Looks bad for Republicans that own hardware stores

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Re: Looks bad for Republicans that own hardware stores

Postby High Sierras » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:04 am

Glimmerjim wrote:
High Sierras wrote: In spite of our enthusiastic differences on other topics, Slow, I'd call you normal on this one. No one has real, hard, incontrovertable evidence -- one way or the other-- of God's existence. That's why it's called faith.

Here we go HS. I am fascinated with this subject...what is faith?


Wikipedia wrote:“…Faith is confidence or trust in a person, thing, deity, or in the doctrines or teachings of a religion. It is also belief that is not based on proof…”



Seems like a decent working definition to me. But everyone seems to get hung up on faith as being somehow only interlinked with organized religion. Yes, faith is required to believe in God, because there is no definitive proof that he (or she, if that’s how you see things…) exists.

But faith can also be in an idea. Take ‘man-made’ global warming -- we don’t have definitive proof one way or the other that it’s even taking place, yet we have followers of the ‘faith’ that spout off all kinds of mantras about the industrial revolution and carbon sequestration and greenhouse gases without a care in the world if it’s true, because a group of ‘scientists’ (i.e., someone they have faith in) told them it’s so. They use observations that the ocean surface temps are slightly higher or lower than what it was last year, they track the number of hurricanes each year, the number of tornadoes each year… they look to the heavens for any sign they can find that their faith in MMGW is justified…sound familiar?

And you can’t use their own data to point out the fallacy of their faith. The MMGW faithful will say we don’t have enough data yet to prove their faith, but the data that we do know might be inclined to point to it – and we can’t take any chances, the outcome for all mankind will be disastrous (we’ll all be damned for eternity, but instead of pits of fire and a guy with a pitchfork and pointy tail, they imagine the hell on earth that is high water levels, global starvation, and no more polar bears.) if we don’t all convert to their faith right now -- they just want to save you …sound familiar?

When you dare to peel back the reality gaps in their faith and show their faith to be belief without proof, they will get downright nasty towards those who mock their faith -- Look at the Westborough Baptist type folks, picketing soldier’s funerals for heaven’s sake. Or the Jeremiah Wright type preachers… if you disagree, you’re singled out for ridicule and personal attacks. Kinda like one of the diatribes on the latest in a never ending parade of global warming threads. The poster can’t (or won’t be bothered with) rationally point out where Chris Monkton is wrong. Instead he resorts to the favored debate tactic of third graders everywhere -- name calling (really dude, lord Monkey? Is that the best you could do?).


OK, I’ve rambled on enough, I’ve got work to do. What is faith to you, Jim?
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Re: Looks bad for Republicans that own hardware stores

Postby assateague » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:45 am

I always find it amusing that those who scream the loudest about how "stupid" it is to believe in God have no problem believing in love and hate. Although I'm sure that they have empirical proof that all those "feelings" they base their decisions on actually exist. Sure they do.
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Re: Looks bad for Republicans that own hardware stores

Postby Glimmerjim » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:15 pm

assateague wrote:I always find it amusing that those who scream the loudest about how "stupid" it is to believe in God have no problem believing in love and hate. Although I'm sure that they have empirical proof that all those "feelings" they base their decisions on actually exist. Sure they do.

For the record I have no idea to whom you refer when referring to "those who scream the loudest about how stupid it is to believe in God". I know of no one that has that perspective. Love and hate are EMOTIONS. Happiness, sadness, like, dislike, grief, elation..... are other emotions. We believe in them because we feel them. Those who do not feel the presence of what "The Main Stream Media" wants to accept blindly as truth do not understand those that do. They haven't felt it, and are attempting to be honest with themselves instead of jumping on the bandwagon of what many use as a crutch to placate their lack of honesty and courage to face life without a safety net. I'm not saying it's wrong to have faith. I just don't agree with those who disparage those who do not.
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Re: Looks bad for Republicans that own hardware stores

Postby assateague » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:19 pm

Glimmerjim wrote:We believe in them because we feel them.



God is no different.
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Re: Looks bad for Republicans that own hardware stores

Postby Glimmerjim » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:22 pm

assateague wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:We believe in them because we feel them.



God is no different.

Apparently for many he is. They don't feel him. Or don't want to admit to feeling him. Or ? But there is not a consensus as there is in who has felt, and believes in, the emotions of being happy or sad.
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Re: Looks bad for Republicans that own hardware stores

Postby assateague » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:30 pm

And for the record, it wasn't directed at you.
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Re: Looks bad for Republicans that own hardware stores

Postby assateague » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:30 pm

Glimmerjim wrote:
assateague wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:We believe in them because we feel them.



