Just legalize it already......

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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby wanapasaki » Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:34 pm

jehler wrote:
wanapasaki wrote:
jehler wrote:I think I've sampled every drug out there, run two business' and have a great family. Haven't done any illegal drugs since 96, the drugs are not the problem. Stupid people are, and they aren't going anywhere. Prohibition never works, and creates more problems then it sets out to cure. Where would we be if the country wasnt set back 100 years with 18th amendment?


have you ever tried peyote? :lol3:

Not yet

:lol3:
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby clampdaddy » Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:35 pm

wanapasaki wrote:
clampdaddy wrote:
wanapasaki wrote:We might need to keep an eye on the cost of foods, with all the munchies going on :lol3:

California would be to marijuana as the South was/is to tobacco. I suspect food costs would go up some.


LOL I think in California, marijuana already is tobacco to the south. I heard that these guys can have up to 100 seedlings and a dozen full grown plants within their properties.


My wife has relatives that grow for the medicinal shops. They are firmly against full legalization for the simple reason that they are making good money and their market would instantly disappear. We've had some heated debates on the issue. If it were legalized and a dairy farmer decides he's better off selling his cows and planting 300 acres of dank where his corn used to go, the prices will fall like a lead balloon and it won't be worth it to a guy to mess with 100 plants.

I also hear the people who are against it use the argument that people will all grow their own to get around paying taxes on it. What percentage of smokers grow their own tobacco? How many people brew or distill their own alcohol? A few, but overall, not very many.
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby wanapasaki » Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:36 pm

Very true, good point
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby assateague » Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:02 pm

High Sierras wrote:If we legalize marijuana, why not add all the other botanical pharmaceutical's?


You then go on to include cocaine and heroin, which, while not synthetic, are far from botanical. Coca leaves and opium poppies are not bad for you. When they are mixed with ammonia, gasoline, diesel fuel, some sulfuric acid, and cut with various other assorted crap, I would argue that they are as much a "botanical" as a car is "iron ore".
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby clampdaddy » Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:23 pm

assateague wrote: You then go on to include cocaine and heroin, which, while not synthetic, are far from botanical. Coca leaves and opium poppies are not bad for you. When they are mixed with ammonia, gasoline, diesel fuel, some sulfuric acid, and cut with various other assorted crap, I would argue that they are as much a "botanical" as a car is "iron ore".


Once in a great while I'll catch a wiff of diesel fuel and it still reminds me of my partying days. :lol3:
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby 3200 man » Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:14 pm

I always wondered about you Clamp , but wow what a good time it was then , watching as the (this is Great ) passed
through their lungs and system . Right on Man !
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby clampdaddy » Sun Aug 18, 2013 9:11 pm

3200 man wrote:I always wondered about you Clamp.....

Well Larry, to take a quote from G Dubya Bush......"When I was young and irresponsible, I was young and irresponsible.". But to be totally honest, if it wasn't for my commercial drivers license I'd still partake from time to time.
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby ohioboy » Sun Aug 18, 2013 10:08 pm

assateague wrote:
High Sierras wrote:If we legalize marijuana, why not add all the other botanical pharmaceutical's?


You then go on to include cocaine and heroin, which, while not synthetic, are far from botanical. Coca leaves and opium poppies are not bad for you. When they are mixed with ammonia, gasoline, diesel fuel, some sulfuric acid, and cut with various other assorted crap, I would argue that they are as much a "botanical" as a car is "iron ore".

:lol3: That made me laugh.
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby slowshooter » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:52 am

Don't you know that since pot is illegal - and if it's legalized then society will crumble because ALL LAWS WILL BE REVOKED!

Decriminalization is a GATEWAY POLICY! The first one is free then the rest will cost us EVERYTHING!!!!!

My gaawd!!! Civilization will END!!!!!


LOL!.

I don't even touch the stuff and I could care less if anyone else does. I say put the drug pushers out of business so they are forced to commit burglaries, then they can get shot by 103 year old Methuselahs who won't put up with sneaky whippersnappers popping in through a window.
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby Andy W » Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:57 am

slowshooter wrote:I don't even touch the stuff

You're claiming that you aren't high when you type these replies?? :huh:
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:25 am

assateague wrote:
High Sierras wrote:If we legalize marijuana, why not add all the other botanical pharmaceutical's?


