10 things only idiots will ignore

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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby blackduckdog2 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:12 pm

Yeah they got co-opted, but I think they had a little too much big money backing from day one to really be considered grass-roots at their inception. Nonetheless a lot of well-meaning folks did get on board, and for that I applaud them. They let the far right crazies have far too big a profile though, and that, more than anything else, is what sunk them. Americans saw the extremity and they didn't like it (they never do)
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby Indaswamp » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:14 pm

Fact-the first "Tea Party" movement was a protest in response to TARP.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby Indaswamp » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:17 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:Yeah they got co-opted, but I think they had a little too much big money backing from day one to really be considered grass-roots at their inception.

NOPE. see above post.

Nonetheless a lot of well-meaning folks did get on board, and for that I applaud them. They let the far right crazies have far too big a profile though

agreed... the original message became split and that was intentional BTW...
, and that, more than anything else, is what sunk them. Americans saw the extremity and they didn't like it (they never do)

So the Co option was successful. thanks for pointing that out. The original anger that spawned the original movement still exists and is even more pissed off-that I can promise you.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby blackduckdog2 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:38 pm

Indaswamp wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:Yeah they got co-opted, but I think they had a little too much big money backing from day one to really be considered grass-roots at their inception.

NOPE. see above post.

Nonetheless a lot of well-meaning folks did get on board, and for that I applaud them. They let the far right crazies have far too big a profile though

agreed... the original message became split and that was intentional BTW...
, and that, more than anything else, is what sunk them. Americans saw the extremity and they didn't like it (they never do)

So the Co option was successful. thanks for pointing that out. The original anger that spawned the original movement still exists and is even more pissed off-that I can promise you.

They didn't HAVE to let themselves be co-opted by the crazy, Inda. The fact is, a lot of that anger on the right is much more oriented toward social issues, where they are losing ground rapidly. If they could have stayed focused on the money, and avoided the social wing-nuts, I think they'd still be a force. But that's a deal with the devil the right made a long time ago, and good luck trying to unpack it now.........
As to the anger still being there, yeah, it probably is. It probably always is, left AND right. But it only surfaces in waves and then dissipates. You gotta ride it while it lasts and then know when to bail. There's an element of human dynamics here that is only overlooked at a party's extreme peril
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby Indaswamp » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:46 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:Yeah they got co-opted, but I think they had a little too much big money backing from day one to really be considered grass-roots at their inception.

NOPE. see above post.

Nonetheless a lot of well-meaning folks did get on board, and for that I applaud them. They let the far right crazies have far too big a profile though

agreed... the original message became split and that was intentional BTW...
, and that, more than anything else, is what sunk them. Americans saw the extremity and they didn't like it (they never do)

So the Co option was successful. thanks for pointing that out. The original anger that spawned the original movement still exists and is even more pissed off-that I can promise you.

They didn't HAVE to let themselves be co-opted by the crazy, Inda.


You say that like they had a choice. the tea party movement was extremely unorganized, fractured, and had no central leadership, until it was co-opted.


The fact is, a lot of that anger on the right is much more oriented toward social issues, where they are losing ground rapidly. If they could have stayed focused on the money, and avoided the social wing-nuts, I think they'd still be a force. But that's a deal with the devil the right made a long time ago, and good luck trying to unpack it now.........
As to the anger still being there, yeah, it probably is. It probably always is, left AND right. But it only surfaces in waves and then dissipates. You gotta ride it while it lasts and then know when to bail. There's an element of human dynamics here that is only overlooked at a party's extreme peril
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby blackduckdog2 » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:06 pm

I don't know about that, Inda.........they could have put some brakes on the social extremists, but yeah, that's tough to do, I agree. It doesn't seem like they even tried, though
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby Indaswamp » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:19 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:I don't know about that, Inda.........they could have put some brakes on the social extremists, but yeah, that's tough to do, I agree. It doesn't seem like they even tried, though

the main thrust of the Tea Party was protest to the TARP bailout, the massive mortgage frauds, as well as other targeted abuses. that got lost when the social issues clouded the original purpose. it was a very splintered coalition to begin with. Once it got Co-opted, the original message was overwhelmed by side show issues intentionally. The money came with the Co-option, and they controlled the message after that.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby beretta24 » Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:17 am

blackduckdog2 wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:

not for the reasons you assume...

your turn to explain

It because they welched on their promises addressing the debt, not because they were too conservative my friend.