God is no different.

Apparently for many he is. They don't feel him. Or don't want to admit to feeling him. Or ? But there is not a consensus as there is in who has felt, and believes in, the emotions of being happy or sad.


So when a serial killer slaughters someone and feels happy, there is a consensus that that is what everyone feels when happy?
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Re: Looks bad for Republicans that own hardware stores

Postby Glimmerjim » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:32 pm

assateague wrote:And for the record, it wasn't directed at you.

I really didn't think it was AT. I always assume you are above the cheap shot. I believe you are.
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Re: Looks bad for Republicans that own hardware stores

Postby Glimmerjim » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:39 pm

assateague wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:
assateague wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:We believe in them because we feel them.



God is no different.

Apparently for many he is. They don't feel him. Or don't want to admit to feeling him. Or ? But there is not a consensus as there is in who has felt, and believes in, the emotions of being happy or sad.


So when a serial killer slaughters someone and feels happy, there is a consensus that that is what everyone feels when happy?

I think we can only attempt to understand others if we assume an empathy and understanding of their base emotions. What makes them feel a certain way may be perverse in our reasoning, but understanding the emotion felt is the only way to reconcile his actions. A person feels a certain way from acting in this manner.....that is not what we consider sane, nor conducive to his membership in our society....but our recognition of his feelings is what makes him unacceptable. If we knew that it traumatized him to act out these obsessions, we might take pity on him and attempt to understand what is wrong with someone that acts in a manner loathsome to him.
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Re: Looks bad for Republicans that own hardware stores

Postby assateague » Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:14 pm

So there is no such thing as your self-proclaimed consensus on "happiness" either.
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Re: Looks bad for Republicans that own hardware stores

Postby Glimmerjim » Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:22 pm

assateague wrote:So there is no such thing as your self-proclaimed consensus on "happiness" either.

I don't believe necessarily that there is a consensus on what mushrooms taste like. That doesn't mean we can't discuss the flavors and agree that some are better than others. Your point being that a consensus of opinion as to what "God" is is not necessary to have general faith. I agree, it's not. But God has taken on a definition in this society, which you frequently espouse as a Christian based society. So a lack of belief, or lack of commitment to a belief, as promoted by the accepted formers of our society, is seen as an abomination to those of faith. Why? Some choose to believe in a faith-based concept, some want to think about it before commiting. Why such a travesty? Why not celebrate it as an independent thinker attempting to ascertain his concept of truth for himself?
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Re: Looks bad for Republicans that own hardware stores

Postby slowshooter » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:42 pm

If one of you religious guys can prove to me that God exists I have about 10 minutes to go over your explanation and evidence.
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Re: Looks bad for Republicans that own hardware stores

Postby WTN10 » Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:44 pm

slowshooter wrote:If one of you religious guys can prove to me that God exists I have about 10 minutes to go over your explanation and evidence.


I have never been a fan of the evidentiary approach to apologetics for a litany of reasons. However, I've demonstrated on here multiple times that regardless of whether I can prove to you God exists, you believe and behave as if He does, whether you acknowledge Him or not.
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Re: Looks bad for Republicans that own hardware stores

Postby slowshooter » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:07 pm

WTN10 wrote:
slowshooter wrote:If one of you religious guys can prove to me that God exists I have about 10 minutes to go over your explanation and evidence.


I have never been a fan of the evidentiary approach to apologetics for a litany of reasons. However, I've demonstrated on here multiple times that regardless of whether I can prove to you God exists, you believe and behave as if He does, whether you acknowledge Him or not.



Not me. No one has ever proven that a picnic table rules the universe. But no one has proven it doesn't... Since it doesn't affect me either way I sit down, eat my hot dogs and drink my beer. Occasionally I fart right on that potential deity and I haven't been cast into Alabama yet....

As to why I don't do evil? I'm bred like most people for the most part to get along. If we didn't have that bred in we'd all be living in world of Ted Bundies - or we'd have eaten ourselves out of existence instead of just eating the neighboring tribe... Morality is just an ancient explanation for our inbred ability to distinguish bad and good as defined by the biological imperative to keep the species and ourselves alive through cooperation.

You might say that's God(s) tentacle, that's okay by me. I really and honestly don't mind the religious as long as they don't try to push their views on the public by trying to institutionalize their beliefs via the government.

In short, believe on! :hammer:
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Re: Looks bad for Republicans that own hardware stores

Postby WTN10 » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:49 pm

slowshooter wrote:
WTN10 wrote:
slowshooter wrote:If one of you religious guys can prove to me that God exists I have about 10 minutes to go over your explanation and evidence.


