10 things only idiots will ignore

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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby assateague » Thu Oct 24, 2013 8:41 am

Of course there was. It's a big, fat, well-documented, beaten into everyone's head by the very media who hates them "I told you so" from the Tea Party. And one they can run with for a while. "We tried to save you. But the dems wouldn't stand for it, and blamed us. And then they tried to do the very thing we recommended. Because they know that we were correct, and they were on the wrong side of history" Quite simple, actually.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby vincentpa » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:16 am

assateague wrote:Of course there was. It's a big, fat, well-documented, beaten into everyone's head by the very media who hates them "I told you so" from the Tea Party. And one they can run with for a while. "We tried to save you. But the dems wouldn't stand for it, and blamed us. And then they tried to do the very thing we recommended. Because they know that we were correct, and they were on the wrong side of history" Quite simple, actually.



Too complicated. People generally make decisions based on emotion. Most only remember the emotion, not the reason behind their feeling. They will soon forget what the actual shutdown was about and only remember the emotion, which was negative toward the Tea Party and Republicans.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:28 am

vincentpa wrote:To make any substantive changes to Obamacare, the Republicans need three things.

1. Control of the Senate.
2. Control of the House of Representatives
3. A Republican President.

First, I said exactly that before, but with a united front and not a relentless attack from your perpetual minority Republicans, they could have gotten a better deal instead of the horrible debacle that happened.

They knew this too as was made crystal clear by giving in on this BEFORE the shutdown. This was off the table before the government shutdown. So you have no point here. None.

vincentpa wrote:Your primary logic is that if Republicans united behind the Tea Party, they could've prevailed.
Not at all. Like so many of your other "facts" that you think you know, you are wrong. Not on Obamacare. Obama would have destroyed the country before he gave an inch to the Tea Party on this. Everybody knew this and it was crystal clear before and after the shutdown. It was however their bargaining chip. It was a platform to talk about how horrible this bill is. To point out the hypocrisy of Obama giving a delay (illegally I believe) to the evil businesses while telling the individuals to pay or or pay your fine, I mean tax.

Your blind hatred of the Tea Pary, just like that of McCain and those like him, have let your emotions get the better of you.

vincentpa wrote:Secondly, you make it seem as if the Republican Establishment and the Tea Party are at odds over the issue of Obamacare. That is patently false.
:lol3: :lol3: :lol3:
The establishment will not fight. Obamacare will never be change substantively. Even with those three criteria, it will take AT LEAST 60 Republicans in the Senate because people like McCain will buckle at the threat of a filibuster, just like they buckled at the threat of a government shutdown, and couldn't give Obama what he wanted quick enough, especially if they could blame the Tea Party. That is not perfect alignment. One is giving lip service, just like they do to smaller government, spending cuts, balanced budgets, and do just the opposite when they don't have threat of conservatives, Tea Party, or some other non-establishment movement forcing them to toe the line.

vincentpa wrote:Thirdly, you state the Republican Establishment isn't interested or do not have the ability to control spending. It was the king of Establishment Mitch McConnell that negotiated the Sequester, the only time in 50 years that spending in our federal government went down two years in a row.
Because of the threat of Tea Party going after them in the primary. McConnel's guy in Kentucky got smacked down by Rand Paul. McConnel himself could easily get beat when he is up for re-election.

The only time spending has gone down is when the Tea Party threat has existed, but you credit the establishment that has existed for a long time. :lol3:
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby vincentpa » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:54 am

SpinnerMan wrote:
Your blind hatred of the Tea Pary, just like that of McCain and those like him, have let your emotions get the better of you.



This is comical. I don't have a blind hatred for the Tea Party. I don't hate them at all. How liberal of you! I disagree with them on something so I must hate them.

The rest of what you wrote is illogical drivel that I have already addressed. I'm not chasing my tail with you.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:06 am

vincentpa wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
Your blind hatred of the Tea Pary, just like that of McCain and those like him, have let your emotions get the better of you.



This is comical. I don't have a blind hatred for the Tea Party. I don't hate them at all. How liberal of you! I disagree with them on something so I must hate them.

The rest of what you wrote is illogical drivel that I have already addressed. I'm not chasing my tail with you.

This is why you make so many untrue statements about what they did and you are blind to it.

You disagree with the strawman in your head. That is quite liberal of you.

But didn't you criticize me for name calling earlier, but you have done it repeatedly. :huh:

That too is quite liberal of you.

