Hey Ohio- A test for today

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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby assateague » Thu Aug 08, 2013 12:12 pm

Simple question, Ohio- could 8th graders in Montgomery County pass this test?
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:09 pm

WTN10 wrote:I performed better with teachers who had discussions and who gave essay tests
Suck ups usually do :umm:

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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby WTN10 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:01 pm

I was far from a suck up. I was as I am now except without the pretense of kindness.
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:10 pm

WTN10 wrote:I was far from a suck up. I was as I am now except without the pretense of kindness.

That's what they all say :yes:
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby ohioboy » Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:26 pm

assateague wrote:
ohioboy wrote:
assateague wrote:You seem to prefer to believe that the way you are doing it is "the best", yet you offer no real proof that this is so. In fact, the vast majority of evidence, both anecdotal and otherwise, indicates that you have it completely ass backwards.

You stated that the 100 year old test was not "good" because it came straight form one teacher, and was done via rote memorization, or some such. Methods which you claim don't help students "think". And then you go on to claim that your methods are better, yet the students educated via your "approved" methods couldn't pass that test. Doesn't make any sense. If your methods of "hands-on, projects, and discussions" are superior, then why would they not enable a student to pass this 100 year old test?

Conversely, how many of those students taught in those "arcane, ineffective" (according to you) methods would pass the CURRENT 8th grade test? Probably all of them. And in 1/3 of the time.

My students would not because I would not teach most of that. It was something the teacher liked, she taught it, kids memorized it. She is not teaching thought.


This is eighth grade we're talking about, here. And let's look at some of those things you say were taught because "the teacher likes it":

How many steps 2' 4" each will a man take in walking 2 1/4 miles?

Student needs to know how to convert feet and inches to decimals, convert fractions to decimals, divide, subtract, know how many feet in a mile. Sure. Seems useless. Probably because the "teacher liked it".

Find cost at 12 1/2 cents per sq yd for kalsomining the walls of a room 20ft long, 16 ft wide, and 9 ft high, deducting one door 8 ft by 4' 6" and 2 windows 5 ft by 3 ft 6 inches each

Needs to know fundamental geometry calculations, including square footage, converting fractions to decimals, feet and inches to decimals and back again, multiplication, addition, subtraction, and spatial imaging. Not necessary at all. No need to teach it nowadays, I'm sure.

How many parts of speech are there? Name them.

I'm sure English structure has changed drastically in the last hundred years or so, so there's not possibly any time to teach the basics of our language, because of all that "new stuff", and all.

Define proper noun; common noun. Define the properties of each

See above.

Name and give the capitals of states touching the Ohio River

Needs to be able to read a map, identify geographic features, and be aware of the composition of the damn country they live in. But I'm sure that sort of thing was just "teacher preference". Let's ask 8th grade students in your county to name the states which touch the Potomac River and their capitals. Seeing as how that's their next door neighbor, maybe half of them would get it right. But I sincerely doubt it.

Through what waters would a vessel pass in going from England through the Suez Canal to Manila

Need to know world geography and map knowledge. And hey, bonus- everyone wants to claim we need to embrace the global economy/global community/global everything these days. What better way than to educate them about where crap is in the world? But nah, that's ok- you wouldn't bother teaching what is on this test. I wonder how many 8th graders even have a freaking clue what the Suez Canal is, or could point to the Philippines on a globe.

I can go on, but there's really no point. You get the point, you just don't want to acknowledge it. In fact, you just once again pooh-poohed it away

ohioboy wrote:My students would not because I would not teach most of that. It was something the teacher liked, she taught it, kids memorized it. She is not teaching thought.


Which has been demonstrated to be an incredibly asinine statement, even more so coming from a teacher.

Nice cherry picking.
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby ohioboy » Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:31 pm

assateague wrote:Simple question, Ohio- could 8th graders in Montgomery County pass this test?

No.

And those kids did not either. I posted the numbers.
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby vincentpa » Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:03 pm

WTN10 wrote:I was far from a suck up. I was as I am now except without the pretense of kindness.


I don't recall a pretense of kindness.


