Hey Ohio- A test for today

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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby assateague » Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:31 am

ohioboy wrote:for Assa,
1,367 Persons 7-13 Years of Age Attending School
290 Total Persons 14 and 15 Years of Age Attending School
144 Total Persons 16 and 17 Years of Age Attending School
76 Persons 18-20 Years of Age Attending School

This is from http://www.bullittcountyhistory.com/bch ... .html#1920

So apparently lots passed the test then too. @ would you read that into these numbers?



Really? Based on those amazing stats you posted, tell me this- at what age did each of these people start attending school?

I wouldn't read crap into those numbers, because they are functionally worthless for your argument, I'll count that as strike 47 against you.
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby assateague » Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:35 am

ohioboy wrote:Assa, please ask someone else to look at this. you realize your "test" you are trying so hard to validate has numerous misspellings and other random grammatical errors? i see them.. and as you have pointed out, i am not that smart. you really want to trust this as your cross to nail teachers to? :huh:


Strike 48.

Point out the "numerous misspellings and grammatical errors". They aren't there. As a teacher I'm sure you're aware that standard usage changes, so feel free to point them out. I'll wait for these, too.

You're so busy trying to be clever, that your arrogance is blinding you to what you don't know. It's actually quite pitiful, from a teacher. You're behaving like a 13 year girl who was just told she's overweight.
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby assateague » Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:39 am

ohioboy wrote:
again, i ask, what do you do? why hide it? i have nothing to hide. i answer all questions. :no:


I'm not hiding it. I've talked about what I do numerous times here, and many are familiar with it. Sorry you came late to the party. However, your passive aggressive whining about it speaks more to a generational sense of personalized entitlement than to anything else, so I better answer before you have a smug tantrum.

I'm a competitive intelligence analyst. There- happy now? You got your personal response. Now get up off the floor and get back on the grocery cart.
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby Indaswamp » Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:47 am

Quoting this so it is not over looked...
Designed on the German system, the Tucker plan is to train children in specific jobs to serve the workforce and the global economy instead of to educate them so they can make their own life choices.


Do I need to clarify it any more than that???
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby vincentpa » Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:20 am

ohioboy wrote:
vincentpa wrote:That's funny that Spinner pointed out how useless it is to waste time with obsolete technology. I do a ton of math everyday in my personal and professional life. If I couldn't use basic math, I would be screwed. I got into a debate with my brother about 10 years ago. I was appalled when I found out the school allowed his high school and grade school aged children to use calculators in math class. He bought into the garbage the school was selling that the kids needed to understand and use the latest technology bawhahahaha! A calculator! I told him if the kids can't learn the basics without the use of a tool, they will never grasp the subject. You have to master the basics to advance to be able to use a tool that facilitates the problem. A computer is absolutely unnecessary to learn math, science, English or history. There is probably no one on this site except IT guys that uses a computer more than I to accomplish work. They don't count because their job is setting up computers for guys like me to utilize. The point is that I have to know the basics of math and engineering to be able to write programs and understand when the results given to me by the tool I'm utilizing to simplify my tasks is giving me garbage. I made it through grade school, high school and four semesters of calculus never using that new fangled invention called a calculator. It was unnecessary.


Sent from my iPhone 5, which sucks my cojones. Don't buy one.


Good job. :lol:



:huh:

Yet another clever response.

Your entire argument is couched in excuses for your failures. Everytime the debate starts about education, you immediately go on the defensive with poor excuses as to why your students can't learn. You are so deluded that you are the only one that can't see this. Excuses are like a-holes. Everybody has one. The only thing that matters is results; and yours are poor. You can't escape that fact.
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:39 am

ohioboy wrote:And hate to burst your bubble, but lots of those questions are just bs memorization questions.

Ohio-
Respectfully-
"B.S. memorization questions"? :huh:
What the heck else OTHER than remembering what you've been taught could a test possibly "test"?
Are you saying that remembering the right answers to questions is.. perhaps.. cheating!!?? :lol3:
Would agree that there's a difference in memorizing something and knowing it. But memorizing these many things comes with a price- you have to take the time to study it.


