This day, a century and a half later

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This day, a century and a half later

Postby blackduckdog2 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:06 am

Faulkner's take on time and Pickett's Charge, which was on the third day, I know. But today marks the 150 year anniversary of the battle
(this one is close for me... We had folks on Little Round Top with Chamberlain)

"It's all now you see. Yesterday won't be over until tomorrow and tomorrow began ten thousand years ago. For every Southern boy fourteen years old, not once but whenever he wants it, there is the instant when it's still not yet two o'clock on that July afternoon in 1863, the brigades are in position behind the rail fence, the guns are laid and ready in the woods and the furled flags are already loosened to break out and Pickett himself with his long oiled ringlets and his hat in one hand probably and his sword in the other looking up the hill waiting for Longstreet to give the word and it's all in the balance, it hasn't happened yet, it hasn't even begun yet, it not only hasn't begun yet but there is still time for it not to begin against that position and those circumstances which made more men than Garnett and Kemper and Armistead and Wilcox look grave yet it's going to begin, we all know that, we have come too far with too much at stake and that moment doesn't need even a fourteen-year-old boy to think This time. Maybe this time with all this much to lose and all this much to gain: Pennsylvania, Maryland, the world, the golden dome of Washington itself to crown with desperate and unbelievable victory the desperate gamble, the cast made two years ago; or to anyone who ever sailed a skiff under a quilt sail, the moment in 1492 when somebody thought This is it: the absolute edge of no return, to turn back now and make home or sail irrevocably on and either find land or plunge over the world's roaring rim."
............................................................................................................................................................
Only in America, man..........Only in America
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Re: This day, half a century later

Postby assateague » Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:47 am

Gettysburg is an amazing place to visit. I've been there many, many times, and each time it astounds me. The courage (or stupidity, whichever way you look at seems applicable, to me) it took to simply stand and walk, both at Gettysburg and countless other places, into what probably felt like certain death was amazing.
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Re: This day, a century and a half later

Postby clampdaddy » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:12 pm

Where you been BDD? Hope all is well.
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Re: This day, a century and a half later

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:37 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:this one is close for me... We had folks on Little Round Top with Chamberlain
I knew you were old, but damn.

Serious question, what do you mean be "we" in this regard. Granted, we Americans, we Pennsylvanians, we ... did, but this just struck me as very odd. Why would it be close if it happened generations before you existed? Good or bad, the behavior of our ancestors that far back is not "close" to you.

WWII is not close to me because my grandfather whom I knew very well served (no fighting to my knowledge because he arrived in Europe towards the end, but did clear up at concentration camps) or even Vietnam because a close family member was a marine combat veteran that did a lot of fighting and was badly injured with a short time left in his tour, but is fine now. I don't understand this line of thinking. It's a cool piece of trivia, but why is it something more than that? Or maybe that is all you meant.

assateague wrote:Gettysburg is an amazing place to visit. I've been there many, many times, and each time it astounds me. The courage (or stupidity, whichever way you look at seems applicable, to me) it took to simply stand and walk, both at Gettysburg and countless other places, into what probably felt like certain death was amazing.
x2

All those types of battles amaze me. I would like to hope that I had that courage, but I am so grateful I have never had to find out.
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Re: This day, a century and a half later

Postby vincentpa » Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:43 pm

BDD2,
Are you writing from personal experience?
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Re: This day, a century and a half later

Postby Indawoods » Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:14 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:Faulkner's take on time and Pickett's Charge, which was on the third day, I know. But today marks the 150 year anniversary of the battle
(this one is close for me... We had folks on Little Round Top with Chamberlain)

