Who flies this flag?

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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby beretta24 » Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:08 am

blackduckdog2 wrote:
clampdaddy wrote:
assateague wrote:I find it ironic to say that it was about slavery, when slavery existed in the north. Nor did the Emancipation Proclamation free ALL slaves- it only applied to slaves in the South, not slaves in the North. There were more than a couple Northern states where slavery was perfectly ok until AFTER the civil war, when it became law that slaves were free......

Very good point.

Really? That doesn't seem like much of a point at all to me. A whole lot of abolitionists in the southland, were there? For chrissakes, it was the defining issue of the day, year, decade, century.......this is delusional


Replace the slaves with machines...and there still would've been a war.
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby vincentpa » Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:35 am

Indaswamp wrote:
clampdaddy wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:I would have to say Slow is feeling a bit threatened by the flag. Not sure why. Lots of folks fly the rebel flag for a variety of reasons......

Are you trying to say that flying the confederate flag could maybe, just maybe, mean that someone has a problem with the federal government imposing its will upon the people? Kinda like that mean looking snake flag that they used to fly to show their displeasure with how they were treated by the British? :huh:

forget that....time to fly the American flag upside down...



I've seen it a few times while driving in the county. It always makes me smile when I do.
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby vincentpa » Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:47 am

blackduckdog2 wrote:
clampdaddy wrote:
assateague wrote:I find it ironic to say that it was about slavery, when slavery existed in the north. Nor did the Emancipation Proclamation free ALL slaves- it only applied to slaves in the South, not slaves in the North. There were more than a couple Northern states where slavery was perfectly ok until AFTER the civil war, when it became law that slaves were free......

Very good point.

Really? That doesn't seem like much of a point at all to me. A whole lot of abolitionists in the southland, were there? For chrissakes, it was the defining issue of the day, year, decade, century.......this is delusional


If you mean slavery as an economic institution, yes.

If you mean territories becoming new states as slave states to ensure enough votes in Congress to maintain the economic institution, yes.

If you mean territories becoming new states as slave states to ensure enough votes in Congress to block the unfavorable economic legislation the Northern senators were able to pass because they had more seats in Congress, yes.

If you mean the North fought the war to end slavery because it was morally wrong, no. The historical record does not support this conclusion.
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby assateague » Mon Oct 28, 2013 7:18 am

Vincent summed it up better than I have. I agree completely.
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby blackduckdog2 » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:28 am

vincentpa wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
clampdaddy wrote:
assateague wrote:I find it ironic to say that it was about slavery, when slavery existed in the north. Nor did the Emancipation Proclamation free ALL slaves- it only applied to slaves in the South, not slaves in the North. There were more than a couple Northern states where slavery was perfectly ok until AFTER the civil war, when it became law that slaves were free......

Very good point.

Really? That doesn't seem like much of a point at all to me. A whole lot of abolitionists in the southland, were there? For chrissakes, it was the defining issue of the day, year, decade, century.......this is delusional


If you mean slavery as an economic institution, yes.

If you mean territories becoming new states as slave states to ensure enough votes in Congress to maintain the economic institution, yes.

If you mean territories becoming new states as slave states to ensure enough votes in Congress to block the unfavorable economic legislation the Northern senators were able to pass because they had more seats in Congress, yes.

If you mean the North fought the war to end slavery because it was morally wrong, no. The historical record does not support this conclusion.

I do not believe that A, B, and C can be even remotely separated from D. I'd be willing to debate the shifting and proportional influences of the entire extremely volatile mix, but you're gonna have a lot of trouble teasing out the first three quantifiable values from the last one, which was the moral issue of the time, no matter which side of it you came down upon
(note to WTN10....I thought of you when I ended that sentence with a preposition. Sometimes it's just the right thing to do :thumbsup: )
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby vincentpa » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:49 am

Why can't they be separated? I think it entirely possible. slavery may have been the moral issue at the time but people weren't willing to go to war over it, save John Brown and sons. It makes a nice narrative that fits a righteous and romantic version of what we would like to have occurred. Unfortunately, it did not happen that way. We (me included) would like to believe that a large portion of our countryman would have come to the conclusion that a practice as horrible as slavery should be eliminated at all costs, including war if necessary. WE would like to think that these people, our ancestors (historically at least) would have fought against something as evil in nature as slavery. But they didn't. Do you really believe that those Irish that enlisted as they debarked the immigrant boats? If you would have asked any white Union soldier if he were willing to die on behalf of a slave, what do you think his answer would've been? Emphatically, no. This says it all:

If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that.
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby Indaswamp » Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:00 am

vincentpa wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
clampdaddy wrote:
assateague wrote:I find it ironic to say that it was about slavery, when slavery existed in the north. Nor did the Emancipation Proclamation free ALL slaves- it only applied to slaves in the South, not slaves in the North. There were more than a couple Northern states where slavery was perfectly ok until AFTER the civil war, when it became law that slaves were free......

Very good point.

Really? That doesn't seem like much of a point at all to me. A whole lot of abolitionists in the southland, were there? For chrissakes, it was the defining issue of the day, year, decade, century.......this is delusional


If you mean slavery as an economic institution, yes.