That's wishful thinking, Inda.......the country's been souring on their take no prisoners tactics for quite some time now. That Gallup poll was Sept 26th..........they hadn't caved at that point. I don't think they ever caved, actually. But the country is still sick of their approach

I don't think its the tactic they are sour on. The president used the same take no prisoners tactic. Who was the only one that refused to negotiate at all?

People are sour on them because the doom and gloom the Tea Party has been warning people about hasn't been realized due in part to massive stimulus, insanely low interest rates, and, until 2014, the gradual implementation of the ACA. The wealth destruction can be blamed on slow "growth" and people believe it.

In order for the ACA not to implode the individual mandate will likely need to be removed, and even that may not temporarily save it. If not, the massive tax will turn many independents, many of the dems excluding the poorest and richest, and almost all repubs away from the dems in 2014. Those paying for the ACA through legalized extortion will show up at the polls.

Money talks, and the Tea Party made it absurdly clear that they are willing to fight the tax. I think that message will resonate regardless of what the polls say today.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby Indaswamp » Fri Oct 25, 2013 2:22 am

beretta24 wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:

not for the reasons you assume...

your turn to explain

It because they welched on their promises addressing the debt, not because they were too conservative my friend.

That's wishful thinking, Inda.......the country's been souring on their take no prisoners tactics for quite some time now. That Gallup poll was Sept 26th..........they hadn't caved at that point. I don't think they ever caved, actually. But the country is still sick of their approach

I don't think its the tactic they are sour on. The president used the same take no prisoners tactic. Who was the only one that refused to negotiate at all?

People are sour on them because the doom and gloom the Tea Party has been warning people about hasn't been realized due in part to massive stimulus, insanely low interest rates, and, until 2014, the gradual implementation of the ACA. The wealth destruction can be blamed on slow "growth" and people believe it.

In order for the ACA not to implode the individual mandate will likely need to be removed, and even that may not temporarily save it. If not, the massive tax will turn many independents, many of the dems excluding the poorest and richest, and almost all repubs away from the dems in 2014. Those paying for the ACA through legalized extortion will show up at the polls.

Money talks, and the Tea Party made it absurdly clear that they are willing to fight the tax. I think that message will resonate regardless of what the polls say today.

ACA can not survive without health young people signing up (which they won't) to get raped financially...the models that the pricing is predicated on assumes that young people sign up. When that doesn't happen, prices will skyrocket, further driving healthy people away.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby beretta24 » Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:01 am

Indaswamp wrote:
beretta24 wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:

not for the reasons you assume...

your turn to explain

It because they welched on their promises addressing the debt, not because they were too conservative my friend.

That's wishful thinking, Inda.......the country's been souring on their take no prisoners tactics for quite some time now. That Gallup poll was Sept 26th..........they hadn't caved at that point. I don't think they ever caved, actually. But the country is still sick of their approach

I don't think its the tactic they are sour on. The president used the same take no prisoners tactic. Who was the only one that refused to negotiate at all?

People are sour on them because the doom and gloom the Tea Party has been warning people about hasn't been realized due in part to massive stimulus, insanely low interest rates, and, until 2014, the gradual implementation of the ACA. The wealth destruction can be blamed on slow "growth" and people believe it.

In order for the ACA not to implode the individual mandate will likely need to be removed, and even that may not temporarily save it. If not, the massive tax will turn many independents, many of the dems excluding the poorest and richest, and almost all repubs away from the dems in 2014. Those paying for the ACA through legalized extortion will show up at the polls.

Money talks, and the Tea Party made it absurdly clear that they are willing to fight the tax. I think that message will resonate regardless of what the polls say today.

ACA can not survive without health young people signing up (which they won't) to get raped financially...the models that the pricing is predicated on assumes that young people sign up. When that doesn't happen, prices will skyrocket, further driving healthy people away.

But even if they don't sign up they will pay the tax as a fine, so regardless of health care costs going up, they will take it out on the dems in 2014. The price thing won't impact them as much in 2014 as it will later if the law isn't changed first.

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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby beretta24 » Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:02 am

beretta24 wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
beretta24 wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:

not for the reasons you assume...

your turn to explain

It because they welched on their promises addressing the debt, not because they were too conservative my friend.

That's wishful thinking, Inda.......the country's been souring on their take no prisoners tactics for quite some time now. That Gallup poll was Sept 26th..........they hadn't caved at that point. I don't think they ever caved, actually. But the country is still sick of their approach

I don't think its the tactic they are sour on. The president used the same take no prisoners tactic. Who was the only one that refused to negotiate at all?