"It's all now you see. Yesterday won't be over until tomorrow and tomorrow began ten thousand years ago. For every Southern boy fourteen years old, not once but whenever he wants it, there is the instant when it's still not yet two o'clock on that July afternoon in 1863, the brigades are in position behind the rail fence, the guns are laid and ready in the woods and the furled flags are already loosened to break out and Pickett himself with his long oiled ringlets and his hat in one hand probably and his sword in the other looking up the hill waiting for Longstreet to give the word and it's all in the balance, it hasn't happened yet, it hasn't even begun yet, it not only hasn't begun yet but there is still time for it not to begin against that position and those circumstances which made more men than Garnett and Kemper and Armistead and Wilcox look grave yet it's going to begin, we all know that, we have come too far with too much at stake and that moment doesn't need even a fourteen-year-old boy to think This time. Maybe this time with all this much to lose and all this much to gain: Pennsylvania, Maryland, the world, the golden dome of Washington itself to crown with desperate and unbelievable victory the desperate gamble, the cast made two years ago; or to anyone who ever sailed a skiff under a quilt sail, the moment in 1492 when somebody thought This is it: the absolute edge of no return, to turn back now and make home or sail irrevocably on and either find land or plunge over the world's roaring rim."
............................................................................................................................................................
Only in America, man..........Only in America


You would delight in the works of Tom Kelly. I suggest 'The Tenth Legion' and 'Better on a Rising Tide' to start. (the latter if you want to start with one).

here http://www.tomkellyinc.net/catalog/

Also at Amazon and elsewhere.

His works are an amalgam of forestry, the army, southern folk, fatherhood and turkey hunting told with a rare gift few authors posess. I apologize for not recommending him sooner.
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Re: This day, a century and a half later

Postby Indaswamp » Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:17 pm

What up BDD2! Where you been?

..and X2 on Tom Kelly, you will enjoy his writing style.
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Re: This day, a century and a half later

Postby blackduckdog2 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:38 am

Woods&Swamp....... Southern storytelling's one of the finest things US culture's got to offer, from Brer Rabbit through Thomas Wolfe & (hopefully) Tom Kelly. I'm on it :thumbsup:
AT......I appreciate your not going off on Faulkner's parenthetical half-assedness
Spinner......It's a Family Thang
VP......damn skippy I'm writing from experience, and I'm still pissed that Faulkner gets all the credit. Whippersnapper. But that ain't nothin'......you should hear me when I get to holding forth on the Peloponnesian and Punic Wars
CD......I'm good, thanks
Anyone else.............I'm crazy busy editing my 89 year old father's book that he finally finished, and I'm avoiding politics like the plague because he's farther right than even you nut jobs, and we're already fighting over the necessary changes he's gotta make (which are not political, but I'm just trying to keep the conflict within the range of workability). So that's why I'm not around, and won't be for a spell
It's a historical novel he's based on the King Phillip's War Era, about which he definitely knows his stuff, but he's clueless about people and what actually motivates them, so to say his characterization is thin would be a generous assessment. I think this is a little like defending a family member in court, when you know they did it........
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Re: This day, a century and a half later

Postby SpinnerMan » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:08 am

blackduckdog2 wrote:Spinner......It's a Family Thang
What does that mean? If you had family running Auschwitz would it be close to you? That's the part I don't get. It wouldn't make you or your family any different. It's like the silly statements about Obama not being authentic because he doesn't have slave blood. Or the royal bloodline. Or whatever a family thang is.
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Re: This day, a century and a half later

Postby WTN10 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:32 am

SpinnerMan wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:Spinner......It's a Family Thang
What does that mean? If you had family running Auschwitz would it be close to you? That's the part I don't get. It wouldn't make you or your family any different. It's like the silly statements about Obama not being authentic because he doesn't have slave blood. Or the royal bloodline. Or whatever a family thang is.


I would imagine someone with family in Auschwitz would feel a certain closeness with it.