You then go on to include cocaine and heroin, which, while not synthetic, are far from botanical. Coca leaves and opium poppies are not bad for you. When they are mixed with ammonia, gasoline, diesel fuel, some sulfuric acid, and cut with various other assorted crap, I would argue that they are as much a "botanical" as a car is "iron ore".

Also from what I understand, the current crop is about as botanical as any other domestic plant or animal. Selective breeding has been used to produce plants that have vastly more of the desired properties than Mother Nature ever intended. But natural doesn't mean it's OK for a lack of a better word. I guess by that standard, we should be allowed to smoke hemlock, lick toads, eat any poisonous or hallucinogenic mushrooms or ... Hey if it kills you or makes you high, it's all botanical :yes:

I am all for personal responsibility and if you want to lick toads that screw up your brain, if you are an adult, c'est la vie, but it is all on you. If you have kids and you are screwing up your life, we aren't going to let you screw up your kids life. If you are endangering your own life, we aren't going to let you endanger other people's life. If you can't feed your self, well, you better find a way to beat your addiction or find a person to be your enabler because you are not legally entitled to a single penny from other people taken via the power of government.

I'm all for liberal (classical definition and not a pseudonym for leftism) drug laws for adults, but we must have zero tolerance for enabling minors to get drugs. If done right, we can radically reduce the access minors have to drugs and that is all I care about. If you get to 18 without having smoked cigarettes, smoked crack, or used any other highly addictive drugs or used other less addictive drugs more than on very rare occasions, the odds of them ruining your life goes down a whole lot.

Personally, I like a system where possession remains illegal and the punishment gets much more harsh, but as an adult you can go to a business licensed and monitored much like we do with pharmaceuticals where you can purchase and consume your drugs on the premises. And if anyone is caught providing drugs to minors :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:

When you are selling drugs when the only market is a black market, the risk/reward ratio for selling to minors is not that different than selling to an adult. I want to radically change that such that selling to a minor is a serious risk (jail time and lose your very lucrative business for the drug house proprietors) and the availability of legal alternatives will dry up most of the black market.

There is no reason that the ONLY alternatives are 100% illegal and 100% legal where you can walk into Walmart and walk out with a pound of pot. We have many tightly controlled drugs used legitimately for medicine. Do the same for recreational drugs, except do not allow the person to carry them out the door and if they do :hammer: :hammer: :hammer: Just like we have limits on how much sudafedrine people can buy so they can't use it to make meth, do the exact same thing with the recreational drugs.

Once we dry up most of the black market, we have a big hammer to hold over the head of the junkies. If they get busted for a crime, they go in the system and they lose the ability to legally buy their drugs. If you want to get a CDL, you go into the system and can't buy drugs. If you want a job as a teacher, sorry no drugs. If you want to voluntarily put your self into the system, no drugs.

After greatly reducing the minors access to drugs, the second most important thing is drying up the black market and all the violence and crime associated with that.
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby jehler » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:12 am

Don't let people carry them out the door? Alright Spock
Buy it, use it, break it, fix it,
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:16 am

jehler wrote:Don't let people carry them out the door? Alright Spock

Spock was right far more than he was wrong, so are you saying that it is a good idea and a logical middle ground between where we are and treating them like aspirin. :huh:
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby jehler » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:49 am

SpinnerMan wrote:
jehler wrote:Don't let people carry them out the door? Alright Spock

Spock was right far more than he was wrong, so are you saying that it is a good idea and a logical middle ground between where we are and treating them like aspirin. :huh:

no, I think logically it is genius, but in practice still way too prohibitive to shut down the black market, in fact it would make the black markets logistics much easier. it should all be legalized and restricted like meds and alcohol is now. a mans home is his castle and he should be able to do what he pleases there for the most part
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby sprigs4days » Mon Aug 19, 2013 9:51 am

wanapasaki wrote:
clampdaddy wrote:
wanapasaki wrote:We might need to keep an eye on the cost of foods, with all the munchies going on :lol3:

California would be to marijuana as the South was/is to tobacco. I suspect food costs would go up some.


LOL I think in California, marijuana already is tobacco to the south. I heard that these guys can have up to 100 CLONES and a dozen full grown plants within their properties.