Seems to me in 1912 kids were learning more about AMERICAN HISTORY, functions of GOVERNMENT, HEALTH and bodily functions, GEOGRAPHY, REAL Math, (you know-where a student has to physically use a pencil, and "remember" how to solve a mathematical problem WITHOUT A CALCULATOR :wink: ), and even more importantly- PROPER GRAMMAR, you know- the components of a sentence and the context in which to use them.
Unlike walking into an establishment which provides a certain amount of customer service, and when YOU as the customer says Thank-you -

The kid says:
No Problem :lol3:
:beer:
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby ohioboy » Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:37 am

assateague wrote:Ohio, show me where I said its the fault of teachers. I'll wait.

You have insinuated that this entire thread, and in every other teacher/education thread. You have not pulled out the "teachers have never gone on strike to protest bad curriculum!" thing yet. That should be soon.

You also specifically called me out. I am a teacher. Sooooo.....?
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby ohioboy » Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:43 am

assateague wrote:
ohioboy wrote:Assa, please ask someone else to look at this. you realize your "test" you are trying so hard to validate has numerous misspellings and other random grammatical errors? i see them.. and as you have pointed out, i am not that smart. you really want to trust this as your cross to nail teachers to? :huh:


Strike 48.

Point out the "numerous misspellings and grammatical errors". They aren't there. As a teacher I'm sure you're aware that standard usage changes, so feel free to point them out. I'll wait for these, too.

You're so busy trying to be clever, that your arrogance is blinding you to what you don't know. It's actually quite pitiful, from a teacher. You're behaving like a 13 year girl who was just told she's overweight.

Arrogant. :lol3:

Who leads our country? The President? Or president. This kept jumping out at me since it was in my area of the test. Rawleigh?
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby ohioboy » Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:47 am

swampbilly 1980 wrote:
ohioboy wrote:And hate to burst your bubble, but lots of those questions are just bs memorization questions.

Ohio-
Respectfully-
"B.S. memorization questions"? :huh:
What the heck else OTHER than remembering what you've been taught could a test possibly "test"?
Are you saying that remembering the right answers to questions is.. perhaps.. cheating!!?? :lol3:
Would agree that there's a difference in memorizing something and knowing it. But memorizing these many things comes with a price- you have to take the time to study it.


Seems to me in 1912 kids were learning more about AMERICAN HISTORY, functions of GOVERNMENT, HEALTH and bodily functions, GEOGRAPHY, REAL Math, (you know-where a student has to physically use a pencil, and "remember" how to solve a mathematical problem WITHOUT A CALCULATOR :wink: ), and even more importantly- PROPER GRAMMAR, you know- the components of a sentence and the context in which to use them.
Unlike walking into an establishment which provides a certain amount of customer service, and when YOU as the customer says Thank-you -

The kid says:
No Problem :lol3:
:beer:

Critical thinking is much better than memorization.
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby ohioboy » Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:49 am

vincentpa wrote:
ohioboy wrote:
vincentpa wrote:That's funny that Spinner pointed out how useless it is to waste time with obsolete technology. I do a ton of math everyday in my personal and professional life. If I couldn't use basic math, I would be screwed. I got into a debate with my brother about 10 years ago. I was appalled when I found out the school allowed his high school and grade school aged children to use calculators in math class. He bought into the garbage the school was selling that the kids needed to understand and use the latest technology bawhahahaha! A calculator! I told him if the kids can't learn the basics without the use of a tool, they will never grasp the subject. You have to master the basics to advance to be able to use a tool that facilitates the problem. A computer is absolutely unnecessary to learn math, science, English or history. There is probably no one on this site except IT guys that uses a computer more than I to accomplish work. They don't count because their job is setting up computers for guys like me to utilize. The point is that I have to know the basics of math and engineering to be able to write programs and understand when the results given to me by the tool I'm utilizing to simplify my tasks is giving me garbage. I made it through grade school, high school and four semesters of calculus never using that new fangled invention called a calculator. It was unnecessary.


