Navigatable water....?

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Navigatable water....?

Postby redsled600 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:23 pm

So let's keep this informative and helpful guys... I know there's gonna be some guy in a club who's gonna reply on here all pissed thy some guy boated onto "his" hunting area after it flooded out but let's keep the bickering to a minimum! Let's not have this turn into like every other discussion on the legality of hunting flooded public waterways covering private property.... With that said I was hoping someone could shine some clear answers for everyone as to whether or not you can hunt flooded water over private property???
My understanding of California law and federal law is that public huntable water is open to any recreational use within the shores of the water but must be navigable by boat. This includes when the waterway is flooded above private property since the landowner does not own the water. Correct?
Can you anchor onto private property?
Any help will help everyone! Thanks
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Re: Navigatable water....?

Postby QH's Paw » Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:11 pm

The term "Navigable water", as a federal legal term, refers to a classification of a given water. It is not automatic and must be applied and proven.
When the federal term is applied, it only applies to the water up to the "mean high water line". the mean high water line is basically defined as where the brush line starts. Again, with regard to the federal application of this it means private property fields are almost always excluded.
Now, if you are actually interested in your states laws on public access versus private property, then the term "navigable water" might have a different meaning and laws may be applied to the situation differently.
Is that clear as mud?
If you are specifically interested in California law, with concerns to public vs private, I'd say you'll be more likely to find an answer on that state's forum, if you can keep them from bickering that is. Good luck.
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Re: Navigatable water....?

Postby QH's Paw » Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:16 pm

redsled600 wrote:So let's keep this informative and helpful guys... I know there's gonna be some guy in a club who's gonna reply on here all pissed thy some guy boated onto "his" hunting area after it flooded out but let's keep the bickering to a minimum! Let's not have this turn into like every other discussion on the legality of hunting flooded public waterways covering private property.... With that said I was hoping someone could shine some clear answers for everyone as to whether or not you can hunt flooded water over private property???
My understanding of California law and federal law is that public huntable water is open to any recreational use within the shores of the water but must be navigable by boat. This includes when the waterway is flooded above private property since the landowner does not own the water. Correct?
Can you anchor onto private property?
Any help will help everyone! Thanks

Oh sorry, I forgot to say. No, you are incorrect by federal standards.
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Re: Navigatable water....?

Postby luie b » Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:46 am

I think in Illinois you can navigate the flooded area with your boat but you may not anchor then you would be trespassing. So you could pretty much not hunt it, but you could fish it.
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Re: Navigatable water....?

Postby OHIODUCKA5 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:26 am

Same deal in Ohio you are not tresspassing as long as you are floating ,any time you touch bottom you are on private property. So no anchoring wading or tying off to anything
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Re: Navigatable water....?

Postby Huntfish12 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:54 am

Don't have to worry about that here in DE, there is no flooded timber, or Ducks..
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Re: Navigatable water....?

Postby Dep6 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:54 am

I don't know of any state that would allow you to hunt flooded private land. QH hit the nail on the head with the Federal rule, most states follow that thinking or something close to it.
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Re: Navigatable water....?

Postby ScaupHunter » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:31 am

You could not hunt the private property in Washington. Flooded or not. Waterways are only considered navigable to the mean high water mark of the waterway. You can access any public waterway between the mean high water marks by foot, by boat, etc.... You can anchor, fish, hunt them etc..... Outside of mean high water is private property and you would be trespassing.
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Re: Navigatable water....?

Postby Underradar » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:14 am

You are all wrong. Federal case law states that you can only hunt within the LOW water mark. Its the Shumate case.
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Re: Navigatable water....?

Postby ScaupHunter » Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:22 pm

Federal law don't mean spit in state waters councilor. Mean high water it is ( in Washington State ).

In Washington state we have these things in our major rivers near the coast. They are called tides. They are caused by the moons gravitational pull on the earth. I have challenged more than one federal LEO to show me where low water as defined by law was located. I have as yet to find one who could do it.
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Re: Navigatable water....?

Postby Underradar » Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:57 pm

ScaupHunter wrote:Federal law don't mean spit in state waters councilor. Mean high water it is ( in Washington State ).

In Washington state we have these things in our major rivers near the coast. They are called tides. They are caused by the moons gravitational pull on the earth. I have challenged more than one federal LEO to show me where low water as defined by law was located. I have as yet to find one who could do it.

He need only pull out his navigation chart. And a gps depth finder. And then, his citation book.
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Re: Navigatable water....?

Postby La. Hunter » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:12 pm

Underradar wrote:You are all wrong. Federal case law states that you can only hunt within the LOW water mark. Its the Shumate case.


Isn't it between the low water and normal high water mark, with high water mark being defined as the point where non aquatic vegetation begins?

Just curious because its been a while since I read the ruling.
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Re: Navigatable water....?

Postby WTN10 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:18 pm

I just ask Tyrone. He knows everything.
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Re: Navigatable water....?

Postby Indaswamp » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:54 pm

OHIODUCKA5 wrote:Same deal in Ohio you are not tresspassing as long as you are floating ,any time you touch bottom you are on private property. So no anchoring wading or tying off to anything

...and no decoy weights touching bottom either....
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Re: Navigatable water....?

Postby La. Hunter » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:11 pm

La. Hunter wrote:
Underradar wrote:You are all wrong. Federal case law states that you can only hunt within the LOW water mark. Its the Shumate case.


Isn't it between the low water and normal high water mark, with high water mark being defined as the point where non aquatic vegetation begins?

Just curious because its been a while since I read the ruling.


UR is right about below the low water mark. I had it mixed up with the banks of navigable rivers are private things that are subject to public use, as long as it is for navigational purposes, not hunting and fishing.. This is defined as lands lying between the ordinary low and high marks, with the high water mark being defined as the point where non aquatic vegetation begins.
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Re: Navigatable water....?

