Just legalize it already......

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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby Slack Tide » Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:49 am

beretta24 wrote: instead of letting teachers teach.


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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby beretta24 » Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:46 am

Slack Tide wrote:
beretta24 wrote: instead of letting teachers teach.


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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby dudejcb » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:08 pm

beretta24 wrote:
dudejcb wrote:
WTN10 wrote:I'd vote to legalize it all.
Harmonic convergence! We agree.

make it legal, make it cheap, save a ton of money on interdiction, police, court and prison. Use the savings for education. In a "free" country if someone wants to take themselves out of the picture by being and uber dope ... let 'em. That said, there should be times when it's illegal just as it's illegal to drive drunk.


You lost me at education. We spend keep spending more as a percentage of GDP and our ROI goes down the schitter because we spend it on iPads and controlling curriculum instead of letting teachers teach.

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I was referring to drug education. It's one thing to occasionally do some recreational soft drugs in a safe environment, quite another to let drugs do you (overtake your life) so you become a statistic.
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby SpinnerMan » Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:29 pm

dudejcb wrote:make it legal
Agree 100%

dudejcb wrote:make it cheap
Agree 100%

dudejcb wrote:save a ton of money on interdiction, police, court and prison.
Don't agree at all. Spend the exact same resources focused on the remaining criminal activity. Don't cut the budget for policing or jails one bit. You now focus more pressure on crimes against others and not against yourself and what you for damn sure do not do is piss them away on other things like
dudejcb wrote:Use the savings for education.
That will work just as well as all the extra lottery money has been spent so well on educations. How about paying teachers market rates and not monopoly rates and using the massive savings on education? :huh: Money is not the issue for poor performance. Monopoly power is one of them. Accepting schools to fraudulently promote kids when they don't meat standards is. We would never accept that for trivial things, but it's acceptable for something as vital as our children's education? :no:

dudejcb wrote:In a "free" country if someone wants to take themselves out of the picture by being and uber dope ... let 'em.
Glad to see that you are a closet right-winger :thumbsup:

dudejcb wrote:That said, there should be times when it's illegal just as it's illegal to drive drunk.
You can't endanger others, it is one of the few things government should be actually be doing. Protecting innocent people from the actions of others. They should not be protecting people from themselves. It's a hard standard to live by when you see so many morons out there, but using the force of government to "help" them is not the answer. That is unless I'm the one that gets to decide on how needs help and how much :yes:
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby Glimmerjim » Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:28 am

To those opining that any strain of marijuana is highly addictive I think a little study is in order. It can be habit forming. So can eating peanut butter. It can be a drag for a while not having it when you are used to it. Thinking of anyone as breaking and entering to steal to support the habit, stealing from relatives after the mental age of 16 to procure it, running wild-eyed through the streets looking for a woman to rape are spending a little too much time on classic tv networks watching "Reefer Madness." Caffeine, nicotine, and most things prescribed by a Physician for pain are MUCH more physically addictive. I've yet to hear of anyone "kicking the sheets" because he dropped and broke his bong. Or really, for that matter, have I yet to hear of anyone that decides to quit smoking weed, due to job requirements or personal commitments, go through a bunch of "falling off the wagon" episodes.
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby beretta24 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 12:43 am

dudejcb wrote:
beretta24 wrote:
dudejcb wrote:
WTN10 wrote:I'd vote to legalize it all.
Harmonic convergence! We agree.

make it legal, make it cheap, save a ton of money on interdiction, police, court and prison. Use the savings for education. In a "free" country if someone wants to take themselves out of the picture by being and uber dope ... let 'em. That said, there should be times when it's illegal just as it's illegal to drive drunk.


You lost me at education. We spend keep spending more as a percentage of GDP and our ROI goes down the schitter because we spend it on iPads and controlling curriculum instead of letting teachers teach.

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I was referring to drug education. It's one thing to occasionally do some recreational soft drugs in a safe environment, quite another to let drugs do you (overtake your life) so you become a statistic.

Ah, I see what what you're saying now.