People are sour on them because the doom and gloom the Tea Party has been warning people about hasn't been realized due in part to massive stimulus, insanely low interest rates, and, until 2014, the gradual implementation of the ACA. The wealth destruction can be blamed on slow "growth" and people believe it.

In order for the ACA not to implode the individual mandate will likely need to be removed, and even that may not temporarily save it. If not, the massive tax will turn many independents, many of the dems excluding the poorest and richest, and almost all repubs away from the dems in 2014. Those paying for the ACA through legalized extortion will show up at the polls.

Money talks, and the Tea Party made it absurdly clear that they are willing to fight the tax. I think that message will resonate regardless of what the polls say today.

ACA can not survive without health young people signing up (which they won't) to get raped financially...the models that the pricing is predicated on assumes that young people sign up. When that doesn't happen, prices will skyrocket, further driving healthy people away.

But even if they don't sign up they will pay the tax as a fine, so regardless of health care costs going up, they will take it out on the dems in 2014. The price thing won't impact them as much in 2014 as it will later if the law isn't changed first.

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I don't disagree with what you're saying, but your point won't likely rear its head as soon as the immediate tax.

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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby assateague » Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:11 am

I find it amusing that those on the left only seem to "see" the Tea Party as "extremists who hijacked the party". Do you not see the same thing happening on the left? BDD2, did you miss the 16% approval rating for Obama among independents? That seems to have been casually ignored. The portrayal that only the right has extremists is, quite frankly, stupid. As is the belief that people only get tired of right wing "extremists".
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby Indaswamp » Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:14 am

assateague wrote:I find it amusing that those on the left only seem to "see" the Tea Party as "extremists who hijacked the party". Do you not see the same thing happening on the left? BDD2, did you miss the 16% approval rating for Obama among independents? That seems to have been casually ignored. The portrayal that only the right has extremists is, quite frankly, stupid. As is the belief that people only get tired of right wing "extremists".

i.e., Obama is a left wing extremist. But I doubt BDD2 sees him as such.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby vincentpa » Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:45 am

SpinnerMan wrote:
vincentpa wrote:Is the tea party fighting or winning or hindering?
They got big cuts in spending by putting the fear of a primary into McConnell and many others.

Who knows what they would have gotten in this round if the establishment Republicans hadn't gone after them?

Clearly they can't get anything with both the Democrats and the McCainiacs joining forces against them.

Why don't the establishment Republicans have any blame in your mind? Was going after the Tea Party a wise strategy or did it enable the debacle by solidifying in the minds of the American people something that was off the table before the shutdown started.

A better analogy is like the abusive spouse blaming the abused spouse for them abusing them. If she wouldn't say those silly things, he wouldn't have to attack her. That pathetic excuse is used all the time. And I'm sure that is why the McCainiac claim they did what they did and then gave Obama all he wanted and McConnell a few billion in to be spent in his state. How stupid was he to include this in this bill. That may doom his reelection.

vincentpa wrote:BTW, it's solidified in the minds of an overwhelming majority of Americans.

BTW, what the hell does this even mean? For how long? A week. A month. It will have zero impact on the next election. Well, maybe not. It has solidified my dislike for so many of the establishment and the need to get them out if we are really going to make the fundamental change that we need to return American to an economically and socially sustainable path.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/ted-cruz-poll-shows-gop-gained-in-fight-over-obamacare-despite-shutdown/article/2537066
– By a margin of 42 percent to 36 percent, independent voters blamed Republicans for the shutdown over Obama and the Democrats.

– In November 1995, 51 percent of voters blamed Republicans for the shutdown; only 28 percent blamed then-President Clinton

It is almost equally split between Obama and the Republicans unlike the impression you want to give. Honestly I didn't know that is where the polling was because anybody with common sense knows that something that had no impact on the vast majority is not going to be solidified with the majority of voters and it will have little effect on elections over a year away.



Spinner,
This is what pizzes me off about you. Firstly, you fabricated my position that the Republicans couldn't come back. I never stated the shutdown would destroy the Republican Party. I went as far to state and clarify my position in a post as well as agreeing with you in another thread entirely, the one started by. Of course they can. However, the goal is to win as many seats in Congress as you can. To do this, you have to appear competent and you have to build momentum. The more momentum you have the more seats you win. When you start at -5 and add 10, you have +5. When you start at +5 and ad 10, you have 15. I'd rather have 15 than 5. Math is simple Mr. Nuclear Physicist.

