Is this Racism? (Part 2)

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Is this Racism? (Part 2)

Postby Chilidawg » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:22 am

From "Letters to the Editor: Confessions of a Frustrated Conservative" by Arkansas State Representative, Jon Hubbard

“… the institution of slavery that the black race has long believed to be an abomination upon its people may actually have been a blessing in disguise. The blacks who could endure those conditions and circumstances would someday be rewarded with citizenship in the greatest nation ever established upon the face of the Earth.” (Pages 183-89)

See more at: http://talkbusiness.net/2012/10/rep-jon ... bZzcz.dpuf
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Re: Is this Racism? (Part 2)

Postby assateague » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:58 am

And that's incorrect how?
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Re: Is this Racism? (Part 2)

Postby SpinnerMan » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:15 am

assateague wrote:And that's incorrect how?

Stated something that may be factually correct is not a defense against racism if it doesn't support the beliefs and objectives of the person hurling the accusation. :thumbsup:

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Re: Is this Racism? (Part 2)

Postby assateague » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:28 am

:lol3: :lol3: :lol3:



As I've argued in the past, it is a very compelling argument that the lives and conditions of southern slaves were actually far better than those of the "free" factory workers in the north.
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Re: Is this Racism? (Part 2)

Postby WoodyWhiffingMG » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:41 am

:lol3: :lol3: :lol3: :lol3: :lol3:

How is that racist at all?
If any of the effected race would like to protest those facts, I am sure we all can pool some tax payer money for a one way ticket back to their ancestor's homeland. 10-15 minutes there and I am sure they will be begging for a ride home.
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Re: Is this Racism? (Part 2)

Postby ScaupHunter » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:42 am

A couple of black friends of mine decided to take a trip to Africa to find their roots. I reccomended that they research their family trees and head to their ancestral homelands since Africa is a huge continent. One went to Senegal, and the other went to Niger. The conversations when they came home were very interesting. Both of them sounded just like AT's last comment. They were going on and on about how glad they were to be Americans, and how blessed they were to have the opportunties to be born citizens. Total attitude change pre trip vs post trip.

Reality can be tough sometimes. One buddy was very deeply moved by the conditions of the people in Senegal and how bad things were. One comment he made was very telling. He wanted to know how a people had failed to chose to develop and improve their lives over hundreds and thousands of years. He was stunned that people were still living the way they have lived for thousands of years.

The world has a very different attitude and outlook than we have as Americans. We really need to stop projecting our values on other nations and allow them to live as they wish.
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Re: Is this Racism? (Part 2)

Postby WoodyWhiffingMG » Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:44 am

ScaupHunter wrote:The world has a very different attitude and outlook than we have as Americans. We really need to stop projecting our values on other nations and allow them to live as they wish.


To be honest... who is to say they are not doing it the correct way.
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Re: Is this Racism? (Part 2)

Postby Bloke » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:11 am

ScaupHunter wrote:A couple of black friends of mine decided to take a trip to Africa to find their roots. I reccomended that they research their family trees and head to their ancestral homelands since Africa is a huge continent. One went to Senegal, and the other went to Niger. The conversations when they came home were very interesting. Both of them sounded just like AT's last comment. They were going on and on about how glad they were to be Americans, and how blessed they were to have the opportunties to be born citizens. Total attitude change pre trip vs post trip.

Reality can be tough sometimes. One buddy was very deeply moved by the conditions of the people in Senegal and how bad things were. One comment he made was very telling. He wanted to know how a people had failed to chose to develop and improve their lives over hundreds and thousands of years. He was stunned that people were still living the way they have lived for thousands of years.

The world has a very different attitude and outlook than we have as Americans. We really need to stop projecting our values on other nations and allow them to live as they wish.


Here is a black preacher expanding on your post. One of my favorite, and one pastor who is not scared to state the obvious or the truth...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkY-7U--QSY
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Re: Is this Racism? (Part 2)

Postby ohioboy » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:52 am

WoodyWhiffingMG wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:The world has a very different attitude and outlook than we have as Americans. We really need to stop projecting our values on other nations and allow them to live as they wish.


To be honest... who is to say they are not doing it the correct way.


