I remember the "I Have a Dream" speech

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Re: I remember the "I Have a Dream" speech

Postby WTN10 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:01 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:
WTN10 wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:Let me make this a little easier for you to relate to.........Where did conservatives stand on the issue of women's suffrage?


The same place the Democrats stood.

I can do it all day long, because it's exactly what you're doing.

Not without resorting to party affiliation, thereby ducking the issue, you can't.


Again, it's not about party affiliation. You're comparing a group with one label to a contemporary group that uses the same label and I've pointed out that's unfair. To do so, I've compared a contemporary group with one label (Democrats) to an older group that used the same label (Democrats) to illustrate that the comparison is unfair and irrational. In response, you've stated that my illustration about unfair comparisons between groups that share common labels but dissimilar values is inapplicable because it uses a type of label (party affiliation) that you didn't use.

The class of label I'm using is irrelevant. You're focusing on it though because it's all you have. You know your comparison is garbage and you know you're embarrassing yourself. Stop doubling down on this stupidity and debasing yourself.
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Re: I remember the "I Have a Dream" speech

Postby SpinnerMan » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:09 pm

I may not agree with everything Taranto says, but he often makes some very good points and normally is very entertaining.

Why the Left Needs Racism It serves a political purpose.

Why the Left Needs Racism--II It fulfills a psychological need.

Why the Left Needs Racism--III It helps sustain an illusion of governmental efficacy.

The left just seems stuck in their own stereotypes for some reason.
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Re: I remember the "I Have a Dream" speech

Postby SpinnerMan » Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:15 pm

Thanks for all the entertainment BDD2.

http://www.lifehacker.com.au/2010/11/before-you-think-outside-the-box-think-inside-of-it/
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We’ve gotten so accustomed to thinking that ideas need to come about in new and exciting ways that we often neglect the utility of established paradigms. When crafting your ideas, first think inside the box before you look outside.

Christopher Peterson over at Psychology Today explains how creative thinking takes more than just new ideas:

Most who think seriously about creativity agree that it entails not only novelty (that outside the box stuff) but also utility, and in order to be useful, it has to go above-and-beyond what is already known (that inside the box stuff).
This is not a new idea, but that’s kind of the point. It’s about embracing what’s been done before, because it is practice that gives us the capacity to build on the old ideas to make the new:

Psychologists who study prodigious accomplishments, in science, music, or art, speak about the 10,000-hour rule, meaning that in order to do something notable in some field, one must devote 10,000+ hours to mastering the discipline in question. Practice, practice, and practice, weedhopper, and appreciate that much of this practice needs to be done inside the box.

Peterson wraps it all up pretty nicely: “If you never venture outside the box, you will probably not be creative. But if you never get inside the box, you will certainly be stupid.”


BDD2 while condemning the what I think can fairly be called in the box thinking of conservatives and pretty much asserting that to be a conservative you must be an in the box thinker and then calls me stupid for simply asking an out of the box hypothetical question which I even said the answer to it was irrelevant :lol3:
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Re: I remember the "I Have a Dream" speech

Postby dudejcb » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:05 pm

I was 7 years old in 1963 and my concerns then revolved around catching night crawlers and fishing. Back then we lived in Rhinelander and the Pelican River bordered our backyard ... but that's another daydream.

this is an intersting article about it though ..."The Misremebering of 'I have a Dream' "
http://www.thenation.com/article/175764/misremembering-i-have-dream#axzz2dIpqVUai
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Re: I remember the "I Have a Dream" speech

Postby blackduckdog2 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:56 pm

WTN10 wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
WTN10 wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:Let me make this a little easier for you to relate to.........Where did conservatives stand on the issue of women's suffrage?


The same place the Democrats stood.

I can do it all day long, because it's exactly what you're doing.

Not without resorting to party affiliation, thereby ducking the issue, you can't.


Again, it's not about party affiliation. You're comparing a group with one label to a contemporary group that uses the same label and I've pointed out that's unfair. To do so, I've compared a contemporary group with one label (Democrats) to an older group that used the same label (Democrats) to illustrate that the comparison is unfair and irrational. In response, you've stated that my illustration about unfair comparisons between groups that share common labels but dissimilar values is inapplicable because it uses a type of label (party affiliation) that you didn't use.

The class of label I'm using is irrelevant. You're focusing on it though because it's all you have. You know your comparison is garbage and you know you're embarrassing yourself. Stop doubling down on this stupidity and debasing yourself.

