Gay Boy Scouts

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Re: Gay Boy Scouts

Postby ohioboy » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:59 pm

High Sierras wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:
High Sierras wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:Other than the last paragraph, which to me is just emotionally charged discriminatory generalization, I believe you have made your point very well, HS. Thanks for the insight. :thumbsup:


I didn't generalize... I specifically said the ones who pushed the agenda were being just plain rude. I'm sure there are a lot of homosexuals out there who just want to live their lives in peace -- and don't feel the need to force their views on their neighbors.

Rosa Parks didn't live a life of obsequieous acceptance, either, HS.


Neither did the KKK. Does it make what they did right as well?


neither does the kkk. they are still around.
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Re: Gay Boy Scouts

Postby High Sierras » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:21 pm

Glimmerjim wrote:
High Sierras wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:Other than the last paragraph, which to me is just emotionally charged discriminatory generalization, I believe you have made your point very well, HS. Thanks for the insight. :thumbsup:

I didn't generalize... I specifically said the ones who pushed the agenda were being just plain rude. I'm sure there are a lot of homosexuals out there who just want to live their lives in peace -- and don't feel the need to force their views on their neighbors.

Rosa Parks didn't live a life of obsequieous acceptance, either, HS.


Also, Rosa Parks was protesting the policies of the city bus...a public transporation agency that did accept taxpayer monies to conduct business. A better analogy to what happenned to the Scouts would have been Rosa Parks demanding that she and all other black women be allowed to joint the Daughters of the Confederacy (a private organization), and then once in, demand the Daughters of the Confederacy revise their bylaws to state that all confederate soldiers were filthy slave holders and racists.
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Re: Gay Boy Scouts

Postby cartervj » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:47 pm

I'd say you kinda nailed it HS :thumbsup:
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Re: Gay Boy Scouts

Postby SpinnerMan » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:35 pm

Glimmerjim wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:So your view is that the churches and their organizations in America should be public? As in owned by the government?

"Public" does not necessarily mean governmentally-owned in this context, to me anyhow. I just think that an organization should not receive tax-benefits subsidized by ALL taxpayers if it is an exclusionary organization benefitting SOME of the tax-payers. Should NAMBLA (or whatever it is called) be a tax-exempt organization if membership requires a predilection to pedophilia? As I said, I am not conversant enough with tax-codes to understand what constitutes a tax-exempt status, just thinking in layman's terms of what seems right and wrong.


Any not-for-profit organization should be tax exempt, whether it is the New Black Panther Party or my duck hunting club or the DNC or ...

Donations to these organizations should not reduce your tax bill. Do not empower the government to pick and choose. I know a lot of the charities would probably get hurt. How many people would take their junk to Goodwill if they couldn't defraud their fellow taxpayers by claiming wildly inflated values?

I had a boss whose parents would "give" him whatever money they wanted to donate to church, he would then turn around and donate that money plus all the tax saving he got from donating it to the church. While probably technically legal, it's still a scam and I really don't think that is keeping with the spirit of being a good Christian. Gaming the tax code to put more in the plate just seems wrong to me.

The government picking and choosing and making silly and complex rules is a corrupting force in society. If "fudging" the truth results in personal gain, some people are going to do it, and that will prompt more and more because eventually the only ones not gaming the system are the suckers and nobody wants to be the sucker. This is where you end up and pretty much where we are.

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According to the protesters, cheating is endemic in China, so being forced to sit the exams without help put their children at a disadvantage.
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Re: Gay Boy Scouts

Postby Glimmerjim » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:41 pm

High Sierras wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:
High Sierras wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:Other than the last paragraph, which to me is just emotionally charged discriminatory generalization, I believe you have made your point very well, HS. Thanks for the insight. :thumbsup:

I didn't generalize... I specifically said the ones who pushed the agenda were being just plain rude. I'm sure there are a lot of homosexuals out there who just want to live their lives in peace -- and don't feel the need to force their views on their neighbors.

Rosa Parks didn't live a life of obsequieous acceptance, either, HS.