If you mean territories becoming new states as slave states to ensure enough votes in Congress to maintain the economic institution, yes.

If you mean territories becoming new states as slave states to ensure enough votes in Congress to block the unfavorable economic legislation the Northern senators were able to pass because they had more seats in Congress, yes.

If you mean the North fought the war to end slavery because it was morally wrong, no. The historical record does not support this conclusion.

very well put Vinny!
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby assateague » Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:25 am

And if you really want to cut to the chase, the war was fought because the North decided they could do what they wanted, and invade the South. The war didn't HAVE to be fought at all- the states had (and have) every right to secede from the Union. So rather than saying it was fought over slavery, it would be more historically accurate to say that it was fought because D.C wasn't getting its way, and threw a temper tantrum. If making it about being on a moral high horse makes the yankees feel better about causing all those hundreds of thousands of deaths, go right ahead and tell yourself that.
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby blackduckdog2 » Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:56 pm

vincentpa wrote:Why can't they be separated? I think it entirely possible. slavery may have been the moral issue at the time but people weren't willing to go to war over it, save John Brown and sons. It makes a nice narrative that fits a righteous and romantic version of what we would like to have occurred. Unfortunately, it did not happen that way. We (me included) would like to believe that a large portion of our countryman would have come to the conclusion that a practice as horrible as slavery should be eliminated at all costs, including war if necessary. WE would like to think that these people, our ancestors (historically at least) would have fought against something as evil in nature as slavery. But they didn't. Do you really believe that those Irish that enlisted as they debarked the immigrant boats? If you would have asked any white Union soldier if he were willing to die on behalf of a slave, what do you think his answer would've been? Emphatically, no. This says it all:

If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that.
-Abraham Lincoln

You can examine them separately all you want, in fact, I think we should. And to a degree, the contingencies upon which they impinge and depend can be treated as if each was a precipitating, causative factor all it's own. But in the end, that's a little like insider baseball, where you examine all the contributing nuances of each pitch of every at bat, while neatly overlooking the fact that you have a pitcher throwing 98mph gas with laser location and filthy movement..........It's a forest-for-the-trees thing, or if you prefer, a nothing's-so-powerful-as-an-idea-whose-time-has-come thing. Look, I wasn't there and I'm no historian (I hold at least the latter of these assertions to be self-evident) but I'm guessing slavery was the topic around a great many more supper tables and whatever they used for water-coolers back then than any of the other subjects being advanced here.
And I have no doubt as to which of the options with which Mr. Lincoln presented himself was his particular favorite
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby assateague » Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:58 pm

If it was about slavery, then why didn't the Union also invade the several northern states where slavery was legal?
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby blackduckdog2 » Mon Oct 28, 2013 3:35 pm

assateague wrote:If it was about slavery, then why didn't the Union also invade the several northern states where slavery was legal?

For the same reason you sometimes sacrifice bunt........but don't get too precisely parallel with that analogy. My position is that by far, the dominant social issue of the day informed virtually every aspect of that conflict in a manner that no other "cause" did
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby clampdaddy » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:26 pm

This has me thinking. In 150 years, what will be said about the middle eastern wars that we have been engaged in over the last couple decades?
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby blackduckdog2 » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:27 pm

clampdaddy wrote:This has me thinking. In 150 years, what will be said about the middle eastern wars that we have been engaged in over the last couple decades?

Well, GW DID refer to the effort as a Crusade, just post 9/11
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby wanapasaki » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:29 pm

clampdaddy wrote:This has me thinking. In 150 years, what will be said about the middle eastern wars that we have been engaged in over the last couple decades?


The US's nose was too big for its own good :lol3:
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby blackduckdog2 » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:54 pm

wanapasaki wrote:
clampdaddy wrote:This has me thinking. In 150 years, what will be said about the middle eastern wars that we have been engaged in over the last couple decades?


The US's nose was too big for its own good :lol3:

The camel's nose?
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby clampdaddy » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:55 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:
clampdaddy wrote:This has me thinking. In 150 years, what will be said about the middle eastern wars that we have been engaged in over the last couple decades?

Well, GW DID refer to the effort as a Crusade, just post 9/11


That's kinda what I mean. Will it have been a string of wars that started because Saddam invaded Kuwait, a holy war masked as a war to free oppressed people, a war for oil, an attempt to hunt down and crush a terrorist movement? Only time will tell.
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby assateague » Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:37 pm

Depends on who wins. And I suspect, based on our attitude and prevailing winds, that it will be written in Arabic.
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby boney fingers » Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:01 am

When the south wrote its constitution, they based it on the US constitution; what were the major differences?
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby wanapasaki » Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:08 am

