Detroit?

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Re: Detroit?

Postby dthur » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:19 pm

I don't think we get the chance to make a choice, obama (show no respect by caps) is making the choice for us. He will take all he wants.

If the mother of eight was educated/working I doubt she would have eight babies. Would that put an end to "baby daddy"? No caps again.

Would I help if she or those babies were in need? Yes, thats our payback for what the good Lord (caps there) blessed you and me with.

Like or not we are care givers because we have, next time around we could be they!!!!
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Re: Detroit?

Postby ScaupHunter » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:34 pm

dthur wrote:Spinner, Well put and I agree, but we still have the problem, we can't just turn our back on them, they are us, and our kids and our kids future.


Actually that is the answer. Turning your back on them and forcing them to learn to survive will not only make them stronger in the long run, it will weed out the useless ones in a very Darwinian manner. When you are propelling yourself forward at 200 mph towards a brick wall you don't refuse to put the brakes on because you are going to remove a few problems if you do. The entire system will be destroyed when you hit that wall. Change is always painful. In our case it is going to be brutally so in America. We can either change, or keep spending out way to our own economic destruction.

I for one do not believe I owe the mother or her 8 illegitamate children a thing. I did not create the system that led to her decisions. I did not birth, raise, or fund her in an way by choice. Stealing my money that should be ensuring my family can succeed fully to fund her and her offspring as stated is simple theft. There is no excuse for it.

Kill the welfare system, and let her, and everyone like her scratch for a living. Allow the private system and churches to work with them and hold them to working for what they recieve. If they are going to starve to death let the old WIC system work. Staple foods and nothing else provided.
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Re: Detroit?

Postby dthur » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:52 pm

Well, thats one way to solve the obesity problem.
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Re: Detroit?

Postby slowshooter » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:53 pm

The GOP always fails in these conversations because their motives are known.

No policy to be undertaken if it benefits the poor - despite that the benefit is a natural outcome of strengthening the state and the city. However any policy that consolidates power and money in the hands of the rich should be undertaken even if it manufactures more poor, hurts the state and city.

Policy always benefits someone. The GOP simply never wants policy to benefit the people from whom they will never be able to call in favors.
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Re: Detroit?

Postby dthur » Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:50 pm

SShooter are you possibly suggesting coruption and favors takes place amongst our most trustworthy and honerable of all civil positions? Keep the masses dependent and distracted and you can do what obama and his posse are now getting away with.
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Re: Detroit?

Postby WoodyWhiffingMG » Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:58 pm

slowshooter wrote:The GOP always fails in these conversations because their motives are known.

No policy to be undertaken if it benefits the poor - despite that the benefit is a natural outcome of strengthening the state and the city. However any policy that consolidates power and money in the hands of the rich should be undertaken even if it manufactures more poor, hurts the state and city.

Policy always benefits someone. The GOP simply never wants policy to benefit the people from whom they will never be able to call in favors.


I swear you liberals always have to turn everything into an attack on someone, well it is how your party wins office.

It is not an attack on the poor, it is a defense of the money in the pockets of the wealthy and the middle class, where it was earned and should stay.


It is evil to steal, no matter who does it, what it is for, or where the money ends up, period.
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Re: Detroit?

Postby SpinnerMan » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:37 pm

dthur wrote:I don't think we get the chance to make a choice, obama (show no respect by caps) is making the choice for us. He will take all he wants.

If the mother of eight was educated/working I doubt she would have eight babies. Would that put an end to "baby daddy"? No caps again.

Would I help if she or those babies were in need? Yes, thats our payback for what the good Lord (caps there) blessed you and me with.

Like or not we are care givers because we have, next time around we could be they!!!!

But that help must actually help. If your help leads to harm, that is not what the good Lord wants us to do.

Would I take the child and make sure it has a good home? Yes.

Would I give them a job if I had one to offer? Yes.

Would I baby sit the kids while the mother works 2 jobs to pay for her 8 kids? Yes.

Would I give her money if she were not doing things that show she is sincerely working toward improving the lives of her children? No friggin way.

Help, yes. Do something that makes me feel good about my self, but is harmful in the long run? I hope not.

This women is in this situation because a long string of bad decisions over a decade. I'm going to be highly skeptical about her ability to not harm her children through continued bad choices.
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Re: Detroit?