Also, Rosa Parks was protesting the policies of the city bus...a public transporation agency that did accept taxpayer monies to conduct business. A better analogy to what happenned to the Scouts would have been Rosa Parks demanding that she and all other black women be allowed to joint the Daughters of the Confederacy (a private organization), and then once in, demand the Daughters of the Confederacy revise their bylaws to state that all confederate soldiers were filthy slave holders and racists.

The Boy Scouts are not an organization that accepts taxpayer funds to continue operation? As a Tax Exempt organization they are reaping monetary benefits from all tax-payers.The bus system is funded, at least theoretically, by user participation, according to you exactly as is the Boy Scout Association. Why should one be forced to be inclusionary and one allowed to be exclusionary?
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Re: Gay Boy Scouts

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:32 am

Glimmerjim wrote:The Boy Scouts are not an organization that accepts taxpayer funds to continue operation? As a Tax Exempt organization they are reaping monetary benefits from all tax-payers.
Following the law does not cause you to forgo you rights. It does not give the government power to tell you who you may or may not choose to associate with.

Do you not "reap" benefits from the tax code? Do you have ANY deductions? Probably. If you do, what rights do you forfeit as a result of this government benevolence?

I say every person that gets the EITC should be forced to do certain things because they accept these taxpayer funds. What is the difference? Is that not basically the argument used once the government bestows taxpayer benevolence in the form of Medicare and Medicaid and other things and therefore they have the right to do Obamacare and be even more intrusive in the people's lives.

As far as the federal and state government is concerned, the Boy Scouts, the Klan, the DNC, the ... should be treated the same. The local government, if they want to pick and choose, so be it. You can always choose to not live there with relative ease.
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Re: Gay Boy Scouts

Postby ScaupHunter » Thu Jul 11, 2013 8:21 am

Glimmerjim wrote:
High Sierras wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:
High Sierras wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:Other than the last paragraph, which to me is just emotionally charged discriminatory generalization, I believe you have made your point very well, HS. Thanks for the insight. :thumbsup:

I didn't generalize... I specifically said the ones who pushed the agenda were being just plain rude. I'm sure there are a lot of homosexuals out there who just want to live their lives in peace -- and don't feel the need to force their views on their neighbors.

Rosa Parks didn't live a life of obsequieous acceptance, either, HS.


Also, Rosa Parks was protesting the policies of the city bus...a public transporation agency that did accept taxpayer monies to conduct business. A better analogy to what happenned to the Scouts would have been Rosa Parks demanding that she and all other black women be allowed to joint the Daughters of the Confederacy (a private organization), and then once in, demand the Daughters of the Confederacy revise their bylaws to state that all confederate soldiers were filthy slave holders and racists.

The Boy Scouts are not an organization that accepts taxpayer funds to continue operation? As a Tax Exempt organization they are reaping monetary benefits from all tax-payers.The bus system is funded, at least theoretically, by user participation, according to you exactly as is the Boy Scout Association. Why should one be forced to be inclusionary and one allowed to be exclusionary?



Because one is publicly owned by the people. The other is privately owned and not for profit. Have you missed the entire tax code system your entire life? Companies only pay taxes on their profits. This means that we can move the BSA to a S Corp status and while spending more on their accounting they will still not pay taxes. They don't make any profit, Donations / gifts are not taxable for them.
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Re: Gay Boy Scouts

Postby High Sierras » Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:55 am

Glimmerjim wrote:
High Sierras wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:
High Sierras wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:Other than the last paragraph, which to me is just emotionally charged discriminatory generalization, I believe you have made your point very well, HS. Thanks for the insight. :thumbsup:

I didn't generalize... I specifically said the ones who pushed the agenda were being just plain rude. I'm sure there are a lot of homosexuals out there who just want to live their lives in peace -- and don't feel the need to force their views on their neighbors.

Rosa Parks didn't live a life of obsequieous acceptance, either, HS.