I have never been a fan of the evidentiary approach to apologetics for a litany of reasons. However, I've demonstrated on here multiple times that regardless of whether I can prove to you God exists, you believe and behave as if He does, whether you acknowledge Him or not.



Not me. No one has ever proven that a picnic table rules the universe. But no one has proven it doesn't... Since it doesn't affect me either way I sit down, eat my hot dogs and drink my beer. Occasionally I fart right on that potential deity and I haven't been cast into Alabama yet....

As to why I don't do evil? I'm bred like most people for the most part to get along. If we didn't have that bred in we'd all be living in world of Ted Bundies - or we'd have eaten ourselves out of existence instead of just eating the neighboring tribe... Morality is just an ancient explanation for our inbred ability to distinguish bad and good as defined by the biological imperative to keep the species and ourselves alive through cooperation.

You might say that's God(s) tentacle, that's okay by me. I really and honestly don't mind the religious as long as they don't try to push their views on the public by trying to institutionalize their beliefs via the government.

In short, believe on! :hammer:


Far too many humanists want a transcendent ethic by which to call 'bigotry' and 'intolerance' bad without being able to account for it...they want developments in science without being able to account for the very presuppositions that must be embraced for such developments. And yet they are unable to see their own inconsistency. But this is the truth of Scripture once again played out for us...

For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools (Rom 1:19-22)
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Re: Looks bad for Republicans that own hardware stores

Postby ScaupHunter » Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:45 pm

slowshooter wrote:If one of you religious guys can prove to me that God exists I have about 10 minutes to go over your explanation and evidence.


The laws of Physics are pretty clear. Everything moves to chaos. Evolution is quite simply impossible if you belive in Physics. If it isn't evolution and some magic spark in the miasma of goo in a long ago age, then what formed life on the planet, created the universe, etc......... That would be God. Perhaps not as we define him, and then perhaps it is as we define him.

Either way it takes just as much faith to not believe in God as it does to believe in him.
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Re: Looks bad for Republicans that own hardware stores

Postby slowshooter » Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:02 pm

I don't believe or disbelieve. I just don't care.

Does God exist? I don't care. Does he not exist? I still don't care. Is he a donut? Don't care. Is he an it? Don't care. Is he a they? Who cares? Should things we can't explain be blamed on it/she/him/them? Seriously? I don't care.

If someone can prove existence or not... I might get around to caring at some point. But, probably not.

If people want to spend their lifespans worshiping? Fine by me. Many friends and family are religious. No problem for me.

Im happy if people are being decent to each other. Don't care how they get there.
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Re: Looks bad for Republicans that own hardware stores

Postby High Sierras » Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:45 pm

slowshooter wrote:You might say that's God(s) tentacle, that's okay by me. I really and honestly don't mind the religious as long as they don't try to push their views on the public by trying to institutionalize their beliefs via the government.

In short, believe on! :hammer:

Slow, Past differences between us aside, and with no malice intended, more so just out of curiosity... Does your attitude about not wanting someone else's beliefs shoved down you throat via the government extend to other groups as well, or is it just the religious you have a problem with doing that?

I promise unless you pose a question back to me, I won't go any further with this... I just want to know where you stand.
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Re: Looks bad for Republicans that own hardware stores

Postby WTN10 » Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:19 pm

slowshooter wrote:Im happy if people are being decent to each other. Don't care how they get there.


You have no basis of defining decent. You have no basis for explaining why it ought to make you happy. You have no basis for explaining to others that they ought to conform to your arbitrary definition of decent. You have no basis for contesting someone else's arbitrary understanding of decent. You have no basis for resisting someone else imposing their arbitrary definition of decent on you.

Your worldview is pervasive in American culture. The magnitude of its pervasiveness is only rivaled by its utter irrationality in its inability to answer the most basic questions. The problem is so fundamental that it is ignored, and it has been ignored for so long that many people are intellectually incapable of understanding it.

Of the quote I provided, this is most the appropriate portion:

Far too many humanists want a transcendent ethic by which to call 'bigotry' and 'intolerance' bad without being able to account for it...
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Re: Looks bad for Republicans that own hardware stores

Postby slowshooter » Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:22 pm

High Sierras wrote:
slowshooter wrote:You might say that's God(s) tentacle, that's okay by me. I really and honestly don't mind the religious as long as they don't try to push their views on the public by trying to institutionalize their beliefs via the government.

In short, believe on! :hammer:

Slow, Past differences between us aside, and with no malice intended, more so just out of curiosity... Does your attitude about not wanting someone else's beliefs shoved down you throat via the government extend to other groups as well, or is it just the religious you have a problem with doing that?