Postby slowshooter » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:09 pm

dthur wrote:SShooter are you possibly suggesting coruption and favors takes place amongst our most trustworthy and honerable of all civil positions? Keep the masses dependent and distracted and you can do what obama and his posse are now getting away with.


You don't have to worry about keeping them dependent. All they need is distraction.

Obama didn't start this train, he's only conducting it to the next president. If you think this is a Democrat vs. GOP issue you are incorrect. Kwame wasn't there long enough to destroy that city. It started to die on the day that it's dependency on the Big 3 met the Big 3's realization that they were not dependent on Detroit. And that happened in the 1960s.

Has it been mismanaged? Yes. Is it a den of lousy politics and self destroying unions? Yes. But there are cities that have both and do great. What made Detroit different? They were left behind by the largest corporations they believed would stay - and they never made the effort to try and build other businesses and regain relevancy in an information/finance based society.

If an uneducated Mexican can build cars and does it cheaper. Companies are going to make cars there.

Sometimes cities die. Sometimes it's for the better.
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Re: Detroit?

Postby assateague » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:16 pm

It has nothing to do with not attracting other businesses and everything to do with spending as if you still had 2 million residents when you only have 40% of that.

I'd be curious to see how much their budget shrank in relation to their population. I'd bet it didn't at all, and probably increased in proportion to the number of residents.
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Re: Detroit?

Postby slowshooter » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:21 pm

WoodyWhiffingMG wrote:
slowshooter wrote:The GOP always fails in these conversations because their motives are known.

No policy to be undertaken if it benefits the poor - despite that the benefit is a natural outcome of strengthening the state and the city. However any policy that consolidates power and money in the hands of the rich should be undertaken even if it manufactures more poor, hurts the state and city.

Policy always benefits someone. The GOP simply never wants policy to benefit the people from whom they will never be able to call in favors.


I swear you liberals always have to turn everything into an attack on someone, well it is how your party wins office.


LOL! Telling people they are dumb when they are in fact dumb is not an attack. And the GOP is still attacking even after it lost the election.

IRS scandal? Non existant. Benghazi scandal? Non existant. Obama is a manchurian candidate? Crazy. Birthers? Extra crazy. Tea Partiers? Old crazy racists with anger issues.

The Right is so low there is nothing beneath them. And that's exactly how they operate.


It is not an attack on the poor, it is a defense of the money in the pockets of the wealthy and the middle class, where it was earned and should stay.


It's so nice to see someone admit they're a tool. If what you say is true we would have a growing middle class. And that exactly what we don't have.

It is evil to steal, no matter who does it, what it is for, or where the money ends up, period.


So why do you support those that would steal from the middle class and move money to the rich? I'll tell you why.

Because you are so focused on partisanship you don't even recognize what's going on.

You are getting raped by a system that is demonizing the poor. And worse yet because you buy into that demonization so fervently you don't even notice that the banking system is hilt deep while you cheer on their bought and paid for congress.

Eventually you'll get tossed aside like a used tissue. On that day you'll know that you backed the wrong team.

Count on it.
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Re: Detroit?

Postby slowshooter » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:25 pm

assateague wrote:It has nothing to do with not attracting other businesses and everything to do with spending as if you still had 2 million residents when you only have 40% of that.

I'd be curious to see how much their budget shrank in relation to their population. I'd bet it didn't at all, and probably increased in proportion to the number of residents.


Maybe, but spending money a little more slowly is no cure for no money coming in.

When the city didn't change and didn't attract new business, the residents fled to greener pastures.
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Re: Detroit?

Postby clampdaddy » Wed Jul 24, 2013 7:55 pm

slowshooter wrote:. If an uneducated Mexican can build cars and does it cheaper. Companies are going to make cars there.....


Exactly. The united auto workers priced themselves right out of the market. When a guy works on an assembly line, zipping in the same four bolts that hold the steering column in a car, and he makes more per hour than a real auto mechanic that has to actually know how to work on a car.......eventually that gravy train is going to dry up and run out of steam.
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Re: Detroit?

Postby slowshooter » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:59 pm

clampdaddy wrote:
slowshooter wrote:. If an uneducated Mexican can build cars and does it cheaper. Companies are going to make cars there.....