Also, Rosa Parks was protesting the policies of the city bus...a public transporation agency that did accept taxpayer monies to conduct business. A better analogy to what happenned to the Scouts would have been Rosa Parks demanding that she and all other black women be allowed to joint the Daughters of the Confederacy (a private organization), and then once in, demand the Daughters of the Confederacy revise their bylaws to state that all confederate soldiers were filthy slave holders and racists.


The Boy Scouts are not an organization that accepts taxpayer funds to continue operation?
No, the Boy Scouts neither accepts nor receives taxpayer funds to operate. The bulk of the budget is paid in scout dues; the balance is made up from private donations and a little on popcorn and gear sales.

About the closest I've heard anyone link the BSA to taxpayer funds is the DoD gave the scouts the 'right' to use fort AP Hill for 4 weeks once every 4 years. Oh, and by the way... the national BSA paid over a hundred thousand dollars to improve the fort... they paid to put in water lines, sewage lines, electrical distribution network, bathrooms, showers, a mess hall.... all on the Scouts dime, donated to the base for the millitary to use all year long (all four years long, to be exact) so once every four years the Scouts can hold the national jamboree there for four weeks. And before you say something to the effect that all the food and water is taxpayer funded; the individual scouts pay $2500 each to go to Jamboree. Dads, Scoutmasters, and adult staff have to pay $2000 each, to cover the cost of food, water, electricity and insurance (to camp in tents for a month). So much for recieving taxpayer monies.

The BSA haters say that the Jamboree costs the taxpayers $2 million per event in personnel and material costs. The DoD uses the event as a means of on hands training for their Corps of Engineers, Mil Police, Medical staff, etc. to be able to provide shelter, food, and sanitation for a large (upwards of 50,000 boys go to Jamboree) group of people in case of a natural disaster. I'd be willing to bet the DoD sees it as a brgain, considering how much training costs. Granted, taking care of 50,000 self-sufficient scouts has got to be way easier than taking care of 2,000 of New Orleans finest citizens after Katrina, but the DoD does get some training out of it.... they probably learn as much from the scouts on how to do it as they do from the event itself.

Glimmerjim wrote: As a Tax Exempt organization they are reaping monetary benefits from all tax-payers.

So...are you saying that a charity not paying income on donations is reaping monetary benefits from taxpayers? How? As a tax exempt organization the Boy Scouts are not paying income taxes on the donations they solicit. doesn't sound like much of a monetary benefit to me. Just like the Sierra Club or Planned Parenthood. Do you think they are reaping monetary benefits from all taxpayers too? Should we recind Planned Parenthood from tax exempt status because it violates my concience by spending my taxpayer money to pay for an act I find morally repugnant? How about Ducks Unlimited? I'm sure some vegan out there thinks what DU does to promote the murder of featherpersons should not be tax exempt either...

Glimmerjim wrote:The bus system is funded, at least theoretically, by user participation, according to you exactly as is the Boy Scout Association. Why should one be forced to be inclusionary and one allowed to be exclusionary?

Because the Boy Scouts are a private organization, the city bus is a governmental agency. Governmental agencies are mandated to be inclusionary. Private organizations can choose to include or exclude whomever they want, for whatever reason they want. Freedom of association and all.
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Re: Gay Boy Scouts

Postby Glimmerjim » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:10 am

ScaupHunter wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:
High Sierras wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:
High Sierras wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:Other than the last paragraph, which to me is just emotionally charged discriminatory generalization, I believe you have made your point very well, HS. Thanks for the insight. :thumbsup:

I didn't generalize... I specifically said the ones who pushed the agenda were being just plain rude. I'm sure there are a lot of homosexuals out there who just want to live their lives in peace -- and don't feel the need to force their views on their neighbors.

Rosa Parks didn't live a life of obsequieous acceptance, either, HS.


Also, Rosa Parks was protesting the policies of the city bus...a public transporation agency that did accept taxpayer monies to conduct business. A better analogy to what happenned to the Scouts would have been Rosa Parks demanding that she and all other black women be allowed to joint the Daughters of the Confederacy (a private organization), and then once in, demand the Daughters of the Confederacy revise their bylaws to state that all confederate soldiers were filthy slave holders and racists.