My family has been in the South since the 1700's or earlier. I have Confederate soldiers on both sides of my family and list Nathan Bedford Forrest as an ancestor. Confederate Park is 300 yards away from me as I sit. Shiloh is a couple hours drive from me. BDD2 is a history-loving dude, so I can understand his affinity for it. In the South, we are surrounded by memorials to Confederate soldiers and battles. We still feel the effects of Reconstruction (Mississippi still hasn't recovered). Racial tension still exists in areas. And many people still take pride in the fact that we told the Federal government to go screw itself. Had England or France provided support, and if we hadn't of lost Stonewall, I'd probably be in a different country right now. People hold Stonewall and Lee in very high regard, really as the last of a gentile class of man that no longer exists.
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Re: This day, a century and a half later

Postby ohioboy » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:34 am

SpinnerMan wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:Spinner......It's a Family Thang
What does that mean? If you had family running Auschwitz would it be close to you? That's the part I don't get. It wouldn't make you or your family any different. It's like the silly statements about Obama not being authentic because he doesn't have slave blood. Or the royal bloodline. Or whatever a family thang is.


spinner is back. :welcome: carry on.... :lol3:
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Re: This day, a century and a half later

Postby Chilidawg » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:44 am

If you stand on Cemetery Ridge, at the Copse of Trees, you can look down across the wheat fields to the distant tree line.

The thought of charging across that vast distance, uphill under the July sun, is incomprehensible.

How could Lee so easily forget the lessons of Fredricksburg?
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Re: This day, a century and a half later

Postby SpinnerMan » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:47 am

OK Auschwitz was probably a bad example because people are still alive.

Do I feel any less closeness to the Founding Fathers because to my knowledge, I don't have a single ancestor that was in the U.S. at our founding. Of course not. It would be an interesting bit of trivia if George Washington was a direct descendant, but nothing more.

And if the south had won, you might well live in a different country than the one you think. Would we have stopped the Soviets? The Germans? The Japanese? Image But of course, it would have worked out well.If you want to see racial tensions, it's not a southern thing at all. The racial problems of the 50's and 60's would have not happened even with all the immigration of blacks to the north that most likely would have been prevented or at least restricted significantly.

However, living in those conditions from birth makes you no closer than if you have a great, great, great grandparent that had something to do with something significant that happened long ago. Although, I can see how Elizabeth Warren has a closeness with the Native Americans because she has some distant relative that was Native American :no:
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Re: This day, a century and a half later

Postby ohioboy » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:52 am

WTN10 wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:Spinner......It's a Family Thang
What does that mean? If you had family running Auschwitz would it be close to you? That's the part I don't get. It wouldn't make you or your family any different. It's like the silly statements about Obama not being authentic because he doesn't have slave blood. Or the royal bloodline. Or whatever a family thang is.


I would imagine someone with family in Auschwitz would feel a certain closeness with it.

My family has been in the South since the 1700's or earlier. I have Confederate soldiers on both sides of my family and list Nathan Bedford Forrest as an ancestor. Confederate Park is 300 yards away from me as I sit. Shiloh is a couple hours drive from me. BDD2 is a history-loving dude, so I can understand his affinity for it. In the South, we are surrounded by memorials to Confederate soldiers and battles. We still feel the effects of Reconstruction (Mississippi still hasn't recovered). Racial tension still exists in areas. And many people still take pride in the fact that we told the Federal government to go screw itself. Had England or France provided support, and if we hadn't of lost Stonewall, I'd probably be in a different country right now. People hold Stonewall and Lee in very high regard, really as the last of a gentile class of man that no longer exists.


by support you mean a means to make anything? the south was pretty much screwed from the beginning.
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Re: This day, a century and a half later

Postby Chilidawg » Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:00 am

WTN10 wrote:We still feel the effects of Reconstruction (Mississippi still hasn't recovered). Racial tension still exists in areas. And many people still take pride in the fact that we told the Federal government to go screw itself.


Mississippi takes far more money from the federal government then they send.

Had England or France provided support, and if we hadn't of lost Stonewall, I'd probably be in a different country right now.


That imaginary country would be much, much worse than anything you could say about the United States of America today.