Sent from my iPhone 5, which sucks my cojones. Don't buy one.


Good job. :lol:



:huh:

Yet another clever response.

Your entire argument is couched in excuses for your failures. Everytime the debate starts about education, you immediately go on the defensive with poor excuses as to why your students can't learn. You are so deluded that you are the only one that can't see this. Excuses are like a-holes. Everybody has one. The only thing that matters is results; and yours are poor. You can't escape that fact.

What was I supposed to say? You get a gold star for being super smart in math?

Not everyone is on your level. I am not, or in math at least, for sure. That entire paragraph was about how smart you are.
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby go get the bird » Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:51 am

Critical thinking-verb: the act of turning on the power to an electronic device, such as a calculator or computer. :lol:
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby ohioboy » Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:54 am

assateague wrote:
ohioboy wrote:
again, i ask, what do you do? why hide it? i have nothing to hide. i answer all questions. :no:


I'm not hiding it. I've talked about what I do numerous times here, and many are familiar with it. Sorry you came late to the party. However, your passive aggressive whining about it speaks more to a generational sense of personalized entitlement than to anything else, so I better answer before you have a smug tantrum.

I'm a competitive intelligence analyst. There- happy now? You got your personal response. Now get up off the floor and get back on the grocery cart.

Well you should be good at finding data and analyzing.

You did not like my stats I posted. Your criticisms are valid, but as for now, that is all we have. We can infer a low passing rate based on those numbers. Can you find any more? Do we know this test was even ever used? Was it taken by all the 8th graders or just a select few? Unless you can prove the last two, I would say your whole point is invalidated.

I think that pretty much sums it up.
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby ohioboy » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:15 am

Indaswamp wrote:Quoting this so it is not over looked...
Designed on the German system, the Tucker plan is to train children in specific jobs to serve the workforce and the global economy instead of to educate them so they can make their own life choices.


Do I need to clarify it any more than that???

Maybe as he originally designed it, it would be as you have quoted.

In reality, as a teacher, number three in the description on the link you listed, is the only reality.

National standards for education probably are pretty useful. This all stems from the south, Louisiana is one of the worst btw, being far behind the rest of the country in education. You should actually like this. It will be pumping money and resources into schools and areas that need help.

My school was part of a four year study on smaller learning communities. We got a big federal grant to test the theory out. It was not successful, and that is part of the reason that other than maybe Slack, none of you have heard of it.
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby ohioboy » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:16 am

go get the bird wrote:Critical thinking-verb: the act of turning on the power to an electronic device, such as a calculator or computer. :lol:


Critical thinking would be asking how else it could be turned on.
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby Indaswamp » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:23 am

ohioboy wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:Quoting this so it is not over looked...
Designed on the German system, the Tucker plan is to train children in specific jobs to serve the workforce and the global economy instead of to educate them so they can make their own life choices.


Do I need to clarify it any more than that???

Maybe as he originally designed it, it would be as you have quoted.

In reality, as a teacher, number three in the description on the link you listed, is the only reality.

National standards for education probably are pretty useful. This all stems from the south, Louisiana is one of the worst btw, being far behind the rest of the country in education. You should actually like this. It will be pumping money and resources into schools and areas that need help.

My school was part of a four year study on smaller learning communities. We got a big federal grant to test the theory out. It was not successful, and that is part of the reason that other than maybe Slack, none of you have heard of it.

Just in case you can't tell, I don't like it. I believe that the national education board should be abolished, it should be left to the states.
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby ohioboy » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:24 am

assateague wrote:
ohioboy wrote:Assa, please ask someone else to look at this. you realize your "test" you are trying so hard to validate has numerous misspellings and other random grammatical errors? i see them.. and as you have pointed out, i am not that smart. you really want to trust this as your cross to nail teachers to? :huh:


Strike 48.