Just for the record then, there is no affiliation or continuity between the conservatives of fifty years ago and those of today? When did the great right wing schism take place, anyhow? I contend that in another fifty years, the much refined (and reduced, to be sure) hate and racism of this current crop of conservatives will be looked back upon in much the same manner as we may look back on the hatred King faced then. But twas ever thus, conservatives resist change (there actually IS a reason they're called that, you know. And I'd never argue such heel dragging doesn't have its place in a culture. Frankly I'm surprised that no one wants to stick up for the trait)
Your argument is unsound, counselor, chiefly (and ironically) on the grounds of false equivalency, the very thing with which you seek to deflect my accusation. I can show you where the switch happened in the Democratic Party (though not so well, I suspect, as you could show me) Please show me the line of demarcation beyond which I may no longer compare conservatism of the past with its contemporary counterpart, and perhaps we can continue
Last edited by blackduckdog2 on Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I remember the "I Have a Dream" speech

Postby blackduckdog2 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:58 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:BDD2 while condemning the what I think can fairly be called in the box thinking of conservatives and pretty much asserting that to be a conservative you must be an in the box thinker and then calls me stupid for simply asking an out of the box hypothetical question which I even said the answer to it was irrelevant :lol3:

That be some WORLD CLASS spinning right there, folks! :hammer: :hammer:
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Re: I remember the "I Have a Dream" speech

Postby blackduckdog2 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:27 pm

Btw, Spinner, I never called you stupid. I never WOULD call you stupid. That would be stupid and I am not stupid.
But, I CAN be stupid on occasion (not this time, though), as can we all. Chill
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Re: I remember the "I Have a Dream" speech

Postby wanapasaki » Wed Aug 28, 2013 5:55 pm

Googling the 'transformation of 'conservatist post 1960' Give me a minute... :lol3:
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Re: I remember the "I Have a Dream" speech

Postby vincentpa » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:43 pm

It's a shame they invited Barry to talk at the MLK rally today. Never has such a symbol of the success of all the effort, persistence and suffering of a great and righteous movement seemed so small. His words were hollow and his presence was minuscule. Nobody was listening. There was a collective tuning out by the second sentence if not before he ever uttered a word. He's a victim of himself.
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Re: I remember the "I Have a Dream" speech

Postby vincentpa » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:46 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:
WTN10 wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
WTN10 wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:Let me make this a little easier for you to relate to.........Where did conservatives stand on the issue of women's suffrage?


The same place the Democrats stood.

I can do it all day long, because it's exactly what you're doing.

Not without resorting to party affiliation, thereby ducking the issue, you can't.


Again, it's not about party affiliation. You're comparing a group with one label to a contemporary group that uses the same label and I've pointed out that's unfair. To do so, I've compared a contemporary group with one label (Democrats) to an older group that used the same label (Democrats) to illustrate that the comparison is unfair and irrational. In response, you've stated that my illustration about unfair comparisons between groups that share common labels but dissimilar values is inapplicable because it uses a type of label (party affiliation) that you didn't use.

The class of label I'm using is irrelevant. You're focusing on it though because it's all you have. You know your comparison is garbage and you know you're embarrassing yourself. Stop doubling down on this stupidity and debasing yourself.

Just for the record then, there is no affiliation or continuity between the conservatives of fifty years ago and those of today? When did the great right wing schism take place, anyhow? I contend that in another fifty years, the much refined (and reduced, to be sure) hate and racism of this current crop of conservatives will be looked back upon in much the same manner as we may look back on the hatred King faced then. But twas ever thus, conservatives resist change (there actually IS a reason they're called that, you know. And I'd never argue such heel dragging doesn't have its place in a culture. Frankly I'm surprised that no one wants to stick up for the trait)
Your argument is unsound, counselor, chiefly (and ironically) on the grounds of false equivalency, the very thing with which you seek to deflect my accusation. I can show you where the switch happened in the Democratic Party (though not so well, I suspect, as you could show me) Please show me the line of demarcation beyond which I may no longer compare conservatism of the past with its contemporary counterpart, and perhaps we can continue


As it relates to racism? Probably about the same time Senator Robert Byrd left the KKK.
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Re: I remember the

Postby wanapasaki » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:54 pm

vincentpa wrote:It's a shame they invited Barry to talk at the MLK rally today. Never has such a symbol of the success of all the effort, persistence and suffering of a great and righteous movement seemed so small. His words were hollow and his presence was minuscule. Nobody was listening. There was a collective tuning out by the second sentence if not before he ever uttered a word. He's a victim of himself.