Stating who gets blamed more is absurd. That's like stating, "yeah, but the people hate our guy less than they hate your guy." BDD2 is correct. The American people don't like the antics of the Tea Party. The antics drown out the message. That's the real shame because the Tea Party message is the correct one.

You tend to gloss over parts of posts that do not fit the narrative you've created for the person you're debating. I don't know if you do it on purpose but you do it whenever you do not have the upper in debates. This is not the first time I've had you do it to me and I've seen you do it to others. I'm not going to continually restate and re-explain my position
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby vincentpa » Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:53 am

Indaswamp wrote:
assateague wrote:I find it amusing that those on the left only seem to "see" the Tea Party as "extremists who hijacked the party". Do you not see the same thing happening on the left? BDD2, did you miss the 16% approval rating for Obama among independents? That seems to have been casually ignored. The portrayal that only the right has extremists is, quite frankly, stupid. As is the belief that people only get tired of right wing "extremists".

i.e., Obama is a left wing extremist. But I doubt BDD2 sees him as such.



Obama comports himself much better. He understands style and image. The Tea Party could learn a lot from him in this regard. These things are very important in politics in this country.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby Indaswamp » Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:14 am

vincentpa wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
assateague wrote:I find it amusing that those on the left only seem to "see" the Tea Party as "extremists who hijacked the party". Do you not see the same thing happening on the left? BDD2, did you miss the 16% approval rating for Obama among independents? That seems to have been casually ignored. The portrayal that only the right has extremists is, quite frankly, stupid. As is the belief that people only get tired of right wing "extremists".

i.e., Obama is a left wing extremist. But I doubt BDD2 sees him as such.



Obama comports himself much better. He understands style and image. The Tea Party could learn a lot from him in this regard. These things are very important in politics in this country.

sadly, that is all he has.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby vincentpa » Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:21 am

Indaswamp wrote:
vincentpa wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
assateague wrote:I find it amusing that those on the left only seem to "see" the Tea Party as "extremists who hijacked the party". Do you not see the same thing happening on the left? BDD2, did you miss the 16% approval rating for Obama among independents? That seems to have been casually ignored. The portrayal that only the right has extremists is, quite frankly, stupid. As is the belief that people only get tired of right wing "extremists".

i.e., Obama is a left wing extremist. But I doubt BDD2 sees him as such.



Obama comports himself much better. He understands style and image. The Tea Party could learn a lot from him in this regard. These things are very important in politics in this country.

sadly, that is all he has.



Sadly yes. But IT was enough to win him a Senate seat and then the presidency twice. IT is powerful; so powerful IT can even propel an incompetent fool to great heights. If only the Tea Party understood IT.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby Indaswamp » Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:25 am

vincentpa wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
vincentpa wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
assateague wrote:I find it amusing that those on the left only seem to "see" the Tea Party as "extremists who hijacked the party". Do you not see the same thing happening on the left? BDD2, did you miss the 16% approval rating for Obama among independents? That seems to have been casually ignored. The portrayal that only the right has extremists is, quite frankly, stupid. As is the belief that people only get tired of right wing "extremists".

i.e., Obama is a left wing extremist. But I doubt BDD2 sees him as such.



Obama comports himself much better. He understands style and image. The Tea Party could learn a lot from him in this regard. These things are very important in politics in this country.

sadly, that is all he has.



Sadly yes. But IT was enough to win him a Senate seat and then the presidency twice. IT is powerful; so powerful IT can even propel an incompetent fool to great heights. If only the Tea Party understood IT.

He had the help of a passive liberal press that portrayed him as a moderate, when he is anything but.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby beretta24 » Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:27 am

vincentpa wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
assateague wrote:I find it amusing that those on the left only seem to "see" the Tea Party as "extremists who hijacked the party". Do you not see the same thing happening on the left? BDD2, did you miss the 16% approval rating for Obama among independents? That seems to have been casually ignored. The portrayal that only the right has extremists is, quite frankly, stupid. As is the belief that people only get tired of right wing "extremists".

i.e., Obama is a left wing extremist. But I doubt BDD2 sees him as such.



Obama comports himself much better. He understands style and image. The Tea Party could learn a lot from him in this regard. These things are very important in politics in this country.