I promise unless you pose a question back to me, I won't go any further with this... I just want to know where you stand.


Depends on what it is. Policy is policy, that's what governments are designed to design, implement and execute upon.

Of course, if the government tries to foist bad policy on the public I argue against it. If I believe it to be good policy I support it. I don't expect to win every time and can accept that the nation gets to decide its own fate as long as it stay within the bounds of the constitution.

But I'm never going to conflate policy with religion. Unlike other countries we have a fairly strong separation between church and state and I would like to keep it that way. We shouldn't have a state religion despite the wishes of the deeply religious.

That way lies madness.
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Re: Looks bad for Republicans that own hardware stores

Postby slowshooter » Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:08 pm

WTN10 wrote:
slowshooter wrote:Im happy if people are being decent to each other. Don't care how they get there.


You have no basis of defining decent. You have no basis for explaining why it ought to make you happy. You have no basis for explaining to others that they ought to conform to your arbitrary definition of decent. You have no basis for contesting someone else's arbitrary understanding of decent. You have no basis for resisting someone else imposing their arbitrary definition of decent on you.


I already provided my basis for what most folks believe is decent. Which IMO is the biological imperative to survive. When cooperation is advantageous, people cooperate. If there should be a natural disaster and the food runs out? Within a month after we eat all our canned food and pets. We'll start eating each other. Depending on your point of view, feeding your kids might mean killing your neighbors to make sure that your children stay alive.

From your perspective keeping your kids alive is the right thing to do. No matter what the cost. From your neighbors point of view, you're just a murderous cannibal. Who's decent? The one that lives. Because they kept the species going. Happiness? It's just a way for our brains to reward cooperation and/or survival (perhaps of the fittest). Contentment and anything else can be framed within our built in imperatives.

Of course, you can certainly define all that stuff anyway you want. Call it survival instincts, decency, religiosity or opportunistic. It doesn't matter to me because I know that the rules won't change. You get hungry enough you'll kill to eat. Your kids get hungry first? You'll kill to feed them and if they aren't strong enough to fight you off when you get hungry again, you may do as many Soviets did... And eat one of your kids as well. Who gets to breed when the food comes back? Only the people left alive.

Your worldview is pervasive in American culture. The magnitude of its pervasiveness is only rivaled by its utter irrationality in its inability to answer the most basic questions. The problem is so fundamental that it is ignored, and it has been ignored for so long that many people are intellectually incapable of understanding it.


You must think that I believe the world exists so everyone can be fully self actualized. I don't. Folks that believe that tripe, ignore their nature and every generation it took to get them to the day they think going to McDonald's will make them happy. We came from dirt and will end in ashes. What we do with the short time we have is try to make little versions of ourselves and make sure our lines last another generation. Some folks see through that and could care less about kids. That's okay. Maybe that's the self actualization that will eventually happen to every line.


Of the quote I provided, this is most the appropriate portion:

Far too many humanists want a transcendent ethic by which to call 'bigotry' and 'intolerance' bad without being able to account for it...


Screw that. Bigotry and intolerance get in the way of the species developing despite the fact it might color up some tribes or change a culture. No ethics involved at all for me. Ethics are situational and are dependent on the rules of decorum de jour overlaid on a particular culture. At this point in our history bigotry and intolerance aren't cooperative they're just sources of conflict. I see no need for them at the moment.

I suspect that folks just don't like asking hard questions about the nature of man. Those people use religion as a behavioral governor so they don't have to look in a mirror and accept that we aren't good or bad in the sense that we cartoon it up in our culture.

We're just hungry and thirsty. Everything else we've accomplished as a species just makes getting food and water a little easier - as opposed to running across the savannah with a sharp stick. Big whoop.
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Re: Looks bad for Republicans that own hardware stores

Postby Glimmerjim » Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:43 pm

High Sierras wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:
High Sierras wrote: In spite of our enthusiastic differences on other topics, Slow, I'd call you normal on this one. No one has real, hard, incontrovertable evidence -- one way or the other-- of God's existence. That's why it's called faith.

Here we go HS. I am fascinated with this subject...what is faith?


Wikipedia wrote:“…Faith is confidence or trust in a person, thing, deity, or in the doctrines or teachings of a religion. It is also belief that is not based on proof…”



Seems like a decent working definition to me. But everyone seems to get hung up on faith as being somehow only interlinked with organized religion. Yes, faith is required to believe in God, because there is no definitive proof that he (or she, if that’s how you see things…) exists.