FIFY


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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby assateague » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:06 am

Shrooms (yes, those kind) grow in my horse manure pile. I can buy opium poppy seeds, and grow them. I can cultivate a cactus full of peyote. Substitute "marijuana" for any of those other things, and I've got a problem. Why is that? There is absolutely no logical, rational reason for it. None.
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:12 am

jehler wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
jehler wrote:Don't let people carry them out the door? Alright Spock

Spock was right far more than he was wrong, so are you saying that it is a good idea and a logical middle ground between where we are and treating them like aspirin. :huh:

no, I think logically it is genius, but in practice still way too prohibitive to shut down the black market, in fact it would make the black markets logistics much easier. it should all be legalized and restricted like meds and alcohol is now. a mans home is his castle and he should be able to do what he pleases there for the most part

I think the bigger danger is the desire of politicians to tax it at rates that would protect the black market. I think we are getting close to the point of a wide spread black market in tobacco because of the insane tax rates.

The way I would do it, it would be the low cost alternative by a mile. The argument for going lightly on people breaking possession laws is greatly undermined because they have a legal option, so why not :hammer: those breaking the law?

I do have a real practical concern in that if the tax was set so sky high that the black market cost is cheaper. Another practical concern is that there will be a very slow creation of local facilities in many markets while pandering politicians stick their head in the sand and/or hop up on their moral high horse.

However, it should be very easy to wipe out the competitive advantage that the black market has. That's why there is very little black market for many highly regulated things. Would they do it or make it worse? OK, it is the government so you may have a point.

I think there should NEVER be a sin tax. Even the government should not disproportionately profit from sin, although that does seem to imply they are taking on the role of evil which always benefits from sin :huh: It's true that profit clouds judgment and that is just as true when it is the government that is profiting, so why would we want their judgment clouded from huge revenue from what society generally views as harmful behavior? Alcohol, tobacco, currently illegal drugs, gambling, prostitution, etc., any legal sin should be treated in terms of taxes, just like all other businesses and the government for damn sure should never be the proprietor like they are with gambling in so many states.
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby shoveler_shooter » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:29 am

SpinnerMan wrote:Once we dry up most of the black market, we have a big hammer to hold over the head of the junkies. If they get busted for a crime, they go in the system and they lose the ability to legally buy their drugs.

Key word - legally.
You're underestimating how powerful the addiction is. I have seen them steal from their own family in order to get their fix. They can't think rationally and simply don't give a sh1t. They will just bust into the store selling the drugs and steal them, or die trying.
Perhaps I have just seen an extreme case but that's my point of view.
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby assateague » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:35 am

I have never seen, or heard of, such actions pertaining to marijuana.
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby slowshooter » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:37 am

Andy W wrote:
slowshooter wrote:I don't even touch the stuff

You're claiming that you aren't high when you type these replies?? :huh:


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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby slowshooter » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:38 am

SpinnerMan wrote:
assateague wrote:
High Sierras wrote:If we legalize marijuana, why not add all the other botanical pharmaceutical's?


You then go on to include cocaine and heroin, which, while not synthetic, are far from botanical. Coca leaves and opium poppies are not bad for you. When they are mixed with ammonia, gasoline, diesel fuel, some sulfuric acid, and cut with various other assorted crap, I would argue that they are as much a "botanical" as a car is "iron ore".

Also from what I understand, the current crop is about as botanical as any other domestic plant or animal. Selective breeding has been used to produce plants that have vastly more of the desired properties than Mother Nature ever intended. But natural doesn't mean it's OK for a lack of a better word. I guess by that standard, we should be allowed to smoke hemlock, lick toads, eat any poisonous or hallucinogenic mushrooms or ... Hey if it kills you or makes you high, it's all botanical :yes:

I am all for personal responsibility and if you want to lick toads that screw up your brain, if you are an adult, c'est la vie, but it is all on you. If you have kids and you are screwing up your life, we aren't going to let you screw up your kids life. If you are endangering your own life, we aren't going to let you endanger other people's life. If you can't feed your self, well, you better find a way to beat your addiction or find a person to be your enabler because you are not legally entitled to a single penny from other people taken via the power of government.

I'm all for liberal (classical definition and not a pseudonym for leftism) drug laws for adults, but we must have zero tolerance for enabling minors to get drugs. If done right, we can radically reduce the access minors have to drugs and that is all I care about. If you get to 18 without having smoked cigarettes, smoked crack, or used any other highly addictive drugs or used other less addictive drugs more than on very rare occasions, the odds of them ruining your life goes down a whole lot.