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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby boney fingers » Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:23 am

Im all for legalization from a freedom standpoint, but only a fool thinks it will save money. Theses people will either end up in prison for other offences or end up on the public dole. If Im going to spend money supporting these losers, then I would just assume spend it on keeping them in prisons where they cant effect my family. If people want the freedom to wreck their lives with drugs, then I want the freedom to not have to pay for their rehab or support them when they are not productive members of society. After it is legal, I also want the freedom to, as an employer, to fire any one who uses and not have to pay unemployment. Uses want the freedom to destroy their lives, but then expect the rest of us to pick up the pieces for them when they hit bottom; I say, let them dwell on bottom where they belong.
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby assateague » Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:05 am

Glimmerjim wrote:To those opining that any strain of marijuana is highly addictive I think a little study is in order. It can be habit forming. So can eating peanut butter. It can be a drag for a while not having it when you are used to it. Thinking of anyone as breaking and entering to steal to support the habit, stealing from relatives after the mental age of 16 to procure it, running wild-eyed through the streets looking for a woman to rape are spending a little too much time on classic tv networks watching "Reefer Madness." Caffeine, nicotine, and most things prescribed by a Physician for pain are MUCH more physically addictive. I've yet to hear of anyone "kicking the sheets" because he dropped and broke his bong. Or really, for that matter, have I yet to hear of anyone that decides to quit smoking weed, due to job requirements or personal commitments, go through a bunch of "falling off the wagon" episodes.



x2
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby Gunnysway » Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:53 am

boney fingers wrote:Im all for legalization from a freedom standpoint, but only a fool thinks it will save money. Theses people will either end up in prison for other offences or end up on the public dole. If Im going to spend money supporting these losers, then I would just assume spend it on keeping them in prisons where they cant effect my family. If people want the freedom to wreck their lives with drugs, then I want the freedom to not have to pay for their rehab or support them when they are not productive members of society. After it is legal, I also want the freedom to, as an employer, to fire any one who uses and not have to pay unemployment. Uses want the freedom to destroy their lives, but then expect the rest of us to pick up the pieces for them when they hit bottom; I say, let them dwell on bottom where they belong.




Yeah... just like the people that drink alcohol and smoke cigs... I say lock 'em up and throw away the key... :no:

The "Just say no" campeign is a joke, has not worked and never will... Like gun control...


The funny thing is, you are probably good friends/family or know someone you really like and would trust your life with that is a pot head. There is most assuredly someone you work with that smokes weed.

You don't think so...?


You have a lot to learn...
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby go get the bird » Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:54 am

assateague wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:To those opining that any strain of marijuana is highly addictive I think a little study is in order. It can be habit forming. So can eating peanut butter. It can be a drag for a while not having it when you are used to it. Thinking of anyone as breaking and entering to steal to support the habit, stealing from relatives after the mental age of 16 to procure it, running wild-eyed through the streets looking for a woman to rape are spending a little too much time on classic tv networks watching "Reefer Madness." Caffeine, nicotine, and most things prescribed by a Physician for pain are MUCH more physically addictive. I've yet to hear of anyone "kicking the sheets" because he dropped and broke his bong. Or really, for that matter, have I yet to hear of anyone that decides to quit smoking weed, due to job requirements or personal commitments, go through a bunch of "falling off the wagon" episodes.



x2

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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby Slack Tide » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:23 pm

beretta24 wrote:
Slack Tide wrote:
beretta24 wrote: instead of letting teachers teach.

I love you man!

I'm taken


I'm down with a threesome! :clapping:
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby ohioboy » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:40 pm

Slack Tide wrote:
beretta24 wrote:
Slack Tide wrote:
beretta24 wrote: instead of letting teachers teach.

I love you man!

I'm taken


I'm down with a threesome! :clapping:

that took an interesting turn. :lol3:
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby Andy W » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:48 pm

ohioboy wrote:that took an interesting turn. :lol3:

Interesting or scary?
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby go get the bird » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:54 pm

Andy W wrote:
ohioboy wrote:that took an interesting turn. :lol3:

Interesting or sexy?

FIFY
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby beretta24 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:57 pm

SMH
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby boney fingers » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:21 pm

Gunnysway wrote:
boney fingers wrote:Im all for legalization from a freedom standpoint, but only a fool thinks it will save money. Theses people will either end up in prison for other offences or end up on the public dole. If Im going to spend money supporting these losers, then I would just assume spend it on keeping them in prisons where they cant effect my family. If people want the freedom to wreck their lives with drugs, then I want the freedom to not have to pay for their rehab or support them when they are not productive members of society. After it is legal, I also want the freedom to, as an employer, to fire any one who uses and not have to pay unemployment. Uses want the freedom to destroy their lives, but then expect the rest of us to pick up the pieces for them when they hit bottom; I say, let them dwell on bottom where they belong.




Yeah... just like the people that drink alcohol and smoke cigs... I say lock 'em up and throw away the key... :no:

The "Just say no" campeign is a joke, has not worked and never will... Like gun control...