The Boy Scouts are not an organization that accepts taxpayer funds to continue operation? As a Tax Exempt organization they are reaping monetary benefits from all tax-payers.The bus system is funded, at least theoretically, by user participation, according to you exactly as is the Boy Scout Association. Why should one be forced to be inclusionary and one allowed to be exclusionary?



Because one is publicly owned by the people. The other is privately owned and not for profit. Have you missed the entire tax code system your entire life? Companies only pay taxes on their profits. This means that we can move the BSA to a S Corp status and while spending more on their accounting they will still not pay taxes. They don't make any profit, Donations / gifts are not taxable for them.

I have tried desperately to do so, Scaup! :beer:
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Re: Gay Boy Scouts

Postby Glimmerjim » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:23 am

Glimmerjim wrote: As a Tax Exempt organization they are reaping monetary benefits from all tax-payers.

[quote="High Sierras"] So...are you saying that a charity not paying income on donations is reaping monetary benefits from taxpayers? How? As a tax exempt organization the Boy Scouts are not paying income taxes on the donations they solicit. doesn't sound like much of a monetary benefit to me. Just like the Sierra Club or Planned Parenthood. Do you think they are reaping monetary benefits from all taxpayers too? Should we recind Planned Parenthood from tax exempt status because it violates my concience by spending my taxpayer money to pay for an act I find morally repugnant? How about Ducks Unlimited? I'm sure some vegan out there thinks what DU does to promote the murder of featherpersons should not be tax exempt either...[quote]

As I stated before, HS, you are well-versed in the subject of this debate and nave made many good points. In re say Planned Parenthodd or DU, though, I have never heard of them stating that blacks, Asians, homosexuals, transvestites, sword-swallowers or bird call imitators are not allowed to become members or utilize their services. That is the gist of this debate. And I do further believe that any tax-exempt organization is reaping benefits from tax-payers. It takes funds to run the govt., and the citizens are the only source of this income. Exempting a certain group from it allows them to reap the benefits of the society while absorbing none of the costs. Perhaps you can provide me with the error in my thinking along these lines. I am frankly running just on my conception of common-sense with no research or appreciable amount of prior knowledge contributing to it. Can you provide other examples of tax-exempt organizations that have mandates on which citizens can become members and which can't based on inclusion in a group to which we already designate anti-discriminatory laws?
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Re: Gay Boy Scouts

Postby assateague » Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:06 pm

The NAACP.
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Re: Gay Boy Scouts

Postby ohioboy » Fri Jul 12, 2013 4:55 pm

assateague wrote:The NAACP.


Are you saying white people can't join?
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Re: Gay Boy Scouts

Postby assateague » Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:22 pm

It was a joke. I honestly have no idea.
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Re: Gay Boy Scouts

Postby ohioboy » Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:25 pm

assateague wrote:It was a joke. I honestly have no idea.


Ok. They can and do.
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Re: Gay Boy Scouts

Postby assateague » Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:10 pm

Now that you mention it, and I think for a bit, didn't they have a white president not too long ago?
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Re: Gay Boy Scouts

Postby assateague » Fri Jul 12, 2013 6:13 pm

But back to the point, I think most churches are like that. (Or maybe not all). But I know for a fact the large majority, if not all, Baptist churches you cannot join unless you undergo adult baptism and accept Christ as your Savior. So that leaves out members of other religions. Can they attend church and functions? Yep. But they cannot be members of the church until they have done so, but those churches are tax exempt.
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Re: Gay Boy Scouts

Postby Glimmerjim » Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:52 pm

assateague wrote:But back to the point, I think most churches are like that. (Or maybe not all). But I know for a fact the large majority, if not all, Baptist churches you cannot join unless you undergo adult baptism and accept Christ as your Savior. So that leaves out members of other religions. Can they attend church and functions? Yep. But they cannot be members of the church until they have done so, but those churches are tax exempt.

