Public Schools in the USA

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Public Schools in the USA

Postby troutman561 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:48 pm

Political correctness has ruined our school system just as it is ruining many other things. No doubt we are gonna be ranked poorly when we constantly cater to the lowest common denominator.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby La. Hunter » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:50 pm

troutman561 wrote:Political correctness has ruined our school system just as it is ruining many other things.


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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby AKWoody » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:59 pm

Gunnysway wrote:http://www.nea.org/home/38465.htm



So using the data provided in the link, Alaska is #10 in the USA in average teacher salary. 59K. Keep in mind that s a state average.... It includes places where salaries have to be high to attract anyone, because the living conditions are less than staellar. My wife is almost finished with her masters degree, and had a decade of experiene. Shes making less thatn the average. I assure you.

I'd be willing to bet that if you factor in the cost of living to the top 10 places Alaska would be #2 behind Hawaii. In that case teachers here are making significantly less that their lower 48 counterparts.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby Cujo1 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:15 pm

assateague wrote:I promise I'm not trying to provoke you. Teachers cannot be provoked over anything aside from their pay. Everything else is "the parent's fault".

Your opinion doesn't count. If you have never been a teacher or taught in a classroom, you don't know crap about it.
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bighop wrote:Destined to be a child of the system now. Bounced around from house to house, abused, mistreated, earning his way on the streets. There's probably an expensive crack habit and a pair of those hind-leg wheels in his near futre.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby assateague » Wed Dec 04, 2013 7:31 pm

Precisely. Just ask them- they'll tell you.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby Boatman » Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:08 pm

OGblackcloud wrote:
Boatman wrote:The U.S. is ranked 17th in education. Who is to blame for this,the kids?

The parents ! A kids education starts in the home .


Exactly why we homeschool. Got 1 in collage on the deans list.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby bluegoose18 » Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:05 pm

Politically correct they have become is an understatement! It's f-ING ridiculous and the teachers push the chit onto the kids. Like its been said before cut the special Ed teachers and all the bs classes and drill the core subjects into there heads both the teachers and the students. For crying out loud back when I went to school if you so much as back talked to the teachers they would just crack ya with a ruler or text book and then kick ya right in the ass all the to the office. Once there the vice principle would crack ya in the head and then dad would also when ya got home: The meaning of the word respect is not taught anymore in the USA. What is taught is everyone gets a trophy. I blame this on the teachers!!!! Oh and that burger flipping thing had me lol so hard I all most chit myself. Try this next time you are at the local store and a high schooler is working the till. Lets say you have a bill for $16.45 you hand them $21.50 watch the look on there face while they try to figure out how to make change for it!!!!!
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby vincentpa » Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:35 am

AKWoody wrote:Let the conservative rhetoric begin...

I can hear it now teacher are overpaid.... Teachers are horrible... I should get a subsidy to homeschool my kid at everyones expense...

I'm married to a teacher. The fact is, is that there are some real crappy ones, but they are in the 2% for sure. My wife(and a lot of her colleauges) put in well over 12 hour days, some on their weekends, and spend a lot of their own money so kids can go on the field trips and other crap like that. So dont tell me that teacher make too much money. That is a load of bullshit.

Are there loopholes.. YES, and there are certainly places that can cut some fat. But lay off the teachers and there pay.


I'll call BS on that. Cry me a river. You think everyone on this board doesn't know teachers or have teachers as friends. One of my teacher friends proudly says "only a sucker workds 12 months out of the year."

$60k a year. That's all? Our teachers are paid much better than that. And that's a sin.

Those that can't do teach.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby Slack Tide » Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:47 am

Boatman wrote:The U.S. is ranked 17th in education. Who is to blame for this,the kids?


Keep in mind that by the time you subtract Military Dictatorships, Oppressive Regimes and Communist countries from that list, you are left with very wealthy, homogenous, Scandinavian nations...
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:57 am

AKWoody wrote:I can hear it now teacher are overpaid....
How do you determine the fair market rate for any person you hire? There is actual objective data for this because there are a lot of private schools that can pay fair market rates and those rates are far below the monopoly rates paid in public schools. This is not an opinion. This is a fact.