The funny thing is, you are probably good friends/family or know someone you really like and would trust your life with that is a pot head. There is most assuredly someone you work with that smokes weed.

You don't think so...?


You have a lot to learn...



I know plenty of friends and family that are pot smokers (and none of them are in prison for it); your point? Ive worked with plenty of people that smoke dope and I find them generally lazy when high and moody when not. , However none of this really pertains to my point that legalization wont solve the drug problem any more than ending prohibition ended the alcohol problem. Last I checked, people still drink and drive, still beat their wife and kids when drunk, still neglect their families due to alcohol, still assault others when drunk, and the mob didn't disappear and 25- 35% of incarcerations are directly linked to booze. And guess what, unless you want a mind altering drug isle at Toys R Us, then dope will need regulated even when legal. Regulations mean rules, and rules will be broken; people will still go to jail for weed even if it is legal. I support legalization because I support freedom; I am not however, naïve enough to believe legalizing drugs is going to solve any societal problems.
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby assateague » Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:36 pm

Better go tell that to Al Capone and the alcohol industry.
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby SpinnerMan » Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:12 pm

boney fingers wrote:owever none of this really pertains to my point that legalization wont solve the drug problem any more than ending prohibition ended the alcohol problem.
I know, I nearly got killed the other day when a budweiser and a miller truck pulled into the same convenience store at the same time and started shooting at each other.

It WILL solve the violence problem just like it solved the violence problem created by prohibition. :yes:

It also has the potential to greatly reduce the accessibility of hard drugs to minors. Not a lot of liquor establishments are tolerant of minors buying booze from them, but I've never heard of a crack dealer carding anyone. :huh:
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby boney fingers » Wed Aug 21, 2013 7:35 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:
boney fingers wrote:owever none of this really pertains to my point that legalization wont solve the drug problem any more than ending prohibition ended the alcohol problem.
I know, I nearly got killed the other day when a budweiser and a miller truck pulled into the same convenience store at the same time and started shooting at each other.

It WILL solve the violence problem just like it solved the violence problem created by prohibition. :yes:

It also has the potential to greatly reduce the accessibility of hard drugs to minors. Not a lot of liquor establishments are tolerant of minors buying booze from them, but I've never heard of a crack dealer carding anyone. :huh:


But it didn't end the mob violence, the mob just carried its violence elsewhere. Violent criminals will still be violent criminals. My whole point is that legalization will have little or no effect on the overall cost to society. Yes it may reduce drug gang violence, but those individuals will not repent of their violent ways, they will simple redirect it somewhere else. I wish it were that easy, but in my opinion it is not.
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:42 am

boney fingers wrote:But it didn't end the mob violence, the mob just carried its violence elsewhere. Violent criminals will still be violent criminals.
As long as there are socially acceptable vices that are illegal, that is somewhat true. However, it is largely tied to the amount of money to be made by providing those vices. The mob is not violent for violence's sake. It's just business.

However, one of my key points earlier is that you must do it in a way that wipes out the black market. You can't do the half-assed approach like we see where you have not crushed the black market for drugs and part of doing that is ALL drugs.

What were the other vices that they went into?

Gambling - the states have taken that over from the mobs and pay back far less than the crooks did :huh:

Drugs - Wipe this profit center out and what do you have left that will be a socially acceptable vice?

I just do not see where the high profit with low risk because nobody is going to rat them out comes from? Would you call the cops if you knew someone had illegal drugs? Would you call the cops if you knew someone was illegally gambling? Bet you wouldn't :yes: Would you call the cops if you knew someone was committing armed robber? I sure as hell hope so. What will society turn a blind eye to that the out of work illegal drug dealers will turn to for their criminal activity? Some places, sure they will ignore armed robbery, but not nearly universally like alcohol, gambling, and drugs. We legalized 2 out of the 3. It's time for the final one because society is simply never going to stop turning a blind eye to it.

boney fingers wrote:Yes it may reduce drug gang violence, but those individuals will not repent of their violent ways, they will simple redirect it somewhere else.
And that is why we don't cut law enforcement or jail expenditures one bit. The solution is attrition and that happens because they are sitting in jail and without the massive profits that come from drugs, what is the appeal to the next generation. Low income and high incarceration rates.
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby Glimmerjim » Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:59 am

SpinnerMan wrote:
boney fingers wrote:But it didn't end the mob violence, the mob just carried its violence elsewhere. Violent criminals will still be violent criminals.

SpinnerMan wrote: As long as there are socially acceptable vices that are illegal, that is somewhat true. However, it is largely tied to the amount of money to be made by providing those vices. The mob is not violent for violence's sake. It's just business.