That is an entirely different concept, AT. As you stated, anyone is free to attend the church and the church's functions. They simply mandate that to be considered as a member, you must be willing to make voluntary commitments. No different than an oath taken when joining the Armed Services or to become a citizen. Or the oath taken by a scout....There's still no exclusion of any, based on personal, non-voluntary inclusion in a group that has been constitutionally forbidden to discriminate against.
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Re: Gay Boy Scouts

Postby boney fingers » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:31 pm

The NFL is tax exempt, but they wont let me join.
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Re: Gay Boy Scouts

Postby ohioboy » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:18 pm

assateague wrote:But back to the point, I think most churches are like that. (Or maybe not all). But I know for a fact the large majority, if not all, Baptist churches you cannot join unless you undergo adult baptism and accept Christ as your Savior. So that leaves out members of other religions. Can they attend church and functions? Yep. But they cannot be members of the church until they have done so, but those churches are tax exempt.


a small part of me wants to try to attend an "event".
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Re: Gay Boy Scouts

Postby assateague » Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:11 am

As was said, everybody is welcome. But technically speaking (and that's what we're doing here), you may not join the organization unless you are a Christian. Period.

So is that discriminatory?

To the best of my knowledge, nobody ever said gays could not attend Boy Scout events, only that they couldn't join. How is what I said any different?
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Re: Gay Boy Scouts

Postby ohioboy » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:08 am

assateague wrote:As was said, everybody is welcome. But technically speaking (and that's what we're doing here), you may not join the organization unless you are a Christian. Period.

So is that discriminatory?

To the best of my knowledge, nobody ever said gays could not attend Boy Scout events, only that they couldn't join. How is what I said any different?


i would say it is discriminatory according to today's standards.

oh, and you cant just come watch boys play in the woods. weird.
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Re: Gay Boy Scouts

Postby ohioboy » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:12 am

assateague wrote:As was said, everybody is welcome. But technically speaking (and that's what we're doing here), you may not join the organization unless you are a Christian. Period.

So is that discriminatory?

To the best of my knowledge, nobody ever said gays could not attend Boy Scout events, only that they couldn't join. How is what I said any different?


why dont you try to "watch" your local girl scouts.


"no. its ok. i'm just watching." nno!:
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Re: Gay Boy Scouts

Postby jehler » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:21 am

ohioboy wrote:
assateague wrote:As was said, everybody is welcome. But technically speaking (and that's what we're doing here), you may not join the organization unless you are a Christian. Period.

So is that discriminatory?

To the best of my knowledge, nobody ever said gays could not attend Boy Scout events, only that they couldn't join. How is what I said any different?


why dont you try to "watch" your local girl scouts.


"no. its ok. i'm just watching." nno!:

Bet your ass I went and watched the local Girl Scouts before inlet my daughter get involved, I was allowed
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Re: Gay Boy Scouts

Postby ohioboy » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:25 am

jehler wrote:
ohioboy wrote:
assateague wrote:As was said, everybody is welcome. But technically speaking (and that's what we're doing here), you may not join the organization unless you are a Christian. Period.

So is that discriminatory?

To the best of my knowledge, nobody ever said gays could not attend Boy Scout events, only that they couldn't join. How is what I said any different?


why dont you try to "watch" your local girl scouts.


"no. its ok. i'm just watching." nno!:

Bet your ass I went and watched the local Girl Scouts before inlet my daughter get involved, I was allowed


no, just roll up with a coke. sit down. cuffs before the coke gets warm.
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Re: Gay Boy Scouts

Postby jehler » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:45 am

ohioboy wrote:
jehler wrote:
ohioboy wrote:
assateague wrote:As was said, everybody is welcome. But technically speaking (and that's what we're doing here), you may not join the organization unless you are a Christian. Period.

So is that discriminatory?

To the best of my knowledge, nobody ever said gays could not attend Boy Scout events, only that they couldn't join. How is what I said any different?


why dont you try to "watch" your local girl scouts.


"no. its ok. i'm just watching." nno!:

Bet your ass I went and watched the local Girl Scouts before inlet my daughter get involved, I was allowed


no, just roll up with a coke. sit down. cuffs before the coke gets warm.

I didn't announce my presence, just walked into the cafeteria where they were having a meeting and sat down
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