People hold Stonewall and Lee in very high regard, really as the last of a gentile class of man that no longer exists.


Yeah, they're called "Slaveowners."








(Edited)
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Re: This day, a century and a half later

Postby Chilidawg » Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:13 am

The south would not have "won."

At best they could have achieved a stalemate like what you see in Korea today.

Such an outcome would have further entrenched slavery into the southern economy.

In the long run, slavery as the basis of an economy is unsustainable and would have utterly destroyed the south.
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Re: This day, a century and a half later

Postby assateague » Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:14 am

Your grasp of history is just about about as good as your grasp of law. Which is to say, not very.
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Re: This day, a century and a half later

Postby WTN10 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:18 am

Mississippi takes far more money from the federal government then they send.


Fact.

If they had recovered, one would expect them to give more than they take. I'm quite interested to see what point you were fumbling to make when you failed to think that one through.

That imaginary country would be much, much worse than anything you could say about the United States of America today.


Evidence?

Yeah, they're called "Slaveowners."


From the conservative rag Wikipedia:

This [letter from Lee] was the prevailing view among most religious people of Lee's class in the border states. They believed that slavery existed because God willed it and they thought it would end when God so ruled. The time and the means were not theirs to decide, conscious though they were of the ill-effects of Negro slavery on both races. Lee shared these convictions of his neighbors without having come in contact with the worst evils of African bondage. He spent no considerable time in any state south of Virginia from the day he left Fort Pulaski in 1831 until he went to Texas in 1856. All his reflective years had been passed in the North or in the border states. He had never been among the blacks on a cotton or rice plantation. At Arlington, the servants had been notoriously indolent, their master's master. Lee, in short, was only acquainted with slavery at its best, and he judged it accordingly. At the same time, he was under no illusion regarding the aims of the Abolitionists or the effect of their agitation.


According to the same source, Jackson owned 6 slaves, all of which were gone by the time the Civil War began.

Graciously correcting your ignorance,

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Re: This day, a century and a half later

Postby WTN10 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:20 am

Chilidawg wrote:In the long run, slavery as the basis of an economy is unsustainable and would have utterly destroyed the south.


Truth. Many think it would have been abolished independently of Federal authority soon thereafter at any rate, which is why many question why Lincoln "freed" only Southern slaves...
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Re: This day, a century and a half later

Postby vincentpa » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:45 am

blackduckdog2 wrote:Woods&Swamp....... Southern storytelling's one of the finest things US culture's got to offer, from Brer Rabbit through Thomas Wolfe & (hopefully) Tom Kelly. I'm on it :thumbsup:
AT......I appreciate your not going off on Faulkner's parenthetical half-assedness
Spinner......It's a Family Thang
VP......damn skippy I'm writing from experience, and I'm still pissed that Faulkner gets all the credit. Whippersnapper. But that ain't nothin'......you should hear me when I get to holding forth on the Peloponnesian and Punic Wars
CD......I'm good, thanks
Anyone else.............I'm crazy busy editing my 89 year old father's book that he finally finished, and I'm avoiding politics like the plague because he's farther right than even you nut jobs, and we're already fighting over the necessary changes he's gotta make (which are not political, but I'm just trying to keep the conflict within the range of workability). So that's why I'm not around, and won't be for a spell
It's a historical novel he's based on the King Phillip's War Era, about which he definitely knows his stuff, but he's clueless about people and what actually motivates them, so to say his characterization is thin would be a generous assessment. I think this is a little like defending a family member in court, when you know they did it........
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Sounds like it's a good kind of busy. Let us know when the book is going to be published. I'd like to read it. Like I said, you probably missed your true calling as a writer.
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Re: This day, a century and a half later

Postby SpinnerMan » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:59 am

WTN10 wrote:
Chilidawg wrote:In the long run, slavery as the basis of an economy is unsustainable and would have utterly destroyed the south.