Cuz this is America! We do it right. :lol3:
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Re: Is this Racism? (Part 2)

Postby vincentpa » Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:54 am

Racism. No.

Perverse. Yes.
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Re: Is this Racism? (Part 2)

Postby Chilidawg » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:55 am

Here is what Clarence Thomas wrote about the type of argument in the OP.

Slaveholders argued that slavery was a “positive good” that civilized blacks and elevated them in every dimension of life. See, e.g., Calhoun, Speech in the U. S. Senate, 1837, in P. Finkelman, Defending Slavery 54, 58–59(2003) (“Never before has the black race of Central Africa, from the dawn of history to the present day, attained acondition so civilized and so improved, not only physically, but morally and intellectually. . . . [T]he relation now existing in the slaveholding States between the two [races], is, instead of an evil, a good—a positive good”); Harper, Memoir on Slavery, in The Ideology of Slavery 78, 115–116 (D. Faust ed. 1981) (“Slavery, as it is said in an eloquent article published in a Southern periodical work . . . ‘has done more to elevate a degraded race in the scale of humanity; to tame the savage; to civilize the barbarous; to soften the ferocious; to enlighten the ignorant, and to spread the blessings of [C]hristianity among the heathen, than all the missionaries that philanthropy and religionhave ever sent forth’”); Hammond, The Mudsill Speech, 1858, in Defending Slavery, supra, at 80, 87 (“They are elevated from the condition in which God first created them, by being made our slaves”).
A century later, segregationists similarly asserted that segregation was not only benign, but good for black students. They argued, for example, that separate schools protected black children from racist white students and teachers. See, e.g., Brief for Appellees in Briggs 33–34 (“‘I have repeatedly seen wise and loving colored parents take infinite pains to force their little children into schoolswhere the white children, white teachers, and white parents despised and resented the dark child, made mock of it, neglected or bullied it, and literally rendered its life a living hell. Such parents want their child to “fight” this thing out,—but, dear God, at what a cost! . . . We shall get a finer, better balance of spirit; an infinitely more capable and rounded personality by putting children in schools where they are wanted, and where they are happy and inspired, than in thrusting them into hells where they are ridiculed and hated’”…
Following in these inauspicious footsteps, the University would have us believe that its discrimination is likewise benign. I think the lesson of history is clear enough: Racial discrimination is never benign. “‘[B]enign’ carries with it no independent meaning, but reflects only acceptance of the current generation’s conclusion that a politically acceptable burden, imposed on particular citizens on the basis of race, is reasonable.”…The University’s professed good intentions cannot excuse its outright racial discrimination any more than such intentions justified the now denounced arguments of slaveholders and segregationists.


So, according to Thomas, the argument in the OP is indeed racist.
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Re: Is this Racism? (Part 2)

Postby assateague » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:01 pm

That's nice. Thanks for contributing.
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Re: Is this Racism? (Part 2)

Postby Chilidawg » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:12 pm

Here are some more statements from Arkansas state rep. Jon Hubbard.

“… one of the stated purposes of school integration was to bring black students up to a level close to that of white students. But, to the great disappointment of everyone, the results of this theory worked exactly in reverse of its intended purpose, and instead of black students rising to the educational levels previously attained by white students, the white students dropped to the level of black students. To make matters worse the lack of discipline and ambition of black students soon became shared by their white classmates, and our educational system has been in a steady decline ever since.”

See more at: http://talkbusiness.net/2012/10/rep-jon ... TRjR0.dpuf

Anyone care to argue that that is not racist?

How about this one?

“Wouldn’t life for blacks in America today be more enjoyable and successful if they would only learn to appreciate the value of a good education?” (Page 184)


I'd like to someone try to defend that statement.
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Re: Is this Racism? (Part 2)

Postby Chilidawg » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:14 pm

assateague wrote:That's nice. Thanks for contributing.


Why bless your little heart, you figured out how to log in again.
Last edited by Chilidawg on Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is this Racism? (Part 2)

Postby Chilidawg » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:19 pm

Assa, I'm sure you can tell us all just how the following statement from Jon Hubbard is not racist.
“… will it ever become possible for black people in the United States of America to firmly establish themselves as inclusive and contributing members of society within this country?”