Exactly. The united auto workers priced themselves right out of the market. When a guy works on an assembly line, zipping in the same four bolts that hold the steering column in a car, and he makes more per hour than a real auto mechanic that has to actually know how to work on a car.......eventually that gravy train is going to dry up and run out of steam.


Well acknowledging that corporations dodge paying workers a living wage doesn't mean it's the right thing to do... The instant that the middle class started doing well the leadership of the corporations they were working for began to flee for cheaper labor, inflated profits and executive compensation. The unspoken bargain the public made with corporations is that we support them while they employ us. Now we run a welfare stated for them - and are responsible for paying for a welfare state to support a middle class they decimated. There isn't any other way to look at it.

That Germany is successful and has strong Unions should be a lesson to us.

But, it's easier to hate the Unions than look at the facts. I'm not a fan of the UAW. But understand that Unions have served the middle class very well over the decades and have a proud history (even when their worst is considered).

When Reagan killed PATCO he started the destruction of labor in this country. And all you guys are wondering where the future went? You gave it to an actor based on a promise that was never, ever, going to be kept.

Shout out to Carpenters Union 405 in the Silicon Valley. Great guys that helped build the places that built your computer. :thumbsup:
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Re: Detroit?

Postby clampdaddy » Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:19 pm

slowshooter wrote: ...That Germany is successful and has strong Unions should be a lesson to us......
. Yeah, let's be like Germany and instead of being #1 in the world for median annual income we can be #20. Sounds like a great plan for the middle class. :rolleyes:

Just like politicians, there was a time when unions were in it for the common man but not anymore. They aren't there to make sure there members make a living. They are there to always push for more regardless of what current economic conditions exist because the more their workers make per hour the more they can charge in dues. They use their members as poker chips in a card game. They keep raising and sometimes the company calls. Then those workers are out of a job. No problem for the union. There's another hand being dealt in another town.
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Re: Detroit?

Postby ScaupHunter » Wed Jul 24, 2013 11:14 pm

Taking my hard earned dollar to buy phones for deadbeats does so much for society. :lol3: :lol3:
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Re: Detroit?

Postby slowshooter » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:34 am

clampdaddy wrote:
slowshooter wrote: ...That Germany is successful and has strong Unions should be a lesson to us......
. Yeah, let's be like Germany and instead of being #1 in the world for median annual income we can be #20. Sounds like a great plan for the middle class. :rolleyes:


We're number 1? That's news to me.

Just like politicians, there was a time when unions were in it for the common man but not anymore.


If you are saying the unions are fighting for survival you are right - that fight doesn't look like it's for the man because at this point is for labor overall. The labor movement in the USA effectively dead. Oddly enough as unions shrank so did the middle class.

Thank the Reagan Revolution.

They aren't there to make sure there members make a living. They are there to always push for more regardless of what current economic conditions exist because the more their workers make per hour the more they can charge in dues. They use their members as poker chips in a card game. They keep raising and sometimes the company calls. Then those workers are out of a job. No problem for the union. There's another hand being dealt in another town.


Union aren't charities. They are in the business of making sure that advantage isn't taken of their members. So I'm not sure why you are talking about them like they are robbing someone. The members can leave when they want and can work without union benefits. But most don't and pay their dues - not much to it other than that.

Are they all perfect? Of course not. By the same token - they aren't all bad.

Just as a quick thought experiment I rewrote your anti-union comment:

Corporations aren't there to make sure there employees make a living. They are there to always push for more profit regardless of what current economic conditions exist because the less their workers make per hour the more they can keep in executive compensation. They use their employees as poker chips in a card game. They keep cutting costs, raising profits and sometimes the union calls. Then those workers are out of a job. No problem for the corporation. There's another hand being dealt in another town.

So, when you read the above and understand that the average working man is now working part time job rather than full time do you understand why the Labor movement is going to be more powerful in the next 10 years?

If the government doesn't change the flow of money towards the middle class then here is about a 30% + chance people are going to turn to the unions and use them to try and force wealth back. Once it starts the membership will blossom.

Eventually, if change doesn't happen that there are going to be people getting shot in the streets because they can't feed their families. Maybe we'll get to see where all that ammo Homeland Security purchased actually went. When the riots starts you won't be able to use the web, to see them, because the last thing we'll need in the cities is of pack angry Moms with hungry kids getting bomb making instructions that were intended for Al Qaeda. The Feds would be stupid not to censor/manage the message.