Point out the "numerous misspellings and grammatical errors". They aren't there. As a teacher I'm sure you're aware that standard usage changes, so feel free to point them out. I'll wait for these, too.

You're so busy trying to be clever, that your arrogance is blinding you to what you don't know. It's actually quite pitiful, from a teacher. You're behaving like a 13 year girl who was just told she's overweight.

So that would make you the bully who keeps telling her she is fat?
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby Indaswamp » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:26 am

ohioboy wrote:
assateague wrote:
ohioboy wrote:Assa, please ask someone else to look at this. you realize your "test" you are trying so hard to validate has numerous misspellings and other random grammatical errors? i see them.. and as you have pointed out, i am not that smart. you really want to trust this as your cross to nail teachers to? :huh:


Strike 48.

Point out the "numerous misspellings and grammatical errors". They aren't there. As a teacher I'm sure you're aware that standard usage changes, so feel free to point them out. I'll wait for these, too.

You're so busy trying to be clever, that your arrogance is blinding you to what you don't know. It's actually quite pitiful, from a teacher. You're behaving like a 13 year girl who was just told she's overweight.

So that would make you the bully who keeps telling her she is fat?

smh
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby ohioboy » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:26 am

Indaswamp wrote:
ohioboy wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:Quoting this so it is not over looked...
Designed on the German system, the Tucker plan is to train children in specific jobs to serve the workforce and the global economy instead of to educate them so they can make their own life choices.


Do I need to clarify it any more than that???

Maybe as he originally designed it, it would be as you have quoted.

In reality, as a teacher, number three in the description on the link you listed, is the only reality.

National standards for education probably are pretty useful. This all stems from the south, Louisiana is one of the worst btw, being far behind the rest of the country in education. You should actually like this. It will be pumping money and resources into schools and areas that need help.

My school was part of a four year study on smaller learning communities. We got a big federal grant to test the theory out. It was not successful, and that is part of the reason that other than maybe Slack, none of you have heard of it.

Just in case you can't tell, I don't like it. I believe that the national education board should be abolished, it should be left to the states.


I know that for sure. And I get it.

I just think you would be horrified at how low your state would sink in the educational arena.
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby Indaswamp » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:27 am

ohioboy wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
ohioboy wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:Quoting this so it is not over looked...
Designed on the German system, the Tucker plan is to train children in specific jobs to serve the workforce and the global economy instead of to educate them so they can make their own life choices.


Do I need to clarify it any more than that???

Maybe as he originally designed it, it would be as you have quoted.

In reality, as a teacher, number three in the description on the link you listed, is the only reality.

National standards for education probably are pretty useful. This all stems from the south, Louisiana is one of the worst btw, being far behind the rest of the country in education. You should actually like this. It will be pumping money and resources into schools and areas that need help.

My school was part of a four year study on smaller learning communities. We got a big federal grant to test the theory out. It was not successful, and that is part of the reason that other than maybe Slack, none of you have heard of it.

Just in case you can't tell, I don't like it. I believe that the national education board should be abolished, it should be left to the states.


I know that for sure. And I get it.

I just think you would be horrified at how low your state would sink in the educational arena.

You truly don't get it do you?
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby SpinnerMan » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:28 am

Indaswamp wrote:Employees are reprimanded for making mistakes. Mistakes cost money to a business. Students are conditioned to accept that mistakes are bad....make too many mistakes and you fail a test....this is ass backwards to how the real world works!

In the real word, mistakes are how one learns lessons. In the real world, when a mistake is made, consequences of that mistake give you feed-back,instant feed back most times. the consequences happen FIRST, it's up to the individual to learn from the mistake; but someone conditioned to believe that mistakes are bad tries to avoid making mistakes. If they try to avoid making mistakes, they don't take chances, and learn in the real world. They rather stay in their comfort zone....yet if one tries to avoid making mistakes, how is that person going to learn anything? Most people have a strong negative association to mistakes because of their educational conditioning. mistakes are learning opportunities.