But faith can also be in an idea. Take ‘man-made’ global warming -- we don’t have definitive proof one way or the other that it’s even taking place, yet we have followers of the ‘faith’ that spout off all kinds of mantras about the industrial revolution and carbon sequestration and greenhouse gases without a care in the world if it’s true, because a group of ‘scientists’ (i.e., someone they have faith in) told them it’s so. They use observations that the ocean surface temps are slightly higher or lower than what it was last year, they track the number of hurricanes each year, the number of tornadoes each year… they look to the heavens for any sign they can find that their faith in MMGW is justified…sound familiar?

And you can’t use their own data to point out the fallacy of their faith. The MMGW faithful will say we don’t have enough data yet to prove their faith, but the data that we do know might be inclined to point to it – and we can’t take any chances, the outcome for all mankind will be disastrous (we’ll all be damned for eternity, but instead of pits of fire and a guy with a pitchfork and pointy tail, they imagine the hell on earth that is high water levels, global starvation, and no more polar bears.) if we don’t all convert to their faith right now -- they just want to save you …sound familiar?

When you dare to peel back the reality gaps in their faith and show their faith to be belief without proof, they will get downright nasty towards those who mock their faith -- Look at the Westborough Baptist type folks, picketing soldier’s funerals for heaven’s sake. Or the Jeremiah Wright type preachers… if you disagree, you’re singled out for ridicule and personal attacks. Kinda like one of the diatribes on the latest in a never ending parade of global warming threads. The poster can’t (or won’t be bothered with) rationally point out where Chris Monkton is wrong. Instead he resorts to the favored debate tactic of third graders everywhere -- name calling (really dude, lord Monkey? Is that the best you could do?).


OK, I’ve rambled on enough, I’ve got work to do. What is faith to you, Jim?

No, I really agree with the definition, HS. I feel that faith is confidence in one's beliefs without the ability or need to verify it to anyone else. Proselytizing has always been an issue with me. I don't need a gang to support my beliefs, nor do I see much in the way of behavior in most religions that I would want to emulate. This is from both personal and general experience.
I alo completely agree that many of us do tend to take things on faith that often times simply support our preconceptions. I believe there is a lot behind this on a psychological basis, mainly a desire to consider how we think as reality. I frankly don't know if anyone could get through a day if every thought he had was proven to be erroneous. To say that religion is different is disingenuous. Further, religion can be, and is,, argued just as fruitlessly and endlessly contentiously as "scientific fact."
What interests me about religion so much, I guess, is that there are so many living, and dying, in the belief that their's is the only "true" religion. Then they seem to me to contort and interpret their considered diety's "words" so as to bestow "preferred status upon themselves and their exclusive clique. Most times this exclusionary policy results in behavior towards each other that no sane person considers as representative of their personal manifestation of a "holy" creator. Or at least what I would consider to be the sane actions of a believer in an altruistic, omnipresent "God."
That is part of the reason religion is so interesting to me. I just don't get it. It seems to be in such conflict with itself. And those who consider themselves as "religious" strike me, personally, as also in great conflict with themselves. Not always, to be sure. But for the most part.
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Re: Looks bad for Republicans that own hardware stores

Postby Indaswamp » Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:51 pm

SpinnerMan wrote: If you are talking about older scientists with Ph.D.'s in hard sciences, especially engineering, I'd say eclectic and non-conforming is the best description and probably right leaning is the correct term.

Very, very, good description Spinner... :clapping:
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Re: Looks bad for Republicans that own hardware stores

Postby Indaswamp » Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:56 pm

slowshooter wrote:I have a buddy that doesn't believe in gods. But considers himself religious.
Another that is an atheist but believes in a supreme being. I asked about that and he said "The supreme being is just another guy with a lot of power. That doesn't make him better or a God."

What do you call a person that doesn't believe that there is evidence that God exists - or evidence that God doesn't. Because that's me.
:hammer:

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Indaswamp
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Re: Looks bad for Republicans that own hardware stores

Postby Indaswamp » Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:00 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:
vincentpa wrote:Slow, have they ever made a poll of which direction engineers lean? I wonder why, :huh:

I would say 85-90% engineers are conservative, even gubment ones.

You can tell the conservative ones by their pocket protectors! :lol3:

I don't think I have ever seen anyone wear a pocket protector. Grandpa, it's the 21st century, they went out before the 8 track, another thing I don't believe I have ever seen used.

my uncle wore them religiously before he retired....
The Cajun 7 Course Meal; 1 lb. of boudin and a six pack of Abita beer.

Save the Marsh, Eat a Nutria!

Never fart in your waders, it'll give you WORTS.
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Indaswamp
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