Letting your emotions over ride your brain is clearly very liberal off you.

Do you seriously believe Mitch McConnell would have been the fiscal hawk if Rand Paul had not won in Kentucky defeating his candidate? Do you think without the Tea Party in general, that spending would have declined for the first time if the threat of a Tea Party challenge didn't exist? You just want them to go away and pretend like the get no credit and assign total blame when there is clearly blame to be shared by all at a very minimum. You claim a shutdown was disastrous for Republicans even though they gained power in the next election in your attempt to smear them. You are not objective. That is clear. And I think it is more than just because you disagree with them on some issues.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby Indaswamp » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:12 am

vincentpa wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:The mainstream Republicans are all corporate whores, as are the Democrats.

^^^this^^^
bought and paid for.



Yeah, so what?

They don't give a schit about the american people-that's what.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby vincentpa » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:17 am

SpinnerMan wrote:
vincentpa wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
Your blind hatred of the Tea Pary, just like that of McCain and those like him, have let your emotions get the better of you.



This is comical. I don't have a blind hatred for the Tea Party. I don't hate them at all. How liberal of you! I disagree with them on something so I must hate them.

The rest of what you wrote is illogical drivel that I have already addressed. I'm not chasing my tail with you.

This is why you make so many untrue statements about what they did and you are blind to it.

You disagree with the strawman in your head. That is quite liberal of you.

But didn't you criticize me for name calling earlier, but you have done it repeatedly. :huh:

That too is quite liberal of you.

Letting your emotions over ride your brain is clearly very liberal off you.

Do you seriously believe Mitch McConnell would have been the fiscal hawk if Rand Paul had not won in Kentucky defeating his candidate? Do you think without the Tea Party in general, that spending would have declined for the first time if the threat of a Tea Party challenge didn't exist? You just want them to go away and pretend like the get no credit and assign total blame when there is clearly blame to be shared by all at a very minimum. You claim a shutdown was disastrous for Republicans even though they gained power in the next election in your attempt to smear them. You are not objective. That is clear. And I think it is more than just because you disagree with them on some issues.


I don't make any untrue statements. I have also not made one strawman argument. I am completely unemotional, perplexed but dispassionate, incredulous but only disappointed.

Accusing me of exactly what you're guilty of is old hat. Nice try.

As for you, stating something that would've happened as fact is not making a true statement. We have but one reality. The Tea Party screwed this up royally. You can accept reality and work to see that this doesn't happen again or you can play the fool. And please, stop with the hyperbole. Disagreeing with someone is not trying to smear them. Stating this only makes you look like a bigger jackazz than you already appear to be to anyone reading this thread.

I've already addressed all of your point. Your responses have been subpar, to put it kindly. What a bubble you live in!
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby vincentpa » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:18 am

Indaswamp wrote:
vincentpa wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:The mainstream Republicans are all corporate whores, as are the Democrats.

^^^this^^^
bought and paid for.



Yeah, so what?

They don't give a schit about the american people-that's what.


But from their perspective, they do.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby ScaupHunter » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:20 am

Simple solution to the problem. No incumbents ever. Just keep firing them over and over. Politics was never supposed to be a profession. Now to just get the ever increasingly stupid American public to understand it.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:32 am

vincentpa wrote:I don't make any untrue statements.


Untrue statement #1 of many.
The dumbasses like Ted Cruz, Mike Lee and a handful of idiots in the House thought they would make a show by shutting the government down over defunding Barrycare.

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/325331-house-sends-stopgap-back-before-senate-48-hours-to-shutdown
Republican supporters said the ObamaCare delay is necessary to prepare a wary public for sweeping changes that lack the underlying infrastructure to make them work. They framed their postponement proposal as a compromise, relative to the defunding measure they had pushed earlier in the month.

Defunding was off the table BEFORE the shutdown. So your statement is clearly untrue given that defunding was off the table before the shutdown.

A one year delay of the individual mandate consistent with the delay illegally given by Obama of the business mandate was a solid position and looked much more solid with every day.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby Indaswamp » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:36 am

vincentpa wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
vincentpa wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:The mainstream Republicans are all corporate whores, as are the Democrats.

^^^this^^^
bought and paid for.



Yeah, so what?

They don't give a schit about the american people-that's what.


But from their perspective, they do.

BS.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:44 am

vincentpa wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
vincentpa wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:The mainstream Republicans are all corporate whores, as are the Democrats.

^^^this^^^
bought and paid for.