Postby D Comeaux » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:13 pm

La. Hunter wrote:
La. Hunter wrote:
Underradar wrote:You are all wrong. Federal case law states that you can only hunt within the LOW water mark. Its the Shumate case.


Isn't it between the low water and normal high water mark, with high water mark being defined as the point where non aquatic vegetation begins?

Just curious because its been a while since I read the ruling.


UR is right about below the low water mark. I had it mixed up with the banks of navigable rivers are private things that are subject to public use, as long as it is for navigational purposes, not hunting and fishing.. This is defined as lands lying between the ordinary low and high marks, with the high water mark being defined as the point where non aquatic vegetation begins.


That's pretty much as I understand it.
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Re: Navigatable water....?

Postby La. Hunter » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:15 pm

D Comeaux wrote:
La. Hunter wrote:
La. Hunter wrote:
Underradar wrote:You are all wrong. Federal case law states that you can only hunt within the LOW water mark. Its the Shumate case.


Isn't it between the low water and normal high water mark, with high water mark being defined as the point where non aquatic vegetation begins?

Just curious because its been a while since I read the ruling.


UR is right about below the low water mark. I had it mixed up with the banks of navigable rivers are private things that are subject to public use, as long as it is for navigational purposes, not hunting and fishing.. This is defined as lands lying between the ordinary low and high marks, with the high water mark being defined as the point where non aquatic vegetation begins.


That's pretty much as I understand it.


I've had to many beers and should have just accepted that UR was right. Instead, I responded and have been thinking about it since and realized I was mixed up. Thank God I only deal with mineral and criminal law and don't have to remember the rest of it.
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Re: Navigatable water....?

Postby ScaupHunter » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:42 pm

Underradar wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:Federal law don't mean spit in state waters councilor. Mean high water it is ( in Washington State ).

In Washington state we have these things in our major rivers near the coast. They are called tides. They are caused by the moons gravitational pull on the earth. I have challenged more than one federal LEO to show me where low water as defined by law was located. I have as yet to find one who could do it.

He need only pull out his navigation chart. And a gps depth finder. And then, his citation book.


Tide charts are not that accurate. Low water varies by tide, by date, and by season around here. I have challenged both landowners and officers while wading in the Hood Canal area multiple times to show me low water. It is not as easy as a chart, a GPS, and a depth sounder. It requires a legal survey be performed to identify the actual point for low water that day. Low water then has to be marked and then referenced against my actual position at the time I was approached.
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Postby Underradar » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:13 pm

Uh, no. After you have tried and won a few trials, get back with us.
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Re: Navigatable water....?

Postby ScaupHunter » Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:37 pm

Uh, Yes. :lol3: :lol3: :lol3: :lol3: :lol3: :lol3: :lol3: :lol3:

Your missing the point. If the officer cannot identify your exact position. And they never can, because they always call you to shore to talk, and they cannot identify where low water is located they cannot even cite you for the "trespass" I simply hold a calm conversation with the officer and pin them down on where low water is located. I have as of yet to find one who could. The one who tried it had the citation thrown out on technical issues. The main ones being that he had absolutely no clue where low water was or my exact position was when he asked me to come to shore. It took exactly one minute into my defense arguments for the judge to throw out the citation. The court could not identify low water.

It is not as easy as you make it sound. I deal with property law, plats, government property, multiple property rights, and other issues on an almost daily basis.

The law is not that hard to beat or get around if you read it and use common sense.
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Re: Navigatable water....?

Postby Underradar » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:24 pm

Your gae wardens must be much more retarded than ours. Yours don't even know how to lie well?
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Re: Navigatable water....?

Postby bighop » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:09 pm

ScaupHunter wrote:The law is not that hard to beat or get around if you read it and use common sense.

'cause that's the goal after all, I mean, who would want to respect private property?
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Re: Navigatable water....?

Postby gomer snerd » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:56 pm

about as many that don't respect public waters.
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Re: Navigatable water....?

Postby ScaupHunter » Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:06 pm

bighop wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:The law is not that hard to beat or get around if you read it and use common sense.

'cause that's the goal after all, I mean, who would want to respect private property?


Do you mean the public property that some jack ass Californian who moved up is trying to claim is his? The same land I and others have fished for decades without ever being bothers. This is Washington State, mean high water is what we acknowledge here. Don't like it much. Stay where you came from.

And UR nailed it on the head. The GW tried to lie his way through the case, the prosecutor supported him. I embarrassed them both using facts, technical knowledge, and even managed to make the judge chuckle when I called the officer out on his game. The law is not as complex as lawyers want it to be. If more people put some effort into understanding it the attorneys would be out of a job. Which is exactly why they work so hard to make the legal system completely impossible to understand.
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Re: Navigatable water....?

Postby bighop » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:34 pm

ScaupHunter wrote:
bighop wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:The law is not that hard to beat or get around if you read it and use common sense.

'cause that's the goal after all, I mean, who would want to respect private property?


Do you mean the public property that some jack ass Californian who moved up is trying to claim is his? The same land I and others have fished for decades without ever being bothers. This is Washington State, mean high water is what we acknowledge here. Don't like it much. Stay where you came from.

Then why do you keep talking about low water, and why do you have beat or get around the law? And who cares where the landowner is from or how long people have been allowed to trespass? He paid for his property, it's his property. Are you a descendent of the Native Americans who fished there or something? WA DNR states ownership is a case by case basis there, not mean high, or mean low, or just mean water level. Or are you talking about your fishing buddies being the ones that recognize mean high water? Not sure Good Chief Wannacatchasalmon's 5th great grandson's cousin can claim that...
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