There was a rally today?! Why didn't I get the memo? :lol3:
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Re: I remember the

Postby assateague » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:58 pm

vincentpa wrote:It's a shame they invited Barry to talk at the MLK rally today. Never has such a symbol of the success of all the effort, persistence and suffering of a great and righteous movement seemed so small. His words were hollow and his presence was minuscule. Nobody was listening. There was a collective tuning out by the second sentence if not before he ever uttered a word. He's a victim of himself.




Noticeably absent from the speaker line-up at the Let Freedom Ring event commemorating the 50th anniversary of the March on Washington today: the nation’s only black Senator, Tim Scott.

Scott, a Republican Representative appointed by S.C. Governor Nikki Haley earlier this year to fill former Sen. Jim DeMint’s seat in the U.S. Senate after he retired, was not invited to participate in the historic event, a spokesperson for the Senator confirmed to Red Alert Politics in an email.

African-American leaders who did receive an invitation to speak at included Rep. John Lewis (D-Ga.) – who participated in the original March – Martin Luther King III, MSNBC host Al Sharpton and movie stars Jamie Foxx, Oprah Winfrey and Forest Whitaker.
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Re: I remember the "I Have a Dream" speech

Postby vincentpa » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:12 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:
assateague wrote:The short answer is "because they didn't like black people".

I'm surprised at how little conservatives around here want to embrace the defining characteristic of their philosophy. To wit, skepticism, or outright rejection, of change. It's good and bad, but not if you only can see the one side of it. Then it's just bad


That's make it racism? Thats your logic? conservatives by philosophy are resistant to change ao they must be racist? My friend, stop swimming in that icy cold water. It's affecting your brain. I can tell you with absolute certainty coming from a blue collar union city and growing up in that staunch democrat stronghold in a working class hero's neighborhood; the most racist people I ever met were good ole blue collar card carrying Democrats. So please spare me your righteous liberal nonsense. It holds up well in your liberal circles but not so well when you have to face those who've been around the block with another opinion.
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Re: I remember the "I Have a Dream" speech

Postby vincentpa » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:14 pm

assateague wrote:
vincentpa wrote:It's a shame they invited Barry to talk at the MLK rally today. Never has such a symbol of the success of all the effort, persistence and suffering of a great and righteous movement seemed so small. His words were hollow and his presence was minuscule. Nobody was listening. There was a collective tuning out by the second sentence if not before he ever uttered a word. He's a victim of himself.




Noticeably absent from the speaker line-up at the Let Freedom Ring event commemorating the 50th anniversary of the March on Washington today: the nation’s only black Senator, Tim Scott.

Scott, a Republican Representative appointed by S.C. Governor Nikki Haley earlier this year to fill former Sen. Jim DeMint’s seat in the U.S. Senate after he retired, was not invited to participate in the historic event, a spokesperson for the Senator confirmed to Red Alert Politics in an email.

African-American leaders who did receive an invitation to speak at included Rep. John Lewis (D-Ga.) – who participated in the original March – Martin Luther King III, MSNBC host Al Sharpton and movie stars Jamie Foxx, Oprah Winfrey and Forest Whitaker.


I noticed not one Republican or Conservative was there. I didn't even see Colin Powell. I certainly didn't se Clarence Thomas. I did see the "First black president", Bill Clinton.
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Re: I remember the "I Have a Dream" speech

Postby Indaswamp » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:05 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:Probably not a lot of you guys are old enough. But I think it's worth pointing out that conservatives HATED this man, and everything he stood for. Sure, they've moderated their tone since, but I grew up among rock-ribbed New England Republicans (I won't even get into Southern conservatives, whether they were Republican or Democrats, and please feel free to point out the Southern Republicans who supported the Reverend) who despised Martin Luther King, to the point of applauding his killer. That's a legacy American consevatism has to deal with, no matter how much they've tried to spin it since

Conservative = New England Republicans :lol3: :lol3: :lol3: :lol3: :lol3:

Your other flaw is that you had to like MLK personally to agree with what he said. This is in large part why we part ways so much. Ideas are ideas and their truthfulness is independent of who says them. A lovable person can be a moron and a prick can put forth brilliant ideas.

What little I have read about MLK is that there may have been good reason to not like him as a person. He was not a saint that is for sure. However, it is unlikely that a saint would have been successful in the world as it existed at that time. My guess is your "conservatives" were pro-establishment and all pro-establishment whether R or D was going to hate him for his open attack on the establishment, regardless of whether or not it was a just attack.

