Civil War

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Civil War

Postby black_duck » Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:00 pm

What are the chances that in the near future that another civil war will brake out in America. America is so divided right now between democrats and republicans that I see it almost impossible to avoid. Kinda sad but thats the way I see it.
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Re: Civil War

Postby beretta24 » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:13 pm

Zero...no substantial population of people willing to actually die for what they believe in.
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Re: Civil War

Postby clampdaddy » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:30 pm

I'd much rather see everyone file exempt status and refuse to pay their taxes.
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Re: Civil War

Postby dgram36 » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:32 pm

beretta24 wrote:Zero...no substantial population of people willing to actually die for what they believe in.

God damn son, perfect post...
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Re: Civil War

Postby shoveler_shooter » Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:25 pm

I can see a valid argument for both sides...
My theory is something big/major is gonna happen within the next 20 years, whether it be economic or political.
Political, as in restrictions/violations of our rights gone too far (and not just the 2nd Amendment), or the form of government. I think either of those could actually cause a war (or something related to that), but the chances are very low compared to something major related to the economy. If an economic "situation" occurs, then we'd have the riots and looting just like Katrina. Which again, IMO is more likely to happen.
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Re: Civil War

Postby ctdeathfrombelow » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:27 pm

black_duck wrote:What are the chances that in the near future that another civil war will brake out in America. America is so divided right now between democrats and republicans that I see it almost impossible to avoid. Kinda sad but thats the way I see it.

You know the difference between a "civil war" and a "revolution"?
In a civil war, the government wins.
In a revolution, the government is overturned.

I'd rather see a revolution!
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Re: Civil War

Postby slowshooter » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:52 am

Seriously. If people are too lazy to educate themselves and go vote. They are too lazy to get off the couch.
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Re: Civil War

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:04 am

slowshooter wrote:Seriously. If people are too lazy to educate themselves and go vote. They are too lazy to get off the couch.

I agree. If they would have educated themselves before they voted, we'd have never heard of Barack Obama unless you happened to have driven by one of his billboards: hurt in an accident? Need cash? Call Barack Obama I'll fight for you.
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Re: Civil War

Postby vincentpa » Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:24 am

The North would beat the South again. It would be a foregone conclusion.
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Re: Civil War

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:40 am

beretta24 wrote:Zero...no substantial population of people willing to actually die for what they believe in.

:clapping:
No one wants to make any concessions anymore, it's ALL about someone else doing it for 'em.

vincentpa wrote:The North would beat the South again. It would be a foregone conclusion.

:lol3:
Dang you Vincent! You know THAT ain't true-
Now that most industry has failed up North and moved down here below the Mason Dixon line, we've gotcha' by the go-nads this time! :lol3: :hi:
(Google "Detroit" :wink: )
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Re: Civil War

Postby dgram36 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:58 am

vincentpa wrote:The North would beat the South again. It would be a foregone conclusion.


Yeah, I'm from the north and I'm not sure that's true. South has us outgunned with all these anti gun laws up here.
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Re: Civil War

Postby Andy W » Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:59 am

slowshooter wrote:Seriously. If people are too lazy to educate themselves and go vote. They are too lazy to get off the couch.

Good point Slow.
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Re: Civil War

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:33 am

I don't think it's the north-south divide. It's city/inner suburbs versus outer suburbs/small town/rural. Atlanta would be fighting for the "north" this go around. Of course, they would probably burn themselves down in protest anyways, so that wouldn't be necessary again.

I think there will be growing calls to be politically walled of from the cities. I'd like to see a whole bunch of states be split. It hasn't happened since the Civil War. It's long over do. California should probably split into a half dozen states. Texas into several. Illinois, definitely two states. The Chicago politicians don't want to go to Springfield. Make Chicago the capital of Chicagoland and set the rest of Illinois politically free. They can draw the border between me and downtown Joliet. :yes:

The problem is they are like locusts. They destroy the city with their bad ideas, move out the inner suburbs, work to impose the same bad ideas, wonder why things are going to hell, and shrug it off and move outward.

Image

I think we figured out what Obama was doing in those missing years at college.

Image
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Re: Civil War

Postby ScaupHunter » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:37 am

beretta24 wrote:Zero...no substantial population of people willing to actually die for what they believe in.


Marines, Soldiers, Sailors, and Airmen risk it all every day. Don't believe it? There are a lot of Americans that are willing to lay their lives down for America and what it stands for.

My thought is that any civil war will trigger when the money runs out and all the deadbeats no longer get their freebies. They will start to try and take what they want from those who worked for it. The government won't do anything about them and their actions. A lot of people will decided enough is enough and deal with the problem children in a very permanent manner.
Last edited by ScaupHunter on Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Civil War

Postby beretta24 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:47 am

ScaupHunter wrote:
beretta24 wrote:Zero...no substantial population of people willing to actually die for what they believe in.