Eventually we'll get to the point that those that speak truth or are politically inconvenient are going to start dying or disappearing.

It'll just be for security purposes and to keep America safe.
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Re: Detroit?

Postby slowshooter » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:35 am

ScaupHunter wrote:Taking my hard earned dollar to buy phones for deadbeats does so much for society. :lol3: :lol3:


The poor will eat you first.
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Re: Detroit?

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Jul 25, 2013 5:26 am

clampdaddy wrote:
slowshooter wrote: ...That Germany is successful and has strong Unions should be a lesson to us......
. Yeah, let's be like Germany and instead of being #1 in the world for median annual income we can be #20. Sounds like a great plan for the middle class. :rolleyes:
The level of ignorance on how poor most of Europe is, even among European's always amazes me. I was just talking with a French coworker who was actually aware of how relatively poor they are or at least was willing to admit it :eek:
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Re: Detroit?

Postby Andy W » Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:39 am

slowshooter wrote:
IRS scandal? Non existant. Benghazi scandal? Non existant. Obama is a manchurian candidate? Crazy. Birthers? Extra crazy. Tea Partiers? Old crazy racists with anger issues.
I may be old but I'm neither angry or racist and just a little crazy.
The Right is so low there is nothing beneath them. (except the left) And that's exactly how they operate.

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Re: Detroit?

Postby vincentpa » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:14 am

SpinnerMan wrote:
clampdaddy wrote:
slowshooter wrote: ...That Germany is successful and has strong Unions should be a lesson to us......
. Yeah, let's be like Germany and instead of being #1 in the world for median annual income we can be #20. Sounds like a great plan for the middle class. :rolleyes:
The level of ignorance on how poor most of Europe is, even among European's always amazes me. I was just talking with a French coworker who was actually aware of how relatively poor they are or at least was willing to admit it :eek:


It's astounding how true that is. They only realize this when they come here to stay for a while. They almost never want to go back, even the self proclaimed socialists and even communists. I see this a lot. F'ing hypocrites.
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Re: Detroit?

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:29 am

Got an idea for Detroit.
And if I was your president, (which I'm running for in a few years), the slums would be bulldozed down and all the concrete would serve as barriers for erosion protection for these nasty hurricanes, (products of global warming :wink: ),

The BIG hole that's left would be flooded and serve as replacement wetlands that was destroyed in other areas of the country to build cities, that although not bankrupt yet,.. still failures.

(Washington D.C. along the Potomac comes to mind).
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Re: Detroit?

Postby clampdaddy » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:42 am

[quote="slowshooter"]
...... I'm not sure why you are talking about them like they are robbing someone......
The "you pay us what we want or we shut your production down and you can't fire us" tactic is like the mafia extorting business owners for "protection". Do what they want or shut down the shop. I have no problem with "pay us what we want or we'll all quit and you will have to hire and train a whole new work force.

Are they all perfect? Of course not. By the same token - they aren't all bad
No argument there. In most any sample of people there are good and bad.

Just as a quick thought experiment I rewrote your anti-union comment:

Corporations aren't there to make sure there employees make a living. They are there to always push for more profit regardless of what current economic conditions exist because the less their workers make per hour the more they can keep in executive compensation. They use their employees as poker chips in a card game. They keep cutting costs, raising profits and sometimes the union calls. Then those workers are out of a job. No problem for the corporation. There's another hand being dealt in another town.
You do understand that corporations have to show profits to entice investors, right? I wonder how many corporations that made record breaking profits had to be saved by the federal government with American tax dollars. :huh:

Eventually, if change doesn't happen that there are going to be people getting shot in the streets because they can't feed their families.......[/quote ]
See Detroit
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Re: Detroit?

Postby WoodyWhiffingMG » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:10 am

slowshooter wrote:
WoodyWhiffingMG wrote:
slowshooter wrote:The GOP always fails in these conversations because their motives are known.

No policy to be undertaken if it benefits the poor - despite that the benefit is a natural outcome of strengthening the state and the city. However any policy that consolidates power and money in the hands of the rich should be undertaken even if it manufactures more poor, hurts the state and city.

Policy always benefits someone. The GOP simply never wants policy to benefit the people from whom they will never be able to call in favors.