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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby vincentpa » Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:25 pm

That's funny that Spinner pointed out how useless it is to waste time with obsolete technology. I do a ton of math everyday in my personal and professional life. If I couldn't use basic math, I would be screwed. I got into a debate with my brother about 10 years ago. I was appalled when I found out the school allowed his high school and grade school aged children to use calculators in math class. He bought into the garbage the school was selling that the kids needed to understand and use the latest technology bawhahahaha! A calculator! I told him if the kids can't learn the basics without the use of a tool, they will never grasp the subject. You have to master the basics to advance to be able to use a tool that facilitates the problem. A computer is absolutely unnecessary to learn math, science, English or history. There is probably no one on this site except IT guys that uses a computer more than I to accomplish work. They don't count because their job is setting up computers for guys like me to utilize. The point is that I have to know the basics of math and engineering to be able to write programs and understand when the results given to me by the tool I'm utilizing to simplify my tasks is giving me garbage. I made it through grade school, high school and four semesters of calculus never using that new fangled invention called a calculator. It was unnecessary.


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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby vincentpa » Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:31 pm

A calculator and maybe a computer is useful for learning science or engineering. This frees the student from burdensome math to concentrate on the concepts of those subjects. Math must mastered first though! I always found it amusing when an engineering student couldn't use trig to find directional components of forces along a certain axis. They didn't last long. The use of the tool in these subjects does not apply to most of the others.


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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby ohioboy » Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:53 pm

vincentpa wrote:That's funny that Spinner pointed out how useless it is to waste time with obsolete technology. I do a ton of math everyday in my personal and professional life. If I couldn't use basic math, I would be screwed. I got into a debate with my brother about 10 years ago. I was appalled when I found out the school allowed his high school and grade school aged children to use calculators in math class. He bought into the garbage the school was selling that the kids needed to understand and use the latest technology bawhahahaha! A calculator! I told him if the kids can't learn the basics without the use of a tool, they will never grasp the subject. You have to master the basics to advance to be able to use a tool that facilitates the problem. A computer is absolutely unnecessary to learn math, science, English or history. There is probably no one on this site except IT guys that uses a computer more than I to accomplish work. They don't count because their job is setting up computers for guys like me to utilize. The point is that I have to know the basics of math and engineering to be able to write programs and understand when the results given to me by the tool I'm utilizing to simplify my tasks is giving me garbage. I made it through grade school, high school and four semesters of calculus never using that new fangled invention called a calculator. It was unnecessary.


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Good job. :lol:
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby assateague » Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:50 pm

ohioboy wrote:
assateague wrote:
ohioboy wrote:
assateague wrote:You seem to prefer to believe that the way you are doing it is "the best", yet you offer no real proof that this is so. In fact, the vast majority of evidence, both anecdotal and otherwise, indicates that you have it completely ass backwards.

You stated that the 100 year old test was not "good" because it came straight form one teacher, and was done via rote memorization, or some such. Methods which you claim don't help students "think". And then you go on to claim that your methods are better, yet the students educated via your "approved" methods couldn't pass that test. Doesn't make any sense. If your methods of "hands-on, projects, and discussions" are superior, then why would they not enable a student to pass this 100 year old test?

Conversely, how many of those students taught in those "arcane, ineffective" (according to you) methods would pass the CURRENT 8th grade test? Probably all of them. And in 1/3 of the time.

My students would not because I would not teach most of that. It was something the teacher liked, she taught it, kids memorized it. She is not teaching thought.


This is eighth grade we're talking about, here. And let's look at some of those things you say were taught because "the teacher likes it":

How many steps 2' 4" each will a man take in walking 2 1/4 miles?

Student needs to know how to convert feet and inches to decimals, convert fractions to decimals, divide, subtract, know how many feet in a mile. Sure. Seems useless. Probably because the "teacher liked it".

Find cost at 12 1/2 cents per sq yd for kalsomining the walls of a room 20ft long, 16 ft wide, and 9 ft high, deducting one door 8 ft by 4' 6" and 2 windows 5 ft by 3 ft 6 inches each

Needs to know fundamental geometry calculations, including square footage, converting fractions to decimals, feet and inches to decimals and back again, multiplication, addition, subtraction, and spatial imaging. Not necessary at all. No need to teach it nowadays, I'm sure.

How many parts of speech are there? Name them.

I'm sure English structure has changed drastically in the last hundred years or so, so there's not possibly any time to teach the basics of our language, because of all that "new stuff", and all.

Define proper noun; common noun. Define the properties of each

See above.

Name and give the capitals of states touching the Ohio River

Needs to be able to read a map, identify geographic features, and be aware of the composition of the damn country they live in. But I'm sure that sort of thing was just "teacher preference". Let's ask 8th grade students in your county to name the states which touch the Potomac River and their capitals. Seeing as how that's their next door neighbor, maybe half of them would get it right. But I sincerely doubt it.