Yeah, so what?

They don't give a schit about the american people-that's what.


But from their perspective, they do.

I used to make that argument as well. However, the death and destruction that we see in Detroit, Chicago, DC, etc. If they truly cared, how are they not outraged? The mass deaths in Russia, China, and so many other places where the central planners have run amok suggest that they don't care about any individual. They can be sacrificed for the greater good. And no matter how high the body count rises the great good the envision in their mind is still far greater. How can that be true if they care about anything but their own desire for power?
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby vincentpa » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:52 am

SpinnerMan wrote:
vincentpa wrote:I don't make any untrue statements.


Untrue statement #1 of many.
The dumbasses like Ted Cruz, Mike Lee and a handful of idiots in the House thought they would make a show by shutting the government down over defunding Barrycare.

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/325331-house-sends-stopgap-back-before-senate-48-hours-to-shutdown
Republican supporters said the ObamaCare delay is necessary to prepare a wary public for sweeping changes that lack the underlying infrastructure to make them work. They framed their postponement proposal as a compromise, relative to the defunding measure they had pushed earlier in the month.

Defunding was off the table BEFORE the shutdown. So your statement is clearly untrue given that defunding was off the table before the shutdown.

A one year delay of the individual mandate consistent with the delay illegally given by Obama of the business mandate was a solid position and looked much more solid with every day.



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

If that's what you're clinging to to make your argument, very sad indeed. I've already gone over that. It was an irrelevant mistake. What a deluded fool you are! Not even the Democrats, with all of their media friends would've been able to reverse the impression the American people had of their position after stating one position for weeks then changing at the last minute to another position if the roles were reversed and they had done the same thing.

"But we changed our position" :crying: :crying: :crying:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

BTW, that's laughing at you.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby vincentpa » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:59 am

SpinnerMan wrote:
vincentpa wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
vincentpa wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:The mainstream Republicans are all corporate whores, as are the Democrats.

^^^this^^^
bought and paid for.



Yeah, so what?

They don't give a schit about the american people-that's what.


But from their perspective, they do.

I used to make that argument as well. However, the death and destruction that we see in Detroit, Chicago, DC, etc. If they truly cared, how are they not outraged? The mass deaths in Russia, China, and so many other places where the central planners have run amok suggest that they don't care about any individual. They can be sacrificed for the greater good. And no matter how high the body count rises the great good the envision in their mind is still far greater. How can that be true if they care about anything but their own desire for power?



By and large, the interests do align. Perhaps for some muli-national corporations, they do not. But, most corporations are not multi-nationals though. Furthermore, I don't think you can conflate poor decision making with not caring on behalf of corporations. I also don't think comparing corporate leadership to communist leadership is even remotely fair or appropriate.

I also think that corporations are a convenient whipping boy. They get saddled with a high tax rate, costly regulations and terrible employment laws. They have no other choice but to lobby congress for favors in order to survive. Corporations have adapted to the environment in which they operate. This does not make them evil. Congress looks out for their constituents, many of whom are employed by those corporations.

That's why blanket statements like the original quote are absurd.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:03 am

vincentpa wrote:I don't make any untrue statements.

vincentpa wrote:It was an irrelevant mistake.


Just like my father used to say. He thought he was wrong once, but he was mistaken.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby vincentpa » Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:12 am

SpinnerMan wrote:
vincentpa wrote:I don't make any untrue statements.

vincentpa wrote:It was an irrelevant mistake.


Just like my father used to say. He thought he was wrong once, but he was mistaken.



Let me point out a logical fallacy that you keep clinging to. It is called the "fallacy fallacy". There was one point on which I was mistaken. This one error does not negate my position and it does not strengthen yours. I took the time to explain why it is irrelevant and does not negate my position. You obviously weren't paying attention. But... if that is all you have to hang your hat on in the end... :beer:
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:43 am

I'll walk through this very slowly for you.

As you said and I agree
vincentpa wrote:They never had a prayer of winning that battle from only one house of Congress and they knew it.


So was their objective to fight a Quixotic battle or use that as a starting point for the negotiations?

Well, we have the benefit of hindsight.

The House passed a bill with that removed before the government shutdown.

Where things went all to hell is when the Republicans like McCain attacked their fellow Republicans. They didn't say, I'd love to see it defunded and I admire the spirit of those that want to fight, but we don't have the numbers right now. The actions of the establishment are not consistent with them being in general agreement which makes your assertion that they are not at odds, not patently false, but certainly suspect. You want to believe that they are on the same page, but their actions leave a lot of room for doubt.

