Who flies this flag?

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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby assateague » Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Spinner, if you bring up the Articles of Confederation again, I'm going to rip my eyes out, I swear. They have as much bearing on our current government and the right of secession as the Constitution of Kyrgyzstan. Originally, you said that a state could not secede. Your argument most assuredly was NOT "the southern states didn't secede properly", it was that they COULD NOT secede. Now you have changed that. Eventually, you will have to admit to yourself that you either believe states are coerced and held at gunpoint to be a part of the union, or that they are free to leave. There is no middle ground.
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby boney fingers » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:12 pm

Wondering what everyones thoughts are on Alexander Stevens cornerstone speech are. He briefly hits on issues many from the south claim were the reason for the war, but then he goes into lengthy detail on the slavery issue. Since this is a recorded speech, does it give us insight into what people were thinking at the time or is it just ramblings of one mans (who was chosen VP) opinion. This debate has always fascinated me and I try to look at things from both sides. I have concluded in my mind that slavery was indeed a very large factor (for the south not the north) in the war if not the biggest factor (that may be a stretch) and this speech along with the constitution of the south are two of the main reasons I feel this way. Both the speech and the constitution cant be debated for their content but Im interested to hear others interpretations of them.
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby blackduckdog2 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:36 pm

assateague wrote:Spinner, if you bring up the Articles of Confederation again, I'm going to rip my eyes out, I swear.

never figured you for an Oedipus hang-up
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby blackduckdog2 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:37 pm

boney fingers wrote:Wondering what everyones thoughts are on Alexander Stevens cornerstone speech are. He briefly hits on issues many from the south claim were the reason for the war, but then he goes into lengthy detail on the slavery issue. Since this is a recorded speech, does it give us insight into what people were thinking at the time or is it just ramblings of one mans (who was chosen VP) opinion. This debate has always fascinated me and I try to look at things from both sides. I have concluded in my mind that slavery was indeed a very large factor (for the south not the north) in the war if not the biggest factor (that may be a stretch) and this speech along with the constitution of the south are two of the main reasons I feel this way. Both the speech and the constitution cant be debated for their content but Im interested to hear others interpretations of them.

Now I gotta go read the speech……….
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby Indaswamp » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:46 pm

assateague wrote:Spinner, if you bring up the Articles of Confederation again, I'm going to rip my eyes out, I swear. They have as much bearing on our current government and the right of secession as the Constitution of Kyrgyzstan. Originally, you said that a state could not secede. Your argument most assuredly was NOT "the southern states didn't secede properly", it was that they COULD NOT secede. Now you have changed that. Eventually, you will have to admit to yourself that you either believe states are coerced and held at gunpoint to be a part of the union, or that they are free to leave. There is no middle ground.

Eh...they certainly are not helping you hit pintails....so no loss right??? :lol3: :lol3: :lol3:
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby assateague » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:02 pm

It's my trigger finger that causes that problem. The eyes see them too far out, and the trigger finger just can't wait.
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby blackduckdog2 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:39 pm

I think we wall ought take up a collection to have for the best Bull Sprig any of us shoots this season mounted and sent to AT.
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby wanapasaki » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:42 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:I think we wall ought take up a collection to have for the best Bull Sprig any of us shoots this season mounted and sent to AT.


I have one nice bull in my freezer that might suffice lol
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby Indaswamp » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:57 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:I think we wall ought take up a collection to have for the best Bull Sprig any of us shoots this season mounted and sent to AT.

I've already offered him a mojo bag from the voodoo lady..... :wink:
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby blackduckdog2 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:39 pm

Indaswamp wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:I think we wall ought take up a collection to have for the best Bull Sprig any of us shoots this season mounted and sent to AT.

I've already offered him a mojo bag from the voodoo lady..... :wink:

I never saw that many when I hunted back there………at least not like it is up here in the NW. Some seasons the sound is lousy with them. They really gotta raise the limit from two, but I don't suppose all that does AT any much good
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby blackduckdog2 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:40 pm

wanapasaki wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:I think we wall ought take up a collection to have for the best Bull Sprig any of us shoots this season mounted and sent to AT.