Comparing the ability of an individual and a party when it comes to controlling image, especially when one is generally supported by the media, is silly. The media will never ignore the tea party looney toons, and they will impact the image.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby vincentpa » Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:41 am

Indaswamp wrote:
vincentpa wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
vincentpa wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
assateague wrote:I find it amusing that those on the left only seem to "see" the Tea Party as "extremists who hijacked the party". Do you not see the same thing happening on the left? BDD2, did you miss the 16% approval rating for Obama among independents? That seems to have been casually ignored. The portrayal that only the right has extremists is, quite frankly, stupid. As is the belief that people only get tired of right wing "extremists".

i.e., Obama is a left wing extremist. But I doubt BDD2 sees him as such.



Obama comports himself much better. He understands style and image. The Tea Party could learn a lot from him in this regard. These things are very important in politics in this country.

sadly, that is all he has.



Sadly yes. But IT was enough to win him a Senate seat and then the presidency twice. IT is powerful; so powerful IT can even propel an incompetent fool to great heights. If only the Tea Party understood IT.

He had the help of a passive liberal press that portrayed him as a moderate, when he is anything but.



But that's how he portrays himself. He puts image above all. He controls his image so tightly. He knows that is all he's got. Remember, his goal was to transform America. That is a recognition that America is not where he is politically.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby assateague » Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:29 am

vincentpa wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
assateague wrote:I find it amusing that those on the left only seem to "see" the Tea Party as "extremists who hijacked the party". Do you not see the same thing happening on the left? BDD2, did you miss the 16% approval rating for Obama among independents? That seems to have been casually ignored. The portrayal that only the right has extremists is, quite frankly, stupid. As is the belief that people only get tired of right wing "extremists".

i.e., Obama is a left wing extremist. But I doubt BDD2 sees him as such.



Obama comports himself much better. He understands style and image. The Tea Party could learn a lot from him in this regard. These things are very important in politics in this country.



You too seem to ignore that his approval rating is at 16% among independents. 16%. Sixteen percent. You've been buying into the media-approved narrative far too much, it seems.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby vincentpa » Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:35 am

assateague wrote:
vincentpa wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
assateague wrote:I find it amusing that those on the left only seem to "see" the Tea Party as "extremists who hijacked the party". Do you not see the same thing happening on the left? BDD2, did you miss the 16% approval rating for Obama among independents? That seems to have been casually ignored. The portrayal that only the right has extremists is, quite frankly, stupid. As is the belief that people only get tired of right wing "extremists".

i.e., Obama is a left wing extremist. But I doubt BDD2 sees him as such.



Obama comports himself much better. He understands style and image. The Tea Party could learn a lot from him in this regard. These things are very important in politics in this country.



You too seem to ignore that his approval rating is at 16% among independents. 16%. Sixteen percent. You've been buying into the media-approved narrative far too much, it seems.



:huh:

His approval rating is still over 40%. After all of the policy disasters and coupled with the terrible economy, that is amazing. See my prior post about getting elected to office.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby assateague » Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:41 am

Among independents, I said. These are the folks who you claim have a problem with extremists of either ilk. And as of last week, they have Obama at a 16% approval rating. See my earlier post.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby vincentpa » Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:03 am

assateague wrote:Among independents, I said. These are the folks who you claim have a problem with extremists of either ilk. And as of last week, they have Obama at a 16% approval rating. See my earlier post.



This has absolutely no bearing on any of the last few posts. But, I'll humor you. How long did it take the independents to get to that point? The point I was making is that Barry was able to control his image and comport himself in such a way that he was able to get elected even though he was an inexperienced incompetent fool. That demonstrates how important image is in politics. Image can carry you so far but even the Anointed One can't overcome this debacle.
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Re: 10 things only idiots will ignore

Postby blackduckdog2 » Fri Oct 25, 2013 8:30 am

Indaswamp wrote:
assateague wrote:I find it amusing that those on the left only seem to "see" the Tea Party as "extremists who hijacked the party". Do you not see the same thing happening on the left? BDD2, did you miss the 16% approval rating for Obama among independents? That seems to have been casually ignored. The portrayal that only the right has extremists is, quite frankly, stupid. As is the belief that people only get tired of right wing "extremists".

i.e., Obama is a left wing extremist. But I doubt BDD2 sees him as such.

Only right wing extremists see him as such. And compared to the majority on this forum, I'm pretty damned moderate, by average American standards
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