Personally, I like a system where possession remains illegal and the punishment gets much more harsh, but as an adult you can go to a business licensed and monitored much like we do with pharmaceuticals where you can purchase and consume your drugs on the premises. And if anyone is caught providing drugs to minors :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:

When you are selling drugs when the only market is a black market, the risk/reward ratio for selling to minors is not that different than selling to an adult. I want to radically change that such that selling to a minor is a serious risk (jail time and lose your very lucrative business for the drug house proprietors) and the availability of legal alternatives will dry up most of the black market.

There is no reason that the ONLY alternatives are 100% illegal and 100% legal where you can walk into Walmart and walk out with a pound of pot. We have many tightly controlled drugs used legitimately for medicine. Do the same for recreational drugs, except do not allow the person to carry them out the door and if they do :hammer: :hammer: :hammer: Just like we have limits on how much sudafedrine people can buy so they can't use it to make meth, do the exact same thing with the recreational drugs.

Once we dry up most of the black market, we have a big hammer to hold over the head of the junkies. If they get busted for a crime, they go in the system and they lose the ability to legally buy their drugs. If you want to get a CDL, you go into the system and can't buy drugs. If you want a job as a teacher, sorry no drugs. If you want to voluntarily put your self into the system, no drugs.

After greatly reducing the minors access to drugs, the second most important thing is drying up the black market and all the violence and crime associated with that.



That sounds like big government to me you hypocrite! :lol3:
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby shoveler_shooter » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:49 am

assateague wrote:I have never seen, or heard of, such actions pertaining to marijuana.

I'm about 100% sure this was marijuana.
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:12 am

shoveler_shooter wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:Once we dry up most of the black market, we have a big hammer to hold over the head of the junkies. If they get busted for a crime, they go in the system and they lose the ability to legally buy their drugs.

Key word - legally.
You're underestimating how powerful the addiction is. I have seen them steal from their own family in order to get their fix. They can't think rationally and simply don't give a sh1t. They will just bust into the store selling the drugs and steal them, or die trying.
Perhaps I have just seen an extreme case but that's my point of view.

I am well aware of how strong the addiction is. This is why it can't be a half-assed legalization that keeps the black market viable.

Two objectives.

1. Radically reduce the availability of drugs to minors.
2. Eviscerate the black market

And really only objective one is the only one I care about. If you could do that, the rest I do not care about. Adults need to be treated like adults and if they screw up their own life, that's their problem, if they do something that makes them someone else's problem :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:

If kids get to 18 and actually got a legitimate education and are not addicted to tobacco, alcohol, or other drugs, we as a society have fulfilled our responsibility to the children. After that it is their responsibility as an adult to take responsibility for themselves, regardless of how little help they get from their screwed up parents or any other disadvantage they have, save for severe mental or physical defects.

shoveler_shooter wrote:They will just bust into the store selling the drugs and steal them, or die trying.
This happens, but it doesn't happen often. And it a very large fraction of the cases where people screw their lives up with drugs, it was because they started when they were a minor.

Also, as an adult, if most people were getting their drugs legally from a place where you had to go there specifically to buy drugs and not at a college party, it would greatly reduce the number of adults that try them causally with friends. It's easy to say what the hell when someone offers you something, it's not nearly as likely if you have to get into a car and drive somewhere for the specific purpose of giving it a try.

Also, the black market usually puts much greater value on the higher potency. They weren't selling a lot of 3.2 beer during prohibition. The high potency is also more likely to trigger the addition from what I understand.
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby dudejcb » Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:13 pm

WTN10 wrote:I'd vote to legalize it all.
Harmonic convergence! We agree.

make it legal, make it cheap, save a ton of money on interdiction, police, court and prison. Use the savings for education. In a "free" country if someone wants to take themselves out of the picture by being and uber dope ... let 'em. That said, there should be times when it's illegal just as it's illegal to drive drunk.
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby beretta24 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 12:54 am

dudejcb wrote:
WTN10 wrote:I'd vote to legalize it all.
Harmonic convergence! We agree.

make it legal, make it cheap, save a ton of money on interdiction, police, court and prison. Use the savings for education. In a "free" country if someone wants to take themselves out of the picture by being and uber dope ... let 'em. That said, there should be times when it's illegal just as it's illegal to drive drunk.


You lost me at education. We spend keep spending more as a percentage of GDP and our ROI goes down the schitter because we spend it on iPads and controlling curriculum instead of letting teachers teach.

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