Through what waters would a vessel pass in going from England through the Suez Canal to Manila

Need to know world geography and map knowledge. And hey, bonus- everyone wants to claim we need to embrace the global economy/global community/global everything these days. What better way than to educate them about where crap is in the world? But nah, that's ok- you wouldn't bother teaching what is on this test. I wonder how many 8th graders even have a freaking clue what the Suez Canal is, or could point to the Philippines on a globe.

I can go on, but there's really no point. You get the point, you just don't want to acknowledge it. In fact, you just once again pooh-poohed it away

ohioboy wrote:My students would not because I would not teach most of that. It was something the teacher liked, she taught it, kids memorized it. She is not teaching thought.


Which has been demonstrated to be an incredibly asinine statement, even more so coming from a teacher.

Nice cherry picking.



When I have more time, I'll certainly do every one for you.
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby assateague » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:08 pm

And I'm still waiting to discover these magical "statistics" you keep referencing which refute my point. Haven't seen anything close, yet.
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby ohioboy » Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:02 pm

for Assa,
1,367 Persons 7-13 Years of Age Attending School
290 Total Persons 14 and 15 Years of Age Attending School
144 Total Persons 16 and 17 Years of Age Attending School
76 Persons 18-20 Years of Age Attending School

This is from http://www.bullittcountyhistory.com/bch ... .html#1920

So apparently lots passed the test then too. @ would you read that into these numbers?
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby ohioboy » Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:10 pm

Assa, please ask someone else to look at this. you realize your "test" you are trying so hard to validate has numerous misspellings and other random grammatical errors? i see them.. and as you have pointed out, i am not that smart. you really want to trust this as your cross to nail teachers to? :huh:

when will you realize it is not just the teachers? i think vincent said it earlier, it is an integrated problem. i wish it was that easy. if it was, i would quit. i want kids to succeed. if i felt i was hampering that, i would quit. i dont do it for the money or fame or glory. i do it for the kids. i love my job. :smile:

again, i ask, what do you do? why hide it? i have nothing to hide. i answer all questions. :no:
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby ohioboy » Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:18 pm

Assa, more for you. you are smart, remember?

"The increasing rates of school attendance have been reflected in rising proportions of adults completing high school and college. Progressively fewer adults have limited their education to completion of the 8th grade which was typical in the early part of the century. In 1940, more than half of the U.S. population had completed no more than an eighth grade education. Only 6 percent of males and 4 percent of females had completed 4 years of college. The median years of school attained by the adult population, 25 years old and over, had registered only a scant rise from 8.1 to 8.6 years over a 30 year period from 1910 to 1940."

http://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp


even with the original numbers i gave you, this helps to show who was actually going to school and for how long.
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby Indaswamp » Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:27 pm

ohioboy wrote:Assa, more for you. you are smart, remember?

"The increasing rates of school attendance have been reflected in rising proportions of adults completing high school and college. Progressively fewer adults have limited their education to completion of the 8th grade which was typical in the early part of the century. In 1940, more than half of the U.S. population had completed no more than an eighth grade education. Only 6 percent of males and 4 percent of females had completed 4 years of college. The median years of school attained by the adult population, 25 years old and over, had registered only a scant rise from 8.1 to 8.6 years over a 30 year period from 1910 to 1940."

http://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp


even with the original numbers i gave you, this helps to show who was actually going to school and for how long.

you are missing the point. It's not what they are taught, or how long they are taught, it's how and why they are taught.
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby ohioboy » Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:29 pm

Indaswamp wrote:
ohioboy wrote:Assa, more for you. you are smart, remember?

"The increasing rates of school attendance have been reflected in rising proportions of adults completing high school and college. Progressively fewer adults have limited their education to completion of the 8th grade which was typical in the early part of the century. In 1940, more than half of the U.S. population had completed no more than an eighth grade education. Only 6 percent of males and 4 percent of females had completed 4 years of college. The median years of school attained by the adult population, 25 years old and over, had registered only a scant rise from 8.1 to 8.6 years over a 30 year period from 1910 to 1940."

http://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp


even with the original numbers i gave you, this helps to show who was actually going to school and for how long.

you are missing the point. It's not how what they are taught, or how long they are taught, it's how and why they are taught.

Why? I am lost.
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby Indaswamp » Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:31 pm

ohioboy wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
ohioboy wrote:Assa, more for you. you are smart, remember?