Also, students take tests as individuals, yet are expected to work as a team in a business environment, this is ass-backwards as well.

I could go on, but I'll stop here for now.

Mistakes ARE bad, but mistakes are inevitable. Where I disagree with the point I believe that you are making is that people are often conditioned to error on the side of doing nothing. The individual's consequences of that mistake are often not proportional to the consequences of the mistake. Sometimes the only way to learn is trial and error. That does not mean the errors are not bad. They are just inevitable and the consequences to the individual should be zero because going in it was trial and error. Now if you have an employee that can figure it out after a few trials and another that takes dozens, don't tell me those extra mistakes are not bad because they obviously are, but it's all relative.

In most situations there are two types of errors you can make. The classic is a medical test. You can have a false positive or a false negative. You cannot minimize the likelihood of both, so you have to decide on the relative consequences of the two types of error and then devise the test so the overall consequences of both types is minimized. For example if a false positive is near catastrophic and a false negative is not that costly, you live with a whole lot of false negatives so you have very few near catastrophic false negatives.

In life, you can fail from action and inaction. Failure from inaction is reinforced because you don't get blamed, you don't get sued, you can always point a finger, ... It's truly unfortunate because it creates a society of inaction and aversion to taking reasonable risks. Both types of failure are still bad.



BTW, wasn't Zimmerman basically being attacked for not acting like the cast of Seinfield? As George said "Why would you want to help some one?"

I don't know where you went to school, but I've never seen anywhere that team assignments were not part of the curriculum from a young age. What we learned when we were doing assigning our group projects was that if you did not assign the groups wisely, you were teaching slackers how to mooch off of the highly motivated students. Hey, we didn't realize we were involved in trial and error, but once we realized we had erred, we always tried to make sure the best students were in one group and the worst in another and everybody else grouped with similarly talented and motivated students. One of the best student I had ended up in a group with one of the lazier students and it was clear she carried far more than 1/4th of load. That was not fair to her and it surely didn't serve him well in the long run because it reinforced his slacker behavior, although we still gave him a D for the course.
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby Indaswamp » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:36 am

SpinnerMan wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:Employees are reprimanded for making mistakes. Mistakes cost money to a business. Students are conditioned to accept that mistakes are bad....make too many mistakes and you fail a test....this is ass backwards to how the real world works!

In the real word, mistakes are how one learns lessons. In the real world, when a mistake is made, consequences of that mistake give you feed-back,instant feed back most times. the consequences happen FIRST, it's up to the individual to learn from the mistake; but someone conditioned to believe that mistakes are bad tries to avoid making mistakes. If they try to avoid making mistakes, they don't take chances, and learn in the real world. They rather stay in their comfort zone....yet if one tries to avoid making mistakes, how is that person going to learn anything? Most people have a strong negative association to mistakes because of their educational conditioning. mistakes are learning opportunities.

Also, students take tests as individuals, yet are expected to work as a team in a business environment, this is ass-backwards as well.

I could go on, but I'll stop here for now.

Mistakes ARE bad

mistakes are only bad for the individual conditioned to believe that they are bad. mistakes are opportunities as well. A smart person/company can learn a lot from other peoples mistakes and capitalize on it. To learn a hands on skill like welding, the fastest way to learn is to fail faster....make more mistakes, and recover from them faster. Same way for an entrepreneur forging ahead with a new idea....
It's all in one's perception and conditioning-and formal schooling conditions people that mistakes are bad.


, but mistakes are inevitable. Where I disagree with the point I believe that you are making is that people are often conditioned to error on the side of doing nothing. The individual's consequences of that mistake are often not proportional to the consequences of the mistake. Sometimes the only way to learn is trial and error. That does not mean the errors are not bad. They are just inevitable and the consequences to the individual should be zero because going in it was trial and error. Now if you have an employee that can figure it out after a few trials and another that takes dozens, don't tell me those extra mistakes are not bad because they obviously are, but it's all relative.