I have one nice bull in my freezer that might suffice lol

There we go…….maybe there's a guy around here to stuff it. Where's Brydog when ya really need him? :lol3:
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby Indaswamp » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:42 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:
wanapasaki wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:I think we wall ought take up a collection to have for the best Bull Sprig any of us shoots this season mounted and sent to AT.


I have one nice bull in my freezer that might suffice lol

There we go…….maybe there's a guy around here to stuff it. Where's Brydog when ya really need him? :lol3:

didn't know he was a taxidermist.....thought he was a carpenter? :huh:
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby Indaswamp » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:43 pm

here ya go BDD2...I'm gonna be rockin out to this onda bayou thursday morning about 8 o'clock headed to da camp....
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby blackduckdog2 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:39 am

Indaswamp wrote:here ya go BDD2...I'm gonna be rockin out to this onda bayou thursday morning about 8 o'clock headed to da camp....

One of the best ever!! Pick up a flat rock and skim it across (insert local river's name here) for me, willya?
Last edited by blackduckdog2 on Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby blackduckdog2 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:46 am

Indaswamp wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
wanapasaki wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:I think we wall ought take up a collection to have for the best Bull Sprig any of us shoots this season mounted and sent to AT.


I have one nice bull in my freezer that might suffice lol

There we go…….maybe there's a guy around here to stuff it. Where's Brydog when ya really need him? :lol3:

didn't know he was a taxidermist.....thought he was a carpenter? :huh:

Maybe he was a carpenter, but he had a taxidermy shop too. Don't know if it was a side thing or not
My taxidermy shop hasn't done enough business in the past 3 years to even keep itself afloat. My walls are FULL of customer mounts that can't be picked up due to the economy. Lack of JOBS. My freezers are full of fish and small game that customers have put on hold due to the economy. I know how you feel.
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby SpinnerMan » Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:18 am

assateague wrote:Spinner, if you bring up the Articles of Confederation again, I'm going to rip my eyes out, I swear. They have as much bearing on our current government and the right of secession as the Constitution of Kyrgyzstan. Originally, you said that a state could not secede. Your argument most assuredly was NOT "the southern states didn't secede properly", it was that they COULD NOT secede. Now you have changed that. Eventually, you will have to admit to yourself that you either believe states are coerced and held at gunpoint to be a part of the union, or that they are free to leave. There is no middle ground.

The Articles of Confederation show that the states were WILLING to join in a perpetual union. They are an indisputable piece of evidence that the Constitution could be the opposite of what you claim. You pretend like that is not possible. It is.

It is 100% relevant because it is the same players and the Constitution was the improvement upon them.

Please, don't rip your eyes out. But they are 100% relevant. Just like Madison's letter to New York that says it is forever.

ScaupHunter wrote:Reread my post Spinner. I know of more a few folks who just walked away and never looked back at marriages. They simply took the loss and moved on with life.
That doesn't make it legal. They didn't get to unilaterally set the terms. And clearly, you are not thinking about the vow made to God. That lose may have been more hefty than they thought.

ScaupHunter wrote:Plenty of people have simply walked away from contracts and never been called to account.
And plenty of people have, so what is your point? :huh:

ScaupHunter wrote:Trying to argue that laws are laws and have to be followed simply ignores the reality that we only enforce the ones we find convenient and ignore the rest until someone decides to punish someone for something they don't like.