Just like you reject any affiliation with the party of slavery and segregation because even though the name did not change and the players did not change with few exceptions (Clinton's political lineage doesn't link to anti-segregationist nor Robert KKK Byrd, etc.), there is an obvious truth that Democrats of today advocate for different policies although they do seem to have the same practical impact of keeping minorities down :huh: A conservative as you refer to New England Republicans are not the same as conservatives today. Let's focus on the veracity of the ideas, but yes many of the conservative ideas were liberal ideas at that time, why would anybody reject a good idea regardless of who first advocated it nor your initial reaction to it? Only someone obsessed with such group identity and group think or never being wrong gets stuck like that.

The left has left you BDD2. It's not about ideas and finding what works in practice. It is about amassing power. Sure just like conservatives, politicians will say whatever it takes to amass power and there are many people that desire their team winning far more than they worry about the practical impact of their policies. A true conservative and a true liberal will come to the same conclusion about the truth, but simply differ in their personal value judgments. Few of them exist. It is the antithesis of human nature. We all want the home team, OUR team, to win and will ignore often blatant wrongdoing on their part if it helps them win.

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Re: I remember the

Postby cartervj » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:37 pm

vincentpa wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
assateague wrote:The short answer is "because they didn't like black people".

I'm surprised at how little conservatives around here want to embrace the defining characteristic of their philosophy. To wit, skepticism, or outright rejection, of change. It's good and bad, but not if you only can see the one side of it. Then it's just bad


That's make it racism? Thats your logic? conservatives by philosophy are resistant to change ao they must be racist? My friend, stop swimming in that icy cold water. It's affecting your brain. I can tell you with absolute certainty coming from a blue collar union city and growing up in that staunch democrat stronghold in a working class hero's neighborhood; the most racist people I ever met were good ole blue collar card carrying Democrats. So please spare me your righteous liberal nonsense. It holds up well in your liberal circles but not so well when you have to face those who've been around the block with another opinion.


A relevant statement here in the South too!

My Dad coached the first integrated football HS FB team here in the area. He's very much a conservative and the only racist word I've ever heard him say was the day after Obama was elected. A black man yanked a grocery cart out of his hands as he pulled it from the stacked carts. The black man made a statement about how his man won. Oh, and he was wearing a shirt that said, "My Prez is Black!!!" several of those T-Shirts were seen around town that day and the weeks following.


Tell me who is more racist. :lol3: All the older Dems I know call Obama the N word. :huh: how can this be :lol3:
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Re: I remember the "I Have a Dream" speech

Postby cartervj » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:54 pm

Warning graph language, the ending is the best

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Re: I remember the "I Have a Dream" speech

Postby dave79 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:30 pm

don't lurk on the ci forum much but here's my 2 cents. bdd2 you say you remember mlk's speech but you fail to mention why you remember it. did it inspire you? did it change your life. no you only use it as part of your agenda.
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Re: I remember the "I Have a Dream" speech

Postby wanapasaki » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:56 pm

dave79 wrote:don't lurk on the ci forum much but here's my 2 cents. bdd2 you say you remember mlk's speech but you fail to mention why you remember it. did it inspire you? did it change your life. no you only use it as part of your agenda.


Hey Dave, why did you ask a question if your were going to answer it for him? :lol3:
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Re: I remember the "I Have a Dream" speech

Postby WTN10 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:24 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:Your argument is unsound, counselor, chiefly (and ironically) on the grounds of false equivalency, the very thing with which you seek to deflect my accusation. I can show you where the switch happened in the Democratic Party (though not so well, I suspect, as you could show me) Please show me the line of demarcation beyond which I may no longer compare conservatism of the past with its contemporary counterpart, and perhaps we can continue


You've failed to:

1. Show how my comparison is unsound (it's not, I've conjured more complicated arguments while on the treadmill);
2. Show that there is a continuity between the groups you seek to compare (you want to shift your burden of proof on to me because you have nothing other than, "Well, everyone knows..." to back your argument.)