However, one of my key points earlier is that you must do it in a way that wipes out the black market. You can't do the half-assed approach like we see where you have not crushed the black market for drugs and part of doing that is ALL drugs.


Honestly I am not sure that I understand your position here, Spinner. Simply put, in your estimation, would society be better if ALL drugs were available to all readily and inexpensively?
And in answer to your later question, if I was aware of a neighbor that was selling crank out of his house, sorry, but I don't think I would hesitate to rat him out. I've seen too much bad sh*t happen around friends that got involved in crank. It wasn't just the illegal activities needed for a non-functional human to purchase an expensive product on a regular basis, it was how it burnt their soul. Even heroin addicts can be productive people, but those heavily involved in any form of amphetamine or stimulant are, in my opinion, just setting suns. And there are many other drugs with a propensity to simply nullify life. I understand what you mean in that removing the black market from the distribution of all drugs would render the black market profitability impotent in many ways, but we would face a virtual holocaust of victims that would make the Black Plague look like "Legionnaires Disease."
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:57 am

Glimmerjim wrote:Simply put, in your estimation, would society be better if ALL drugs were available to all readily and inexpensively?
Yes.

All drugs are currently available pretty close to readily and that is true whether you are 16 or 26.

All drugs are also currently pretty cheap.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/37319358/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/cheap-ultra-pure-heroin-kills-instantly/#.UhYWOhukobg
Mexican drug smugglers are increasingly peddling a form of ultra-potent heroin that sells for as little as $10 a bag and is so pure it can kill unsuspecting users instantly, sometimes before they even remove the syringe from their veins.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/04/chicago-heroin_n_1847481.html
The study reaffirmed a tragic benchmark for Chicago: it remains the city with the most rampant heroin overdose problem, as evidenced by heroin-related ER admissions. In 2010, Chicago metropolitan hospitals recorded 24,360 admissions where heroin use was mentioned as a contributing factor. The second-place city, New York, recorded 12,226 heroin mentions in a five-borough analysis during the same period.


Glimmerjim wrote:And in answer to your later question, if I was aware of a neighbor that was selling crank out of his house, sorry, but I don't think I would hesitate to rat him out.
Good for you, but do you think that is the norm? If not, all the laws in the world aren't going to help control it. Regardless of the crime, if the public turns a blind eye for whatever reason, crime will be rampant as we see in practice in all the most crime ridden cities.

Glimmerjim wrote:I've seen too much bad sh*t happen around friends that got involved in crank. It wasn't just the illegal activities needed for a non-functional human to purchase an expensive product on a regular basis, it was how it burnt their soul.
In the ideal world, there would be zero tolerance for it and the drug war would have been won. It was lost and lost badly. I have two goals and they are minimize use by minors because most (not all) people with major problems as an adult started as a minor (this is also why horrible education outcomes drive me nuts, it is a key part of a better society and a better life including less likelihood of ruining your life through stupidity) and to crush the black market an the violence and crime associated with it (all crime in reality, there is no excuse for all the human suffering we see as a result of crime in 21st century America). After that, you are on your own and responsible for your actions. If you need help, you have to ask and it has to be offered freely and not demanded in a court of law because others are forced to "help" you.

Glimmerjim wrote:I understand what you mean in that removing the black market from the distribution of all drugs would render the black market profitability impotent in many ways, but we would face a virtual holocaust of victims that would make the Black Plague look like "Legionnaires Disease."
I just don't see how it gets any worse than it is. It's available to everyone including minors and it is relatively cheap and more expensive just urges crime and not reduced consumption like a normal consumer good.
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby gangrig25 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:30 pm

Pot is not illegal. Getting caught with pot is.
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:00 pm

gangrig25 wrote:Pot is not illegal. Getting caught with pot is.

So shooting over my limit is not illegal, only getting caught with them. Good to know. :rolleyes:
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Re: Just legalize it already......

Postby dudejcb » Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:16 pm

...
SpinnerMan wrote:
dudejcb wrote:save a ton of money on interdiction, police, court and prison.
Don't agree at all. Spend the exact same resources focused on the remaining criminal activity. Don't cut the budget for policing or jails one bit...

You really are a wasteful big government, police state advocate aren't you. And you agree with suppressing the vote due to some problem no one can prove even exists.

As a guy who claims to love freedom, love America, love small government, is seems a re-examination of your positions on some issues is warranted IMO. Go ahead; give yourself some tough self-love. Epiphanies are free!
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