So you agree that the law is that it is a perpetual union. As Madison said, the Constitution required an adoption in toto, and for ever. Except just like so much law we disregard, at the end of the day, it is irrelevant because it is just a worthless piece of paper like so many other promises. If you like your Constitution, you can keep your Constition :thumbsup:

You really seem to be making the argument that whatever they agreed to back them is irrelevant today because you don't like it. Liberal argument to the core.
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby assateague » Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:00 am

Wait- now you're back to arguing that a state may NOT secede, that they have joined in perpetuity? Just a minute ago you were saying they COULD secede. So which is it?
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby SpinnerMan » Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:50 pm

assateague wrote:Wait- now you're back to arguing that a state may NOT secede, that they have joined in perpetuity? Just a minute ago you were saying they COULD secede. So which is it?

When did I ever say they could unilaterally secede? :huh:

Obviously, they can dissolve the union in the same way the created it. Obviously any state can ask to be let out and leave via the same process the union was created.

The question is about unilateral secession over the objections of the rest of the union.

Can a state pull a Cartman?

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Based on the letter from Madison to New York when they were ratifying the Constitution, the answer seems to be, no they cannot. They were considering including that qualifier in their ratification, but it appears that they did not and agreed that it was in toto and forever as Madison said it must be. And this seems consistent with the Articles of Confederation that were being replaced Image
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby assateague » Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:52 pm

In the same post you just said they could leave, and that they couldn't leave. Please pick one.
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby assateague » Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:57 pm

SpinnerMan wrote: It seems like they must ask the permission of the other states. They have to negotiate the terms. What fraction of the debt and assets is theirs? What is the fate of community property within the state?





SpinnerMan wrote:Obviously any state can ask to be let out and leave via the same process the union was created.



SpinnerMan wrote:They were considering including that qualifier in their ratification, but it appears that they did not and agreed that it was in toto and forever as Madison said it must be.


SpinnerMan wrote:So you agree that the law is that it is a perpetual union. As Madison said, the Constitution required an adoption in toto, and for ever.
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby SpinnerMan » Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:00 pm

Sorry AT, I'm not going to keep playing your silly game. You thought a state could just walk and it's pretty clear that is not a given and probably not true. It was fun, I learned a lot. Mostly that you were wrong and now want to play this silly game.
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby ohioboy » Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:20 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:Sorry AT, I'm not going to keep playing your silly game. You thought a state could just walk and it's pretty clear that is not a given and probably not true. It was fun, I learned a lot. Mostly that you were wrong and now want to play this silly game.


he is never wrong. just ask him. :thumbsup: he also never ignores a question unless he does not want to answer it.

spinner, i will say you always answer. usually with lots more thought than me btw.
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby blackduckdog2 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:39 pm

ohioboy wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:Sorry AT, I'm not going to keep playing your silly game. You thought a state could just walk and it's pretty clear that is not a given and probably not true. It was fun, I learned a lot. Mostly that you were wrong and now want to play this silly game.


he is never wrong. just ask him. :thumbsup: he also never ignores a question unless he does not want to answer it.

spinner, i will say you always answer. usually with lots more thought than me btw.

Winners and losers aside, AT is the only guy I know of in here who can out-bulldog Spinner in a dogfight. I haven't gone more than a page with Spinner in years, so I'm glad someone's willing to do it :lol3: :lol3:
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby assateague » Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:15 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:Sorry AT, I'm not going to keep playing your silly game. You thought a state could just walk and it's pretty clear that is not a given and probably not true. It was fun, I learned a lot. Mostly that you were wrong and now want to play this silly game.



What game have I played? I have maintained from the get-go that a state may leave. Period. You have gone all over the map (as I quoted you doing about 3 posts ago- if you would like, I'll do it again). If by "silly game" you mean "picking a stance and sticking to it", then yes, I suppose it is a silly game. If you would point out where my argument has changed ONE BIT, I will happily acknowledge it. And if you would like me to requote your ever-changing position on secession, I will be happy to do that, as well.
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby Indaswamp » Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:10 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:here ya go BDD2...I'm gonna be rockin out to this onda bayou thursday morning about 8 o'clock headed to da camp....

One of the best ever!! Pick up a flat rock and skim it across (insert local river's name here) for me, willya?

:lol3: no flat rocks here! :lol3:
I'll also be playin this:
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