The hand print will fade in about a week. Carry on having your ass handed to you by others with more patience for this stupidity.
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Re: I remember the "I Have a Dream" speech

Postby wanapasaki » Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:46 pm

Ouch, looks like BBD2 touched some exposed nerves on here :lol3:
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Re: I remember the "I Have a Dream" speech

Postby blackduckdog2 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:41 am

wanapasaki wrote:Ouch, looks like BBD2 touched some exposed nerves on here :lol3:

Ya think? :lol3:
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Re: I remember the "I Have a Dream" speech

Postby blackduckdog2 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:46 am

WTN10 wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:Your argument is unsound, counselor, chiefly (and ironically) on the grounds of false equivalency, the very thing with which you seek to deflect my accusation. I can show you where the switch happened in the Democratic Party (though not so well, I suspect, as you could show me) Please show me the line of demarcation beyond which I may no longer compare conservatism of the past with its contemporary counterpart, and perhaps we can continue


You've failed to:

1. Show how my comparison is unsound (it's not, I've conjured more complicated arguments while on the treadmill);
2. Show that there is a continuity between the groups you seek to compare (you want to shift your burden of proof on to me because you have nothing other than, "Well, everyone knows..." to back your argument.)

The hand print will fade in about a week. Carry on having your ass handed to you by others with more patience for this stupidity.

If you'd actually laid a glove on me you wouldn't need to be posturing about it. Seriously, man......It's your position that I have to prove there is NOT no connection between the conservatives of Dr. King's day, and conservatives now? :no: :no: Or that I should just take your word for it that all the conservatives I knew who hated him were not REAL conservatives, because REAL conservatives are kind of just like Jesus, only with a buzz cut, right?
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Re: I remember the

Postby blackduckdog2 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:04 am

vincentpa wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
assateague wrote:The short answer is "because they didn't like black people".

I'm surprised at how little conservatives around here want to embrace the defining characteristic of their philosophy. To wit, skepticism, or outright rejection, of change. It's good and bad, but not if you only can see the one side of it. Then it's just bad


That's make it racism? Thats your logic? conservatives by philosophy are resistant to change ao they must be racist? My friend, stop swimming in that icy cold water. It's affecting your brain. I can tell you with absolute certainty coming from a blue collar union city and growing up in that staunch democrat stronghold in a working class hero's neighborhood; the most racist people I ever met were good ole blue collar card carrying Democrats. So please spare me your righteous liberal nonsense. It holds up well in your liberal circles but not so well when you have to face those who've been around the block with another opinion.

Show me where I said that conservatives' resistance to change makes them racist, please. You know you're doing something awfully right when the assembled hordes of CIF right wingers are just jumping through hoops to twist your words :clapping:
And you'll have to excuse me if I'm not too impressed with your working class neighborhood story. I grew up in Providence; hung out in East Providence even. And after my father moved us to the suburbs I spent all my time sneaking in to Worcester (one mean, gritty town, lemme tellya) during the late sixties. You're really gonna lecture me on race hate in the big city? I got more street cred on that block than you could conjure if you lived to be twice my age. I lived through the Boston bussing riots in the seventies when the city was one huge tinderbox waiting to go up. We had Panthers in our apartment building, a carved up front/rear triple decker. (real BP, too, not your silly-ass contemporary BP-Lite. These guys were like Stokes on steroids) IRA in the bars at night, not that they ever said so but you knew, because Boston was a major gun running, money clearing site for them.
If you'd mistaken me back then (like you are now) for some Brookline yuppie who never learned how to throw a punch, it's a mistake you'd have only made once, VP
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Re: I remember the "I Have a Dream" speech

Postby TomKat » Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:21 am

blackduckdog2 wrote:

Just for the record then, there is no affiliation or continuity between the conservatives of fifty years ago and those of today? OH, THIS is what you were getting at in your original post! I knew the hidden agenda would surface When did the great right wing schism take place, anyhow? I contend that in another fifty years, the much refined (and reduced, to be sure) hate and racism of this current crop of conservatives will be looked back upon in much the same manner as we may look back on the hatred King faced then.Thats because liberals are just better people But twas ever thus, conservatives resist change (there actually IS a reason they're called that, you know. And I'd never argue such heel dragging doesn't have its place in a culture. Frankly I'm surprised that no one wants to stick up for the trait)Obama gave us hope and change. Hooray!
Your argument is unsound, counselor,Dude, he is a professional,and you will never out lawyer WTN. chiefly (and ironically) on the grounds of false equivalency, the very thing with which you seek to deflect my accusation. I can show you where the switch happened in the Democratic PartyYeah? When was that? (though not so well, I suspect, as you could show me) Please show me the line of demarcation beyond which I may no longer compare conservatism of the past with its contemporary counterpart,I told you, its a FACT that liberals are just better people. Doesnt that make you feel better? and perhaps we can continue
Perhaps not. You have a history of painting yourself into a corner and then getting butt hurt over it
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TomKat
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