I look forward to reading your meaningful and insightful commentary.

I'm sure it will be quite special.
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Re: Is this Racism? (Part 2)

Postby assateague » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:28 pm

Chilidawg wrote:Here are some more statements from Arkansas state rep. Jon Hubbard.

“… one of the stated purposes of school integration was to bring black students up to a level close to that of white students. But, to the great disappointment of everyone, the results of this theory worked exactly in reverse of its intended purpose, and instead of black students rising to the educational levels previously attained by white students, the white students dropped to the level of black students. To make matters worse the lack of discipline and ambition of black students soon became shared by their white classmates, and our educational system has been in a steady decline ever since.”

See more at: http://talkbusiness.net/2012/10/rep-jon ... TRjR0.dpuf

Anyone care to argue that that is not racist?

How about this one?

“Wouldn’t life for blacks in America today be more enjoyable and successful if they would only learn to appreciate the value of a good education?” (Page 184)


I'd like to someone try to defend that statement.



Both of these seem to be quite factual. They are "racist" in that the determinations are based on race, but that certainly doesn't make them any less true.
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Re: Is this Racism? (Part 2)

Postby WoodyWhiffingMG » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:29 pm

Chilidawg wrote:Assa, I'm sure you can tell us all just how the following statement from Jon Hubbard is not racist.
“… will it ever become possible for black people in the United States of America to firmly establish themselves as inclusive and contributing members of society within this country?”


I look forward to reading your meaningful and insightful commentary.

I'm sure it will be quite special.


Statistically speaking, Jon Hubbard is correct.

There are some that are greatly contributing, Herman Cain for example, but numbers don't lie. An African American youth is far more likely to find them self in jail than any other race.

They make up more of the prison population than any other race.
They make up more of the welfare-role than any other race.
They make up less of the college graduates than most other races.
Their unemployment rate is higher than any other race.

Now don't say this is because of racism, they have been given an overwhelming competitive advantage by government intervention and as a populous they have not taken advantage of it in a way that benefits society.

I have many black friends, but most if not all of them would voice this same opinion about their "brothers."
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Re: Is this Racism? (Part 2)

Postby WoodyWhiffingMG » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:32 pm

assateague wrote:Both of these seem to be quite factual. They are "racist" in that the determinations are based on race, but that certainly doesn't make them any less true.


^^This^^
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Re: Is this Racism? (Part 2)

Postby SpinnerMan » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:49 pm

Chilidawg wrote:So, according to Thomas, the argument in the OP is indeed racist.

Where in that did he say it was racist? He simply said that they are wrong. Being wrong about issues involving race is NOT racist :fingerhead:

It is not racist to state that given the course of human history, it is vastly superior to be a black man in American than a black man in any other country on the planet. It is a fact. Extrapolation of that fact is speculation. I see nothing racist (inher

The entire question bases on what part of human history do you assume is changed and what you assume the entire course of human history after that is.

It "may" have gone many ways.

Of course, you can always assume if the European powers had never touched Africa, it would be the great industrial power of the 21st century and the height of societal advancement and the lives of people would far surpass anything we can imagine. I don't think that is what the evidence supports, but you can't say for certain it would (or would not) be as bad as today. It has nothing to do with skin color. It is purely culture and just like the indigenous people of the U.S. were not likely to have done the same despite their far lighter skin color, the conditions in Africa were likely to have remained poor. That is not an argument for wrongdoing, nor is any benefit that comes from wrongdoing. You have a right to be wrong and suffer the consequences. The past is the past and you might as well make the best of it, look at it as the glass half full, turn the lemons into lemonade, ... What else can you do but that if you want to have a better future?

WoodyWhiffingMG wrote:
assateague wrote:Both of these seem to be quite factual. They are "racist" in that the determinations are based on race, but that certainly doesn't make them any less true.


