not be grounds for mis-trial? Would that then work it's way into double jeopardy as this is a criminal prosecution?


You can't get a mis-trial if there's been no trial.
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Re: Martin/Zimmerman

Postby Glimmerjim » Thu May 30, 2013 1:47 pm

ScaupHunter wrote:Nope, nope, no one is trying to railroad Zimmerman, and portray Trayvon as a simple misunderstood teen. Not gonna believe it, no way, no how. Liars I say, blasphemers and racists the lot of em........ :fingerhead:

Trayvon got what he had coming to him. He is now a good career criminal.

:eek: :no:
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Re: Martin/Zimmerman

Postby Indaswamp » Thu May 30, 2013 1:47 pm

so break it down for us WTN...how does this affect things? withholding evidence is a serious offense is it not?
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Re: Martin/Zimmerman

Postby Glimmerjim » Thu May 30, 2013 1:47 pm

WTN10 wrote:
Gunnysway wrote:
beretta24 wrote:Still don't think Zimmerman is getting railroaded regardless of guilt or innocence??? I'll just put this here...

http://www.market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=221231



If this is true, would it not be grounds for mis-trial? Would that then work it's way into double jeopardy as this is a criminal prosecution?


You can't get a mis-trial if there's been no trial.

:lol3:
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Re: Martin/Zimmerman

Postby Glimmerjim » Thu May 30, 2013 1:56 pm

Gunnysway wrote:
beretta24 wrote:Still don't think Zimmerman is getting railroaded regardless of guilt or innocence??? I'll just put this here...

http://www.market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=221231



If this is true, would it not be grounds for mis-trial? Would that then work it's way into double jeopardy as this is a criminal prosecution?

As contained in your reference Gunny...."the precise event that would exonerate Zimmerman in that they had in their possession video evidence of him doing exactly that to another individual." Nope. Incorrect conclusion from the data. It might be evidence that is indicative of behavior and thus be a piece of the puzzle in attempting to determine the events that transpired that night, but it simply does NOT "exonerate Zimmerman." If I stole an apple a day for twenty years, that does not mean that the apple missing today was stolen by me. It simply increases the tendency to accept the possibility that it could have been.
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Re: Martin/Zimmerman

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu May 30, 2013 1:57 pm

Glimmerjim wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:Nope, nope, no one is trying to railroad Zimmerman, and portray Trayvon as a simple misunderstood teen. Not gonna believe it, no way, no how. Liars I say, blasphemers and racists the lot of em........ :fingerhead:

Trayvon got what he had coming to him. He is now a good career criminal.

:eek: :no:

You know it's 50/50 that that is true :yes:
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Re: Martin/Zimmerman

Postby WTN10 » Thu May 30, 2013 2:10 pm

Indaswamp wrote:so break it down for us WTN...how does this affect things? withholding evidence is a serious offense is it not?


Well if the prosecutor did it, and Zimmerman was convicted, then yes. He'd probably get a new trial then.

But the prosecutor has not hidden it. In fact, the prosecutor appears to have done all he could to correct the mistake. It was some low level employee who did it, who will likely be promptly fired.

Things will continue as normal, and admissibility of this evidence is a question of law for the judge to weigh. This will not stop this trial or get Zimmerman out of the charge.
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Re: Martin/Zimmerman

Postby Glimmerjim » Thu May 30, 2013 2:24 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:Nope, nope, no one is trying to railroad Zimmerman, and portray Trayvon as a simple misunderstood teen. Not gonna believe it, no way, no how. Liars I say, blasphemers and racists the lot of em........ :fingerhead:

Trayvon got what he had coming to him. He is now a good career criminal.