Price fixing ALWAYS leads to lower quality. It's been tried in a million forms and it never works as well as freedom.

AKWoody wrote:This is the mindset that kills me. If you think you can do a better job, do it. Then the future generations can be **** retards!

That's the problem. In many places the kids that get a diploma are **** retards. My brother's first wife had a high school diploma and was functionally illiterate. Now she is the rare exception that she went to adult education and learned to read, something that the public teachers in K-12 had failed to do, but still committed professional fraud by passing her grade after grade and ultimately certified that she had met the minimum requirement for graduation. Had my parents not noticed that she couldn't read the child's books to my young cousins, she would have went through life without being able to read at early grade school level.

Gunnysway wrote:The influential Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) has just released its much-awaited triennial study of global education systems, and once again, the U.S. earns bad grades. According to the study, American 15 year-olds tested were average in reading and science skills, below-average in math.

"It is not very different from where we found the U.S. in the past," OECD education chief Andreas Schleicher told Fox News, "but it's not very good either."

Overall, according to the U.S. Department of Education, American students' rankings in math have slipped from 24th to 29th compared to the last test in 2010. In science, they've gone from 19th to 22nd, and from 10th to 20th in reading.

That drop is mostly due to surging performance from regions abroad, especially Asia. China, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore are all ahead of the U.S., as are European countries like Poland, Finland and Holland, as well as neighbor Canada and Australia.

I read this, but it sounds like (meaning I don't know) that there is a major fatal flaw in this study. It doesn't include kids that are not in school. If nearly 100% of the kids are in school and are tested, you will get a much lower result than if only 50% of the kids are in school and are mostly the best and brightest.

Also, the U.S. includes all the illegal aliens, most of which are from near third world conditions.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby Slack Tide » Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:11 am

Even calling it "Education in America" is off to a wrong start. American is WAY to diverse to try to address this issue as a 'one size fits all'..
Shrink it was down and just look at where I live. There is obscene wealth on the North Shore of Long Island where the public schools may as well be private academies. The kids are very well cared for, well traveled, well spoken, tons of life experience and all go on to good schools...
In other areas of Long Island, you have terrible violence and poverty and schools that are run like jails...why? because they are..they are set in terrible towns with gang violence, emergency housing, drug problems and great neglect. The state has taken them over, set in new Supt's and changed the names...but the kids flowing through that system are the same, as are the results..

The people in the good districts are happy. Why? Because the schools are facilitating their kids' education in a safe, clean and constructive environment.
The people in the bad districts are pissed because they will never blame themselves, but truly..what is a teacher to do in that environment? Kids are absent constantly, pregnant in 7th grade, transfer in...transfer out.....belligerent...fights all the time...lock downs...etc...Joe Clark? Are you going to give me some anomaly about some ONE school in some ONE place where all the kids rose up like a Phoenix despite their....blah....blah...blah.....great..but it's an anomaly..

I find it so ironic that so many of you are very educated and successful, but claim that there is not ONE teacher who created that in you...like teachers were a mere fountain that you simply drank from..

The absolute bottom line is this..
There are no doubt poor teachers out there...and there is no doubt waste..as in any field and any organization..
But teaching is a pie with many parts and teachers are but one of those parts...I don't claim to take 100% credit for my students' successes and certainly don't expect to take 100% blame for their failures..

I play the hand I'm dealt and the parents created the deck..
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby ScaupHunter » Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:58 am

Cujo1 wrote:
assateague wrote:I promise I'm not trying to provoke you. Teachers cannot be provoked over anything aside from their pay. Everything else is "the parent's fault".

Your opinion doesn't count. If you have never been a teacher or taught in a classroom, you don't know crap about it.