In most situations there are two types of errors you can make. The classic is a medical test. You can have a false positive or a false negative. You cannot minimize the likelihood of both, so you have to decide on the relative consequences of the two types of error and then devise the test so the overall consequences of both types is minimized. For example if a false positive is near catastrophic and a false negative is not that costly, you live with a whole lot of false negatives so you have very few near catastrophic false negatives.

In life, you can fail from action and inaction. Failure from inaction is reinforced because you don't get blamed, you don't get sued, you can always point a finger, ... It's truly unfortunate because it creates a society of inaction and aversion to taking reasonable risks. Both types of failure are still bad.



BTW, wasn't Zimmerman basically being attacked for not acting like the cast of Seinfield? As George said "Why would you want to help some one?"

I don't know where you went to school, but I've never seen anywhere that team assignments were not part of the curriculum from a young age. What we learned when we were doing assigning our group projects was that if you did not assign the groups wisely, you were teaching slackers how to mooch off of the highly motivated students. Hey, we didn't realize we were involved in trial and error, but once we realized we had erred, we always tried to make sure the best students were in one group and the worst in another and everybody else grouped with similarly talented and motivated students. One of the best student I had ended up in a group with one of the lazier students and it was clear she carried far more than 1/4th of load. That was not fair to her and it surely didn't serve him well in the long run because it reinforced his slacker behavior, although we still gave him a D for the course.
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby Indaswamp » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:39 am

I'll give you a real life example-The famous New Orleans blackened redfish was a mistake! But look at how successful that was. A craze took off and people are making a lot of money selling "Blackened Redfish Seasoning".

Look at chewing gum....that was a mistake as well. but look at the profits in that industry-all from a mistake!
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby Gunnysway » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:47 am

Once you've done your critical thinking, how do you remember what you learned?

Memorization maybe...?

How can you have one and not the other?

Memorization: is the process of committing what's learned to memory. The act of memorization is often a deliberate mental process undertaken in order to store in memory for later recall, items such as names, experiences, stories, pictures, FACTS, music or other visual, auditory, or tactical information.

Just sayin'

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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby SpinnerMan » Fri Aug 09, 2013 8:59 am

Indaswamp wrote:I'll give you a real life example-The famous New Orleans blackened redfish was a mistake! But look at how successful that was. A craze took off and people are making a lot of money selling "Blackened Redfish Seasoning".

Look at chewing gum....that was a mistake as well. but look at the profits in that industry-all from a mistake!

No, they just thought it was a mistake, but they were mistaken :yes:

My father told me that he thought he was wrong once, but he was mistaken. :lol3:

I will concede that not every mistake turns out to be a negative. However the vast majority of mistakes are bad. Trial and error is not beneficial if you don't eventually stop making errors. If the errors weren't bad, you would just keep repeating them would you not? :yes: If you do keep repeating them, it means you are either insane and/or your intent is to not solve the problem and when it comes to liberals and their agenda, it seems both apply.
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby ohioboy » Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:00 am

Indaswamp wrote:I'll give you a real life example-The famous New Orleans blackened redfish was a mistake! But look at how successful that was. A craze took off and people are making a lot of money selling "Blackened Redfish Seasoning".

Look at chewing gum....that was a mistake as well. but look at the profits in that industry-all from a mistake!

Do I even need to list mistakes that are bad? No.

Inda, since you were in school, I would bet the systems of checks and balances in regards to grading, has changed drastically. I think most schools are pretty close to this:

I grade hw, but only for a minimal part of the grade. 10%
I give quizzes and other formative assessments 40%. This allows for mistakes to be made and corrected. I often will give a quiz multiple times just to bolster this risk taking.
Tests are graded as 50%. You do have to show mastery at some point.

It seems that people have a problem with the educational system as a whole, but when they list what they want I generally do them in my class. I say this to ease some of the venom directed at the whole system. I constantly ask Assa to come to my school. I encourage you to go to your kids school. I think most people will have some of their fears proven to be just that-a simple fear. Not a truth.
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