Truth. Many think it would have been abolished independently of Federal authority soon thereafter at any rate, which is why many question why Lincoln "freed" only Southern slaves...

They think or they would like to think it would because that is a more satisfying thing to believe, especially if you are a southerner. I mean, you sure as hell don't want to believe if the south had won slavery would still exist, which I believe is absurd to believe. However, would it have taken 5 years, 50 years, or 150 years? Who knows? I think without the war, it ends quicker than with the war, especially after Lincoln used the freeing of the slaves as a tactic to win the war. There likely would have been a natural push back like what we saw with Jim Crow laws, the Klan, and much of the things that prolonged racial division longer than if slavery had not been ended by a bitter war.
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Re: This day, a century and a half later

Postby ohioboy » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:06 am

WTN10 wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:Spinner......It's a Family Thang
What does that mean? If you had family running Auschwitz would it be close to you? That's the part I don't get. It wouldn't make you or your family any different. It's like the silly statements about Obama not being authentic because he doesn't have slave blood. Or the royal bloodline. Or whatever a family thang is.


I would imagine someone with family in Auschwitz would feel a certain closeness with it.

My family has been in the South since the 1700's or earlier. I have Confederate soldiers on both sides of my family and list Nathan Bedford Forrest as an ancestor. Confederate Park is 300 yards away from me as I sit. Shiloh is a couple hours drive from me. BDD2 is a history-loving dude, so I can understand his affinity for it. In the South, we are surrounded by memorials to Confederate soldiers and battles. We still feel the effects of Reconstruction (Mississippi still hasn't recovered). Racial tension still exists in areas. And many people still take pride in the fact that we told the Federal government to go screw itself. Had England or France provided support, and if we hadn't of lost Stonewall, I'd probably be in a different country right now. People hold Stonewall and Lee in very high regard, really as the last of a gentile class of man that no longer exists.


the south wanted reconstruction to end. not saying it was very well managed, but the south wanted the north out of there asap.
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Re: This day, a century and a half later

Postby WTN10 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:43 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:
WTN10 wrote:
Chilidawg wrote:In the long run, slavery as the basis of an economy is unsustainable and would have utterly destroyed the south.


Truth. Many think it would have been abolished independently of Federal authority soon thereafter at any rate, which is why many question why Lincoln "freed" only Southern slaves...

They think or they would like to think it would because that is a more satisfying thing to believe, especially if you are a southerner. I mean, you sure as hell don't want to believe if the south had won slavery would still exist, which I believe is absurd to believe. However, would it have taken 5 years, 50 years, or 150 years? Who knows? I think without the war, it ends quicker than with the war, especially after Lincoln used the freeing of the slaves as a tactic to win the war. There likely would have been a natural push back like what we saw with Jim Crow laws, the Klan, and much of the things that prolonged racial division longer than if slavery had not been ended by a bitter war.


Of course it ended quicker with the war, but at what cost? The economic health of the South and the social well being of African-Americans. And why? There was no benevolent North who was a friend to the slave. There were benevolent abolitionists; but the average Yankee could have cared less. It was about money in the form of taxes, and that's what was worth the cost.

The issue of slavery itself could have been solved in a much different fashion. England required no war to solve the issue, just inventive parliamentary tactics. As for how long it would have taken? I have no idea.
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Re: This day, a century and a half later

Postby dudejcb » Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:49 pm

July 3, 1863 the "City of Trees," (as opposed to the sagebrush desert of the Snake River plain) Boise Idaho founded. Soon to be a resupply and jumping off point for many discouraged southerners turned miners/robbers who went on to found their own lil' piece of southern leaning Idaho (Atlanta, Dixie) and a bunch of small white supremecist compounds.
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Re: This day, a century and a half later

Postby Chilidawg » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:30 pm

assateague wrote:Your grasp of history is just about about as good as your grasp of law. Which is to say, not very.
still being an ornery butt, I see

Please enlighten us all with your all encompassing wisdom, mr. 50/50.
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