Marines, Soldiers, Sailors, and Airmen risk it all every day. Don't believe it? There are a lot of Americans that are willing to lay their lives down for America and what it stands for.

My thought is that any civil war will trigger when the money runs out and all the deadbeats no longer get their freebies. They will start to try and take what they want from those who worked for it. The government won't do anything about them and their action, and a lot of people will decided enough is enough and deal with the problem children in a very permanent manner.

And that population of people you mentioned with conviction is relatively small....most people are too comfortable to be bothered with the current issues the OP raised. If the financial issues result in catastrophic impacts on our standard of living, I agree, things could be vastly different.
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Re: Civil War

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:16 am

beretta24 wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:
beretta24 wrote:Zero...no substantial population of people willing to actually die for what they believe in.


Marines, Soldiers, Sailors, and Airmen risk it all every day. Don't believe it? There are a lot of Americans that are willing to lay their lives down for America and what it stands for.

My thought is that any civil war will trigger when the money runs out and all the deadbeats no longer get their freebies. They will start to try and take what they want from those who worked for it. The government won't do anything about them and their action, and a lot of people will decided enough is enough and deal with the problem children in a very permanent manner.

And that population of people you mentioned with conviction is relatively small....most people are too comfortable to be bothered with the current issues the OP raised. If the financial issues result in catastrophic impacts on our standard of living, I agree, things could be vastly different.

But then doesn't that argue that it will only take a small fraction willing to use force to change things will the rest sit frozen unwilling to actually die for what they believe?

History does not suggest that a civil war would go well for the freedom lovers under the conditions we are in with the excessive centralized government and excessive redistribution system we have. As it fails, the demand for people even more radical than Obama promising to give them even more for doing nothing at all will grow. The best will leave and the worst will stay. Detroit is the dead canary. I don't see the pattern changing. It will just take a long time for the deadly poison to spread from the concentrated neighborhoods of the big cities to the broad diverse outer suburbs, small towns, and rural communities. The upside is that people like Obama look their nose so far down at the people in these communities, they stay close to the city. The California hippy culture is probably the exception, but I'm over a thousand miles away so I don't understand how that progresses to nearby states, but it does seem to spread.

Those that seek centralized control will be in command of the military. They will put commanders in charge that believe as they do. They will seek to change the culture to their culture incrementally. They will lower the standards to let the like minded in. The military was not a problem for many despots that came as a result of the path we are on. A couple decades, and we have had near 100% turnover of the military. The statists never have trouble finding militants willing to do horrible things to their fellow citizens.

I think SH's flaw is that the government will do something. It will actively help the freeloaders. Why would that stop? Look at the massive expansion of food stamps over the relatively short time period.
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Re: Civil War

Postby ScaupHunter » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:33 am

3% of americans fought in the Revolutionary War and won. 90 million armed citizens in the US. what 1 million military personnel right now? How many of those are kids of people who would fight against the government? 3% of 90 million is 2.7 million armed citizens saying no and fighting. The government can't win against those numbers. Now mind I have limited the numbers severely here. Limited to the 3% of estimated gun owner numbers only. Using the entire population would run the numbers up to 8.1 million people fighting.

Now lets look at how such a war would be fought. Low level insurgency with 2.7 million people involved. Military bases are few and far between. Many of them have been shut down. This concentrates the forces. Scatter those forces across all of America and you have to many small units that are easily destroyed piecemeal. There are millions of war veterans around who know the system and how to work it, etc........ Those veterans know their oath and the priority of who comes first. It is not the government. Goverhnment looses.

Moderate scale civil war with larger more organized units of resistance. Military is more effective and can fight some standard combat operations against massed troops. This one may go either way, but likey the government looses. Mainly due to many military personel refusing to fire on their own family and like minded citizens.

Full scale war. Government wins every time. Able to apply massive firepower and technology against large organized forces of opponents. Able to cut supply and arms shipments. Easy win for the government with huge numbers of dead citizens.

You cannot defeat a poorly armed insurgency unless you are willing to kill every person in the area. Every person you kill creates more fighters in the area you are suppressing. Now take a force with government trained leaders that knows the system and how it works. Take those leaders and put them in control of people who refuse to give up their freedom and you have a formidable force. Add in all the weapons and ammo in the US that is available and you have an incredibly effective force. Now add in external support from America's enemies smuggling in more advanced weapons and other technology and you have a winning forced in the long term. America has always been safe from attack because of its armed citizens. We now have a government that is afraid of the very people it represents. That tells you the problem is with the government and the people working in it. Not with the citizens who just want to be left alone to live their lives as free people.