They could have even took the good cop bad cop approach and gone to Obama and said, these guys are nuts. We have to give them something. How about a one year delay in the individual mandate like you did for the businesses, and BTW we will make it actually legal by including the business mandate delay in the law.

Instead the establishment Republicans attacked the Tea Party for being reckless when they were not, but did they ever attack Obama for being reckless for shutting the government down over delaying the individual mandate? Did they attack him over his reckless behavior regarding the shutdown where private property was shutdown, where they paid people to close unmanned parks because they didn't have money to keep them open. Seriously, they found the money to shutdown parks and monuments that would have cost nothing to leave open. This gave Reid and Obama all the cover they needed to extra political gain by exacting personal pain by shutting down the government and doing it in a vindictive way.

You said they knew. They acted like they knew. They made a threat. The Republican establishment attacked. They withdrew and made a counter offer. The Democrats got to act truly recklessly and the Obama administration got away with reckless threats about default and just mean-spirited decisions on how he handled the shutdown.

You were in Spain. You clearly were not following it very closely on your European vacation. Given that I am actually funded by Congress and could have been furloughed, I did pay close attention.

The Democrats wanted the shutdown and the establishment Republicans gave them the cover to shut the government down and mistreat people during the shutdown. That's why the Republicans lost all leverage. It was not because of a threat, arguably an empty one because everybody knew as you said, that was rescinded before the shutdown ever happened.

Now if you want to argue about it being over the delay of the mandate. Well that looks wiser and wiser every day.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby vincentpa » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:19 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:I'll walk through this very slowly for you.

As you said and I agree
vincentpa wrote:They never had a prayer of winning that battle from only one house of Congress and they knew it.


So was their objective to fight a Quixotic battle or use that as a starting point for the negotiations?

Well, we have the benefit of hindsight.

The House passed a bill with that removed before the government shutdown.

Where things went all to hell is when the Republicans like McCain attacked their fellow Republicans. They didn't say, I'd love to see it defunded and I admire the spirit of those that want to fight, but we don't have the numbers right now. The actions of the establishment are not consistent with them being in general agreement which makes your assertion that they are not at odds, not patently false, but certainly suspect. You want to believe that they are on the same page, but their actions leave a lot of room for doubt.

They could have even took the good cop bad cop approach and gone to Obama and said, these guys are nuts. We have to give them something. How about a one year delay in the individual mandate like you did for the businesses, and BTW we will make it actually legal by including the business mandate delay in the law.

Instead the establishment Republicans attacked the Tea Party for being reckless when they were not, but did they ever attack Obama for being reckless for shutting the government down over delaying the individual mandate? Did they attack him over his reckless behavior regarding the shutdown where private property was shutdown, where they paid people to close unmanned parks because they didn't have money to keep them open. Seriously, they found the money to shutdown parks and monuments that would have cost nothing to leave open. This gave Reid and Obama all the cover they needed to extra political gain by exacting personal pain by shutting down the government and doing it in a vindictive way.

You said they knew. They acted like they knew. They made a threat. The Republican establishment attacked. They withdrew and made a counter offer. The Democrats got to act truly recklessly and the Obama administration got away with reckless threats about default and just mean-spirited decisions on how he handled the shutdown.

You were in Spain. You clearly were not following it very closely on your European vacation. Given that I am actually funded by Congress and could have been furloughed, I did pay close attention.

The Democrats wanted the shutdown and the establishment Republicans gave them the cover to shut the government down and mistreat people during the shutdown. That's why the Republicans lost all leverage. It was not because of a threat, arguably an empty one because everybody knew as you said, that was rescinded before the shutdown ever happened.

Now if you want to argue about it being over the delay of the mandate. Well that looks wiser and wiser every day.



You haven't stated anything you haven't stated before. It neither changes your argument nor mine whatsoever.