:huh:
boney fingers wrote:When the south wrote its constitution, they based it on the US constitution; what were the major differences?
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby vincentpa » Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:39 am

blackduckdog2 wrote:
vincentpa wrote:Why can't they be separated? I think it entirely possible. slavery may have been the moral issue at the time but people weren't willing to go to war over it, save John Brown and sons. It makes a nice narrative that fits a righteous and romantic version of what we would like to have occurred. Unfortunately, it did not happen that way. We (me included) would like to believe that a large portion of our countryman would have come to the conclusion that a practice as horrible as slavery should be eliminated at all costs, including war if necessary. WE would like to think that these people, our ancestors (historically at least) would have fought against something as evil in nature as slavery. But they didn't. Do you really believe that those Irish that enlisted as they debarked the immigrant boats? If you would have asked any white Union soldier if he were willing to die on behalf of a slave, what do you think his answer would've been? Emphatically, no. This says it all:

If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that.
-Abraham Lincoln

You can examine them separately all you want, in fact, I think we should. And to a degree, the contingencies upon which they impinge and depend can be treated as if each was a precipitating, causative factor all it's own. But in the end, that's a little like insider baseball, where you examine all the contributing nuances of each pitch of every at bat, while neatly overlooking the fact that you have a pitcher throwing 98mph gas with laser location and filthy movement..........It's a forest-for-the-trees thing, or if you prefer, a nothing's-so-powerful-as-an-idea-whose-time-has-come thing. Look, I wasn't there and I'm no historian (I hold at least the latter of these assertions to be self-evident) but I'm guessing slavery was the topic around a great many more supper tables and whatever they used for water-coolers back then than any of the other subjects being advanced here.
And I have no doubt as to which of the options with which Mr. Lincoln presented himself was his particular favorite



Ah, the wordsmith at work. As I've stated before, I believe you are projecting yourself onto those people living in those times. The North only went to war after a large group of treasonous rebels fired on Fort Sumter and the southern states seceded from the union. Northerners wanted nothing to do with going to war. Most northern (autocorrect is changing northern to northem for some strange reason) states had abolished slavery but that doesn't mean that northerners held blacks in high regard. They certainly would never have died for a black man in those days. It's how we would've wanted it to be. It makes a better story that is more soothing to our sensibilities about our troubled past. It makes it easier to cope and not justify but rectify. We say to ourselves that we were bad because we practiced slavery. But, at least we came to our senses and fought a war to eliminate the practice; the metaphorical good triumphing over evil. The historical record just doesn't support this.
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby aunt betty » Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:02 am

The civil war was about each state's right to make its own laws.
The states lost...
However go to California or Colorado and they write their own laws. The issue of state's rights will come up again.
Repeating...the civil war was not about slavery but was about each state's right to choose.

The rebel flag means different things to each individual person. To me, it means REBEL. Nothing else.
We're all rebels inside. Its AMERICAN to be rebelious.
Get over your shock and anger at seeing a flag. It means something bad...to YOU.

I had most of my kin fight on the losing side and yet am still proud to be a REBEL.
Leave my flag alone. !!!
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby ohioboy » Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:37 am

assateague wrote:Depends on who wins. And I suspect, based on our attitude and prevailing winds, that it will be written in Arabic.


to the winner the spoils..... thus the "northern civil war" textbooks i teach from.
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby SpinnerMan » Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:44 am

vincentpa wrote:Most northern (autocorrect is changing northern to northem for some strange reason) states had abolished slavery but that doesn't mean that northerners held blacks in high regard. They certainly would never have died for a black man in those days.
Not just in those days. Look at the minorities in northern cities today. They are mostly political cannon fodder. You think somebody would risk their life for them if they won't fight for better law enforcement, better education, against a self-destructive culture, etc. The community destroyers would never risk a well-educated, low crime, prosperous community. They would lose all their power and influence.

Given that the north was not fighting to free the negro slave, the south was not fighting to keep the negro slave.

It's like claiming war against Germany was to save the Jews. It was just a byproduct. Would the U.S. have gone to war if Germany was simply committing genocide in its own territory? :no: The north would have never gone to war with the south if the only issue were slavery. No way. No how. There is zero chance that would have got the support needed. Conversely, the south would have fought to preserve slavery because it was an integral part of the economy. It was not separable from all the issues. If it were, the north would have never sacrificed the lives they did just to free the negro slaves. Even today, they turn a blind eye to the horrible suffering in the black community for political expediency. I don't believe they would do that today.
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby Slack Tide » Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:47 am

cartervj wrote:
slowshooter wrote:http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/25/opinion/obeidallah-confederate-flag/index.html
People that are dumb. Or people that don't want to be citizens of the USA.
Dumb is incurable. But if you hate the USA, flights leaving the country happen every few minutes.

does that make the founding of this Country a problem for ya? :lol3:


Not to hijack the thread but.....that's a damn nice snow mount you have there on your avatar
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Re: Who flies this flag?

Postby ScaupHunter » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:47 pm

I have always found the subjective interpretation of the Civil War as a War of northern agression, and a war over slavery to be incredibly short sighted. Particularly since hindsight should be 20 / 20. The war was started by the southern states at Ft. Sumpter. The North not only did not want a war, they got battered pretty badly for quite a while. Slavery was not this issue dujour during that time. It was a sticking point for some folks, but not most. The Emancipation Proclamation changed all of that in the national psyche.
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