Why do you think the liberals constantly try to take the guns from law abiding citizens. It is because they are afraid. They know full well that as things stand they cannot impliment their communist manifesto or push their true agenda. If they did the low level war would start and America would toss them out on their ear.
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Re: Civil War

Postby wanapasaki » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:42 am

beretta24 wrote:Zero...no substantial population of people willing to actually die for what they believe in.


Muslims? :lol3:
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Re: Civil War

Postby ScaupHunter » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:20 am

True in so many ways. :lol3:

Most of them are cowards and don't want to die for their beliefs. Just enough of them to cause a lot of problems.
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Re: Civil War

Postby beretta24 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 4:08 pm

Scaup,
There may be enough numbers in the armed forces, but my argument is armed forces or not there's not enough of them willing to sacrifice their lives over what's happening in the US. Until something catastrophic happens HERE, even those with conviction will be inclined to fight for what we still have as opposed for differences in ideals amongst our people.

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Re: Civil War

Postby ScaupHunter » Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:09 pm

I am not arguing that point at all and agree. We are a very lazy and lackadaisical society or we would not be where we are today. We are in the 5th stage of empire and something else is coming. The only question is what will it be and how many will die before things settle down when it comes. History is a mean mistress. She tells a very clear story that constantly repeats. We are about to hit the repeat button, the question is when, and how bad it has to be before we hit it.

Obama is not the problem. He is only a symptom. Over reaching government is just a symptom as well. People are to lazy and stupid to wake up and make sure they are being represented properly. That is the end of the road. Freedom is always expensive and most Americans are no longer willing to pay the price. That has been the death of every great society in history.
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Re: Civil War

Postby Rat Creek » Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:10 pm

Other than my pipe dream of dividing the country in half and allowing one group to live in the United Ghettos of Obama while the other half lives in a free country based upon capitalism, I have wondered if you cannot peacefully exist as two countries within one.

I will readily admit I have worked out none of the details, but why not simply become a part of one form of government or another. Each person gets to choose. The leftist could have forced acceptance of all things Big Gov. Big Gov could tell them what to do, what to eat, what to drive and how to live. Everyone would receive the same “stuff” from the government and everything would be fair and just plain awesome. How do they pay for all of it? Maybe endless Quantitative Easing will be sufficient. That seems to be the go-to for leftists.

The evil freedom lovers would live as they choose, pay for everything they have and pretty much be left alone. If you needed services for popo or fire, you would call the departments that support the evil freedom loving people, not the Obamaland popo. Schools would be separate and obviously not equal. People would succeed or fail based upon their own skills and value.
So which is really the utopia?

But there is the obvious flaw, I guess it would be hard to have enough police to keep the citizens of Obamaland from stealing all your stuff while you were away working, and to keep them from rioting on your front lawn because the social injustice that your hard work is creating.
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Re: Civil War

Postby ScaupHunter » Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:39 pm

Your details need a little more work. :thumbsup:
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Re: Civil War

Postby Andy W » Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:56 am

Rat Creek wrote:I will readily admit I have worked out none of the details

I've worked out two of them; the boundary should be a north/south line. That way nobody gets stuck with too much hot or cold weather. We get to keep the military as the leftists/progressives won't need it.
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Re: Civil War

Postby SpinnerMan » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:28 am

I propose a compromise. The core issue is the so-called War on Poverty. Obama et. al. believe they have a right to take one person's stuff and give it to another solely for the benefit of that person. By any rational definition, that is stealing, even if done "legally" as slavery was done legally. We've lost the war. It's time to propose a cease fire agreement and I believe I have one that would stop destroying society and end the social decoy driven by the perverse incentives created by system we have.

The truce agreement is the following. A constitutional amendment that ends all means tested benefits whether cash or services at all levels of government and requires the federal government to pay every American living in America or Americans and their family working directly for America outside the U.S. (military, diplomats) 1/4th of the family of 4 poverty rate and that payment is treated as taxable earned income.

This would 100% end statistical poverty. Victory on the War on Poverty could be declared.

It removes all the perverse incentives that come with revocation of benefits as you try to improve your quality of life by working longer and harder.

It bans all the insanity that gets into every new law that is suppose to "help" people.

There would be all kinds of big and little benefits with no downside from WHERE WE ARE TODAY. For example, it gets rid of all the beggars that are lying about being willing to work for food because you know they are not poor, which they often are not anyways.

And when the liberals completely reject it, it proves that they have no desire to end poverty, but only to extend poverty and profit politically from it.
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