What you are saying is tantamount to this:

Two groups of guys are about to enter into vehicles at opposing ends of a 10 mile straight track to play chicken. They're going to drive right at each other at full speed to see which one blinks. A group of guys from IL get into a Mack truck and are at one end of the track. Another group of guys from AL get into a Volkeswagon Beetle at the other end of the track. There are a few other guys from KY that refuse to get into the Beetle with the guys from AL even though the guys from AL are imploring them to do so. The guys from KY say the guys from AL are crazy. It's a foolish endevour that will get them all killed. Undeterred, the guys from AL in their Volkeswagon Beetle drive straight at the guys from IL in their Mack truck. The inevitable result happens. The guys from the AL are obliterated by the guys from IL in the stronger position. Afterwards, the guys from AL blame the guys from KY for their loss (I know. The guys from AL should be dead. A little poetic license.). The guys from AL say that if only you guys from KY would've gotten in our Beetle, we would've had enough mass in our vehicle to overcome the mass of the Mack truck to win the day over the guys from IL.

It's obsurd logic you are using.

From Michael Neeham of the Heritage Action Committee, one of the main drivers of the shutdown:

Michael Neeham wrote:Everybody understands that we’re not going to be able to repeal this law until 2017. We have to win the Senate and win the White House.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:44 pm

vincentpa wrote:Two groups of guys are about to enter into vehicles at opposing ends of a 10 mile straight track to play chicken.
There was no game of chicken over the defunding. It was off the table well before the shutdown. It cannot be the cause of the shutdown if it is off the table well before the shutdown.

You are talking about Version 1.0 and we were to 2.0 or 3.0 before the shutdown. You keep going back to 1.0, but that was already out dated at the time of the shutdown.

The shutdown was caused by the Senate's rejection of the House's final offer before the shutdown. It was not caused by their refusal of the initial offer nor the proffering of that initial offer.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby vincentpa » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:59 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:
vincentpa wrote:Two groups of guys are about to enter into vehicles at opposing ends of a 10 mile straight track to play chicken.
There was no game of chicken over the defunding. It was off the table well before the shutdown. It cannot be the cause of the shutdown if it is off the table well before the shutdown.

You are talking about Version 1.0 and we were to 2.0 or 3.0 before the shutdown. You keep going back to 1.0, but that was already out dated at the time of the shutdown.

The shutdown was caused by the Senate's rejection of the House's final offer before the shutdown. It was not caused by their refusal of the initial offer nor the proffering of that initial offer.



Isn't that the point. Versions 2 and 3 don't matter after Version 1 is solidified in the minds of the American people. That's just life. The Democrats understood this. The Tea Party did not. The Tea Party's message is correct. Their delivery is terrible.

You are looking at it like this is a diagram. The diagram changed so it should've gone this way and not that. Unfortunately, this is not a diagram. This whole situation is a little like Keynesian economics. Keynesian theory is brilliant on paper. However, they ignore the human factor in response to their stimulus efforts. It throws a monkey wrench into their entire theory, yet they hang onto it. Ignoring the American tendency to not pay attention is not a winning strategy in politics. Message control and message dissemination and the limits of both are essential. The Tea Party has to understand this or it will continue to fail and take the Republican Party with it.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby Indaswamp » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:02 pm

vincentpa wrote:Isn't that the point. Versions 2 and 3 don't matter after Version 1 is solidified in the minds of the American people.

BS Vinny. It does matter....
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby vincentpa » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:11 pm

Indaswamp wrote:
vincentpa wrote:Isn't that the point. Versions 2 and 3 don't matter after Version 1 is solidified in the minds of the American people.

BS Vinny. It does matter....



Does it? :huh: No, it doesn't. Not at all. Know the environment and plan. It was their failure to understand their environment and plan that led them to this failure. All they have now are excuses. It's very simple to know that I'm correct. I can survey the aftermath. And it ain't pretty.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby beretta24 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:18 pm

vincentpa wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:I'll walk through this very slowly for you.

As you said and I agree
vincentpa wrote:They never had a prayer of winning that battle from only one house of Congress and they knew it.


So was their objective to fight a Quixotic battle or use that as a starting point for the negotiations?

Well, we have the benefit of hindsight.

The House passed a bill with that removed before the government shutdown.

Where things went all to hell is when the Republicans like McCain attacked their fellow Republicans. They didn't say, I'd love to see it defunded and I admire the spirit of those that want to fight, but we don't have the numbers right now. The actions of the establishment are not consistent with them being in general agreement which makes your assertion that they are not at odds, not patently false, but certainly suspect. You want to believe that they are on the same page, but their actions leave a lot of room for doubt.

They could have even took the good cop bad cop approach and gone to Obama and said, these guys are nuts. We have to give them something. How about a one year delay in the individual mandate like you did for the businesses, and BTW we will make it actually legal by including the business mandate delay in the law.