^^This^^

x3, but it is not any inherent deficiency in the black gene pool. It is purely cultural. I see EXACTLY the same results in my semi-rural part of PA where the idea of self-reliance has been sucked out of the people though government so-called social welfare programs. Were tribal Europeans doomed to be that way for eternity? Of course not. They just saw the light first, for a lack of a better way to express it. All evidence prior to that point suggested that what we have seen today would never have happened, but it did so who knows the course of Africa if left untouched and free to learn from the rest of the world. Had it happened first in Africa, everything would be flipped because there is no inherent fundamental difference between all races of people. I truly believe that. Granted my line management is an Asian immigrant, an African immigrant, and an American of Egyptian descent (not sure if he immigrated here or not).

Heck there are even a couple Canadians that I work with

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Re: Is this Racism? (Part 2)

Postby clampdaddy » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:09 pm

SpinnerMan wrote: .....Heck there are even a couple Canadians that I work with.....


You mean to tell me that your employer actually makes you work alongside "those people"?
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Re: Is this Racism? (Part 2)

Postby ScaupHunter » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:49 pm

I am not so sure that Chili understands his posts often do not support his positions very well. The last two are a great example. Thomas did not call it racist and he is not the arbiter of racism anyway. Then toss in the factual quotes Chili posted that are supported by reality.

The fact that something is racist in your world view does not make it automatically wrong, or even automatically evil. It just means you personally think it is racist.

Chili, many of America's black citizens are the worst biggots in the nation.
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Re: Is this Racism? (Part 2)

Postby SpinnerMan » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:01 pm

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/lifestyle/general_lifestyle/july_2013/more_americans_view_blacks_as_racist_than_whites_hispanics

Thirty-seven percent (37%) of American Adults think most black Americans are racist, according to a new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey. Just 15% consider most white Americans racist, while 18% say the same of most Hispanic Americans. (To see survey question wording, click here.)

There is a huge ideological difference on this topic. Among conservative Americans, 49% consider most blacks racist, and only 12% see most whites that way. Among liberal voters, 27% see most white Americans as racist, and 21% say the same about black Americans.

Of course, if you are constantly accused of being racist when it is totally silly, what can you really think other than it must be some from of projection.

If you are always search for racism, does that not probably tell more about what is in your own heart than the hearts of others? :huh:

I think this is probably the most interesting part of this.

Among black Americans, 31% think most blacks are racist, while 24% consider most whites racist and 15% view most Hispanics that way.

Among white adults, 10% think most white Americans are racist; 38% believe most blacks are racist, and 17% say most Hispanics are racist.
Almost 1/3rd of blacks say other blacks are racist, while only 1/10th of whites say that about other whites.

A friend of mine started dating a black woman a couple months back. She is really worried about him meeting her brothers because it sounds like they aren't too keen on the white man. BTW, if I come across offensive with my bluntness, this guy is 10 times worse. She is right to be worried. :yes:

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Re: Is this Racism? (Part 2)

Postby ScaupHunter » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:21 pm

Is it totally wrong to have found that funny? :lol3:
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Re: Is this Racism? (Part 2)

Postby Chilidawg » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:44 pm

assateague wrote:
Chilidawg wrote:Here are some more statements from Arkansas state rep. Jon Hubbard.

“… one of the stated purposes of school integration was to bring black students up to a level close to that of white students. But, to the great disappointment of everyone, the results of this theory worked exactly in reverse of its intended purpose, and instead of black students rising to the educational levels previously attained by white students, the white students dropped to the level of black students. To make matters worse the lack of discipline and ambition of black students soon became shared by their white classmates, and our educational system has been in a steady decline ever since.”

See more at: http://talkbusiness.net/2012/10/rep-jon ... TRjR0.dpuf

Anyone care to argue that that is not racist?

How about this one?

“Wouldn’t life for blacks in America today be more enjoyable and successful if they would only learn to appreciate the value of a good education?” (Page 184)


I'd like to someone try to defend that statement.



Both of these seem to be quite factual. They are "racist" in that the determinations are based on race, but that certainly doesn't make them any less true.


Thanks, I knew you wouldn't disapoint. Your racism is clearly on display for all to see.
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Re: Is this Racism? (Part 2)

Postby ScaupHunter » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:48 pm

It is 50 / 50 that AT is a racist.

It is 100% that CD will pull out the race card and AT won't care. :fingerhead:
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