"The increasing rates of school attendance have been reflected in rising proportions of adults completing high school and college. Progressively fewer adults have limited their education to completion of the 8th grade which was typical in the early part of the century. In 1940, more than half of the U.S. population had completed no more than an eighth grade education. Only 6 percent of males and 4 percent of females had completed 4 years of college. The median years of school attained by the adult population, 25 years old and over, had registered only a scant rise from 8.1 to 8.6 years over a 30 year period from 1910 to 1940."

http://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp


even with the original numbers i gave you, this helps to show who was actually going to school and for how long.

you are missing the point. It's not how what they are taught, or how long they are taught, it's how and why they are taught.

Why? I am lost.

you must have missed the links I posted....
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby ohioboy » Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:32 pm

Inda, he is trying to compare a test from 100 years ago to today. Does not compute.
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby Indaswamp » Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:34 pm

round 2....
Indaswamp wrote:Went ahead and pulled out this link (which is in the congressional record) just to back up what I am saying.
http://www.eagleforum.org/educate/marc_tucker/marc_tucker_letter.html

Students are not taught to think, they are taught to conform and find the "right" answer and to be "good employees".

Tucker's plan would change the mission of the schools from teaching children academic basics and knowledge to training them to serve the global economy in jobs selected by workforce boards. Nothing in this comprehensive plan has anything to do with teaching schoolchildren how to read, write, or calculate.


but read it for yourself, don't take my word for it...
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby Indaswamp » Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:37 pm

ohioboy wrote:Inda, he is trying to compare a test from 100 years ago to today. Does not compute.

teaching was different back then. Motives for teaching were different back then. Prior to the industrial revolution, the goals of education were different. The Dept. of Education was formed to revamp the education system in america to produce employee minded individuals. (see above quotes and links) This is part of what Assa is driving at.....
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby ohioboy » Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:40 pm

Indaswamp wrote:round 2....
Indaswamp wrote:Went ahead and pulled out this link (which is in the congressional record) just to back up what I am saying.
http://www.eagleforum.org/educate/marc_tucker/marc_tucker_letter.html

Students are not taught to think, they are taught to conform and find the "right" answer and to be "good employees".

Tucker's plan would change the mission of the schools from teaching children academic basics and knowledge to training them to serve the global economy in jobs selected by workforce boards. Nothing in this comprehensive plan has anything to do with teaching schoolchildren how to read, write, or calculate.


but read it for yourself, don't take my word for it...

Inda, I just skimmed. Not sure who the hell is supposed to like this one. It's late, twins up early.. .
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby Indaswamp » Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:44 pm

ohioboy wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:round 2....
Indaswamp wrote:Went ahead and pulled out this link (which is in the congressional record) just to back up what I am saying.
http://www.eagleforum.org/educate/marc_tucker/marc_tucker_letter.html

Students are not taught to think, they are taught to conform and find the "right" answer and to be "good employees".

Tucker's plan would change the mission of the schools from teaching children academic basics and knowledge to training them to serve the global economy in jobs selected by workforce boards. Nothing in this comprehensive plan has anything to do with teaching schoolchildren how to read, write, or calculate.


but read it for yourself, don't take my word for it...

Inda, I just skimmed. Not sure who the hell is supposed to like this one. It's late, twins up early.. .

not sure what you mean by that statement. I'm just showing you the reality of our education system. that change has already happened under the clinton administration.
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby Indaswamp » Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:55 pm

Employees are reprimanded for making mistakes. Mistakes cost money to a business. Students are conditioned to accept that mistakes are bad....make too many mistakes and you fail a test....this is ass backwards to how the real world works!

In the real word, mistakes are how one learns lessons. In the real world, when a mistake is made, consequences of that mistake give you feed-back,instant feed back most times. the consequences happen FIRST, it's up to the individual to learn from the mistake; but someone conditioned to believe that mistakes are bad tries to avoid making mistakes. If they try to avoid making mistakes, they don't take chances, and learn in the real world. They rather stay in their comfort zone....yet if one tries to avoid making mistakes, how is that person going to learn anything? Most people have a strong negative association to mistakes because of their educational conditioning. mistakes are learning opportunities.

Also, students take tests as individuals, yet are expected to work as a team in a business environment, this is ass-backwards as well.

I could go on, but I'll stop here for now.
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Re: Hey Ohio- A test for today

Postby assateague » Fri Aug 09, 2013 12:28 am

Ohio, show me where I said its the fault of teachers. I'll wait.
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