Instead the establishment Republicans attacked the Tea Party for being reckless when they were not, but did they ever attack Obama for being reckless for shutting the government down over delaying the individual mandate? Did they attack him over his reckless behavior regarding the shutdown where private property was shutdown, where they paid people to close unmanned parks because they didn't have money to keep them open. Seriously, they found the money to shutdown parks and monuments that would have cost nothing to leave open. This gave Reid and Obama all the cover they needed to extra political gain by exacting personal pain by shutting down the government and doing it in a vindictive way.

You said they knew. They acted like they knew. They made a threat. The Republican establishment attacked. They withdrew and made a counter offer. The Democrats got to act truly recklessly and the Obama administration got away with reckless threats about default and just mean-spirited decisions on how he handled the shutdown.

You were in Spain. You clearly were not following it very closely on your European vacation. Given that I am actually funded by Congress and could have been furloughed, I did pay close attention.

The Democrats wanted the shutdown and the establishment Republicans gave them the cover to shut the government down and mistreat people during the shutdown. That's why the Republicans lost all leverage. It was not because of a threat, arguably an empty one because everybody knew as you said, that was rescinded before the shutdown ever happened.

Now if you want to argue about it being over the delay of the mandate. Well that looks wiser and wiser every day.



You haven't stated anything you haven't stated before. It neither changes your argument nor mine whatsoever.

What you are saying is tantamount to this:

Two groups of guys are about to enter into vehicles at opposing ends of a 10 mile straight track to play chicken. They're going to drive right at each other at full speed to see which one blinks. A group of guys from IL get into a Mack truck and are at one end of the track. Another group of guys from AL get into a Volkeswagon Beetle at the other end of the track. There are a few other guys from KY that refuse to get into the Beetle with the guys from AL even though the guys from AL are imploring them to do so. The guys from KY say the guys from AL are crazy. It's a foolish endevour that will get them all killed. Undeterred, the guys from AL in their Volkeswagon Beetle drive straight at the guys from IL in their Mack truck. The inevitable result happens. The guys from the AL are obliterated by the guys from IL in the stronger position. Afterwards, the guys from AL blame the guys from KY for their loss (I know. The guys from AL should be dead. A little poetic license.). The guys from AL say that if only you guys from KY would've gotten in our Beetle, we would've had enough mass in our vehicle to overcome the mass of the Mack truck to win the day over the guys from IL.

It's obsurd logic you are using.

From Michael Neeham of the Heritage Action Committee, one of the main drivers of the shutdown:

Michael Neeham wrote:Everybody understands that we’re not going to be able to repeal this law until 2017. We have to win the Senate and win the White House.


Your analogy is a poor one. It assumes the sole objective of the folks in the beetle was to smash the Mack truck. Your unwillingness to give reasonable consideration to a different point of view, or to consider that there may be more than one way to meet and objective is small minded at best.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby vincentpa » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:29 pm

beretta24 wrote:Your analogy is a poor one. It assumes the sole objective of the folks in the beetle was to smash the Mack truck. Your unwillingness to give reasonable consideration to a different point of view, or to consider that there may be more than one way to meet and objective is small minded at best.


If Spinner can't defend his position, you certainly won't be able to.

I have given "reasonable consideration" to a "different point of view". I've weighed and measured it and found it wanting. It was foolish and destructive.

As I've stated for the umpteenth time. Da results be da results. And d'ose results don't s'port ya.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:44 pm

vincentpa wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
vincentpa wrote:Two groups of guys are about to enter into vehicles at opposing ends of a 10 mile straight track to play chicken.
There was no game of chicken over the defunding. It was off the table well before the shutdown. It cannot be the cause of the shutdown if it is off the table well before the shutdown.

You are talking about Version 1.0 and we were to 2.0 or 3.0 before the shutdown. You keep going back to 1.0, but that was already out dated at the time of the shutdown.

The shutdown was caused by the Senate's rejection of the House's final offer before the shutdown. It was not caused by their refusal of the initial offer nor the proffering of that initial offer.



Isn't that the point. Versions 2 and 3 don't matter after Version 1 is solidified in the minds of the American people.
It's solidified in your mind. That's for damn sure.

And what is going to be solidified. The Tea Party fighting against the Obamacare debacle. Something everybody knew was going to be a debacle. :huh:

Obama and the establishment's attempt to destroy their shared political enemy by working to solidify a false narrative in the minds of the public may as a result of the Obama administration incompetence make Ted Cruz look like a genius.
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