:eek: :no:

You know it's 50/50 that that is true :yes:

That he deserved to die? I am not sure that is 1/99 true. Young people do stupid things. Should they die for them? Were it absolutely known for a fact that he cold-bloodedly and with a clear mind attempted to kill Zimmerman for absolutely no justifiable reason? Then it would be arguable. As it stands now? A long, long ways from 50/50.
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Re: Martin/Zimmerman

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu May 30, 2013 2:41 pm

Glimmerjim wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:Nope, nope, no one is trying to railroad Zimmerman, and portray Trayvon as a simple misunderstood teen. Not gonna believe it, no way, no how. Liars I say, blasphemers and racists the lot of em........ :fingerhead:

Trayvon got what he had coming to him. He is now a good career criminal.

:eek: :no:

You know it's 50/50 that that is true :yes:

That he deserved to die? I am not sure that is 1/99 true. Young people do stupid things. Should they die for them? Were it absolutely known for a fact that he cold-bloodedly and with a clear mind attempted to kill Zimmerman for absolutely no justifiable reason? Then it would be arguable. As it stands now? A long, long ways from 50/50.

But everything is 50/50 :wink:

I doubt he deserved to die, but you are not required to take a beating and hope you live. As described by the one eye witness, which is consistent with Zimmerman's original statement and the bloody photographs was that Trayvon Barack Jr. was on top of George Bush Zimmerman and banging his head off the sidewalk which at that point it is reasonable to fear for your life. Even if you think George Bush Zimmerman was defenseless because he was a ****, even a **** gets to defend themselves and are not obligated to hope they are not beat to death or serious injury.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/buster/trayvon-martin/martin-zimmerman-witness-758903

Interviewed by cops about 90 minutes after the shooting, the witness--whose name was redacted from police documents--said that he was inside his home when he heard a “commotion coming from the walk way” behind his residence.

The man recalled seeing “a black male, wearing a dark colored ‘hoodie’ on top of a white or Hispanic male who was yelling for help.” The black male, he added, “was mounted on the white or Hispanic male and throwing punches ‘MMA (mixed martial arts) style.'”

The witness--who was in his living room and about 30 feet away from the confrontation-- said he called out to the two men that he was dialing 911. “He then heard a ‘pop,’” police reported, and saw the black male “laid out on the grass.”


The police reports also include observations from two Sanford cops regarding Zimmerman’s physical appearance following the shooting. Officer Timothy Smith reported that Zimmerman was “bleeding from the nose and back of his head,” while Officer Jonathan Mead noted that he “appeared to have a broken and bloody nose and swelling of his face.”


http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/OMara-Releases-Zimmermans-Statements--159844685.html
"The dispatcher told me not to follow the suspect & that an officer was in route," Zimmerman wrote. "As I headed back to my vehicle the suspect emerged from the darkness and said 'you got a problem' I said 'no' the suspect said 'you do now.'"

Zimmerman said he tried to find his cell phone to dial 911 when Martin punched him in the face.

"I fell backwards onto my back. The suspect got on top of me. I yelled 'Help' several times. The suspect told me 'shut the (expletive) up' as I tried to sit up right, the suspect grabbed my head and slammed it into the concrete sidewalk several times," Zimmerman wrote. "I continued to yell 'Help.' Each time I attempted to sit up, the suspect slammed my head into the sidewalk. My head felt like it was going to explode."

Zimmerman wrote that he tried to slide out from under Martin, but that Martin covered his mouth and nose and stopped his breathing.

"At this point I felt the suspect reach for my now exposed firearm and say 'Your [sic] gonna die tonight mother (expletive),'" Zimmerman wrote. "I unholstered my firearm in fear for my life as he had assured he was going to kill me and fired one shot into his torso. The suspect sat back allowing me to sit up and said 'you got me.'"
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Re: Martin/Zimmerman

Postby Glimmerjim » Thu May 30, 2013 2:45 pm

SpinnerMan wrote: But everything is 50/50 :wink:



I wondered if that's what you meant! :lol3: :lol3: No offense intended, AT. :beer:
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Re: Martin/Zimmerman

Postby slowshooter » Thu May 30, 2013 2:50 pm

Zimmeran is going down. :lol3:
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Re: Martin/Zimmerman

Postby Glimmerjim » Thu May 30, 2013 2:55 pm

slowshooter wrote:Zimmeran is going down. :lol3:

Were I a wagering man (I love to bet :lol3: ) I would bet that Zimmerman gets convicted of a lesser included charge than murder. No way straight up murder. No way complete exoneration. Manslaughter? My guess, or some manner of.
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Re: Martin/Zimmerman

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu May 30, 2013 3:01 pm

Glimmerjim wrote:
slowshooter wrote:Zimmeran is going down. :lol3:

Were I a wagering man (I love to bet :lol3: ) I would bet that Zimmerman gets convicted of a lesser included charge than murder. No way straight up murder. No way complete exoneration. Manslaughter? My guess, or some manner of.

That's exactly why the prosecutor over charged. He's hoping for this if Zimmerman risks life in prison by going to trial. This gives the jury a way to compromise and pressure any holdouts to get a conviction.
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Re: Martin/Zimmerman

Postby Glimmerjim » Thu May 30, 2013 3:05 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:
slowshooter wrote:Zimmeran is going down. :lol3:

Were I a wagering man (I love to bet :lol3: ) I would bet that Zimmerman gets convicted of a lesser included charge than murder. No way straight up murder. No way complete exoneration. Manslaughter? My guess, or some manner of.

That's exactly why the prosecutor over charged. He's hoping for this if Zimmerman risks life in prison by going to trial. This gives the jury a way to compromise and pressure any holdouts to get a conviction.

Plus, just a doubt that the jury will ever be convinced they know exactly what transpired.
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Re: Martin/Zimmerman

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu May 30, 2013 3:22 pm

Glimmerjim wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:
slowshooter wrote:Zimmeran is going down. :lol3:

Were I a wagering man (I love to bet :lol3: ) I would bet that Zimmerman gets convicted of a lesser included charge than murder. No way straight up murder. No way complete exoneration. Manslaughter? My guess, or some manner of.

That's exactly why the prosecutor over charged. He's hoping for this if Zimmerman risks life in prison by going to trial. This gives the jury a way to compromise and pressure any holdouts to get a conviction.

Plus, just a doubt that the jury will ever be convinced they know exactly what transpired.

And if the jury is never convinced they know exactly what transpired, what should the verdict be? :huh:

NOT GUILTY ON ALL COUNTS

You hit the nail on the head, but you didn't realize it. He knows that he cannot convinced the jury about exactly what transpired, but he still doesn't want a not guilty verdict on all counts, so over charge and hope for a compromise. Not guilty is bad politics and that can't be tolerated.
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Re: Martin/Zimmerman

Postby Gunnysway » Thu May 30, 2013 3:59 pm

WTN10 wrote:
Gunnysway wrote:
beretta24 wrote:Still don't think Zimmerman is getting railroaded regardless of guilt or innocence??? I'll just put this here...

http://www.market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=221231



If this is true, would it not be grounds for mis-trial? Would that then work it's way into double jeopardy as this is a criminal prosecution?


You can't get a mis-trial if there's been no trial.



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Re: Martin/Zimmerman

Postby ScaupHunter » Thu May 30, 2013 4:32 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:Nope, nope, no one is trying to railroad Zimmerman, and portray Trayvon as a simple misunderstood teen. Not gonna believe it, no way, no how. Liars I say, blasphemers and racists the lot of em........ :fingerhead:

Trayvon got what he had coming to him. He is now a good career criminal.

:eek: :no:

You know it's 50/50 that that is true :yes:


Yep 50/50. :thumbsup:

Trayvon proved that stupid can be cured. That and it can be fatal.
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Re: Martin/Zimmerman

Postby boney fingers » Thu May 30, 2013 7:50 pm

Glimmerjim wrote:
slowshooter wrote:Zimmeran is going down. :lol3:

Were I a wagering man (I love to bet :lol3: ) I would bet that Zimmerman gets convicted of a lesser included charge than murder. No way straight up murder. No way complete exoneration. Manslaughter? My guess, or some manner of.



He has to be guilty of something or we will see LA all over again.
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