I swear you liberals always have to turn everything into an attack on someone, well it is how your party wins office.


LOL! Telling people they are dumb when they are in fact dumb is not an attack. And the GOP is still attacking even after it lost the election.

IRS scandal? Non existant. Benghazi scandal? Non existant. Obama is a manchurian candidate? Crazy. Birthers? Extra crazy. Tea Partiers? Old crazy racists with anger issues.

The Right is so low there is nothing beneath them. And that's exactly how they operate.


It is not an attack on the poor, it is a defense of the money in the pockets of the wealthy and the middle class, where it was earned and should stay.


It's so nice to see someone admit they're a tool. If what you say is true we would have a growing middle class. And that exactly what we don't have.

It is evil to steal, no matter who does it, what it is for, or where the money ends up, period.


So why do you support those that would steal from the middle class and move money to the rich? I'll tell you why.

Because you are so focused on partisanship you don't even recognize what's going on.

You are getting raped by a system that is demonizing the poor. And worse yet because you buy into that demonization so fervently you don't even notice that the banking system is hilt deep while you cheer on their bought and paid for congress.

Eventually you'll get tossed aside like a used tissue. On that day you'll know that you backed the wrong team.

Count on it.


I don't even know where to start.
First you have made an assumption and you were wrong.
I am not a republican, but I do have a particularly large hatred for liberals. Where I just have a slight displeasure for the republicans.

Why is that?
Because there is at least a hint of capitalism in their platform.
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Re: Detroit?

Postby slowshooter » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:37 pm

clampdaddy wrote:
slowshooter wrote: ...... I'm not sure why you are talking about them like they are robbing someone......
The "you pay us what we want or we shut your production down and you can't fire us" tactic is like the mafia extorting business owners for "protection". Do what they want or shut down the shop. I have no problem with "pay us what we want or we'll all quit and you will have to hire and train a whole new work force.



Then you don't understand why unions exist. They aren't negotiate themselves out of jobs, they are negotiating for pay and benefits they believe will give their members a decent wage. If you can't see that difference I guess we're never going to agree that they serve their purpose (and I completely agree that is not always to the benefit of the public).

Are they all perfect? Of course not. By the same token - they aren't all bad
No argument there. In most any sample of people there are good and bad.



Yeah, but on this board you don't hear a lot of pro union talk. Most of it is just canned complaints. I figured someone would eventually have to point out that not all unions are the work of the anti capitalist devil. So I did so. :smile:

Just as a quick thought experiment I rewrote your anti-union comment:

Corporations aren't there to make sure there employees make a living. They are there to always push for more profit regardless of what current economic conditions exist because the less their workers make per hour the more they can keep in executive compensation. They use their employees as poker chips in a card game. They keep cutting costs, raising profits and sometimes the union calls. Then those workers are out of a job. No problem for the corporation. There's another hand being dealt in another town.
You do understand that corporations have to show profits to entice investors, right? I wonder how many corporations that made record breaking profits had to be saved by the federal government with American tax dollars. :huh:


Who says that profits are bad? I don't. I love them. However when profits are made by pilfering the public treasury with unneeded tax breaks, sub 40 hour weeks to avoid giving employees medical benefits, forcing employees into using government paid for health care and then paying the worker minimum wage that is no longer a living wage? Eh. That's not profit from sales that is profiting by gaming the system and becoming a corporate welfare case. The costs to run the business are passed to the taxpayer.

Eventually, if change doesn't happen that there are going to be people getting shot in the streets because they can't feed their families.......[/quote ]
See Detroit


Nah, people shoot each other in Detroit because it's fun.
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Re: Detroit?

Postby slowshooter » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:39 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:
clampdaddy wrote:
slowshooter wrote: ...That Germany is successful and has strong Unions should be a lesson to us......
. Yeah, let's be like Germany and instead of being #1 in the world for median annual income we can be #20. Sounds like a great plan for the middle class. :rolleyes:
The level of ignorance on how poor most of Europe is, even among European's always amazes me. I was just talking with a French coworker who was actually aware of how relatively poor they are or at least was willing to admit it :eek:



The facts are that most of the US is poor as well - and those ranks are swelling. Thank your Congress.

If the French were all that worried about it they would en masse flee elsewhere. Looks like they are staying put.
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