I have some news for you. We are all teachers. If you have ever raised children you are a teacher. If you have ever trained a hunting dog you are a teacher. If you have ever mentored a child in any way, you are a teacher. Give me the fiscal reigns and I will chop 5 million out of that budget with no problem at all. There is a lovely list of classes and things earlier in this thread that would be gone from the currriculum immediately. I would also if given the power impliment a policy that you A. Meet all standards in testing or fail and repeat the year. B. Fail to get a High School Diploma and never see government aid of any kind.

If you think teachers are overworked and underpaid your wrong. Teachers in my area often make over $60,000 a year. It is called union representation there bubba. Teaching is not a tough job. I don't remember any of my teachers complaining about their jobs when I was a kid. They loved the work, enjoyed the kids and the challenge of getting them to learn, and never complained about their pay. They always loved talking about those two and three month vacations every summer.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:05 am

Slack Tide wrote:I find it so ironic that so many of you are very educated and successful, but claim that there is not ONE teacher who created that in you...like teachers were a mere fountain that you simply drank from..
Maybe that should tell you something that a bunch of very educated people do NOT see it that way. I know in my case the teachers played almost no role in the success of the students. People like me with good parents that cared and high IQs did well and those with lousy parents and low IQs did lousy. It was absolutely a fountain where those that availed themselves of the opportunity did well and those that chose not to were not forced to and were not influenced to do so by their teachers. I can't think of one kid where the education was the predominate factor in determining their success. I'm sure out of the hundreds there are a couple anomolies, but I can't think of any.

Conversely, my father as a little league baseball coach had more influence on kids lives than any I have ever seen among the teachers in my school. He took the troublemakers that the other coaches did not want. He was tough, but fair, and didn't take their crap and these kids that had never seen that appreciated it. Had they got that from K-12, it really could have changed their lives. This really hit me when I was out at a prom party drinking and I ran into some of these guys and they start asking about my Dad and it was clear how much respect they had for him and everything. He got the best out of them, but later in life when other coaches and teachers were not tough and fair and often just plain scared of them, it brought out the worst.

One kid in particular, who could have gotten college scholarships and had a good life became a big baby because the coaches pandered to him and treated him like a baby. During high school football, he quit and they begged him to come back, and it was pathetic. On the other hand, when he was on my Dad's team, he was hands down the best player in the entire league, and he started screwing off in the middle of a game. My Dad walked on the field order him in the dugout and put the worst player on the bench in for him. He like the other punks learned to behave and knew if they did they would be treated fairly. He ultimately quit football and all sports and ended up in juvenile hall and luckily not worse since another acquaintance told me about the time they were robbing a place and he pulled a gun on someone and then talked about how he could have shot them. Ironically, another neighbor of mine was in juvenile hall at the same time and said the only thing that kept him safe was because they were in at the same time and everybody feared this guy, so he was safe.

My point being that yes, I absolutely think it could changed kids lives, but it's not going to be one person. It has to start early and be sustained through out to really change the course of kids lives. In hindsight, the only K-12 teacher that tried to help make me a better student was the one I thought was mean and nobody liked her. She was right and I was a dumbass kid, but I didn't see it that way at the time and none of the other teachers along the way were tough on me, which I would have benefited from.

I seriously think 90% of my teachers were quite poor and far under performed what should be expected from a teacher. My guess is that in the best schools it is not any different. The only different is that the parents have chosen to live in communities with other like-minded parents and that is the reason for the vast majority of what seems like better performance by the teachers. If you are a coach and have a bunch of Michael Jordan's you are going to seem like the best even if you are among the worst.

Have you read the Bell Curve. I just picked it up recently and it addresses a lot of this and what I have read so far (~70 pages) is spot on with my life's experience.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby assateague » Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:07 am

He was being sarcastic.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby Slack Tide » Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:47 am

SpinnerMan wrote:
Slack Tide wrote:I find it so ironic that so many of you are very educated and successful, but claim that there is not ONE teacher who created that in you...like teachers were a mere fountain that you simply drank from..
those that chose not to were not forced to and were not influenced to do so by their teachers.
The problem here and now is that we are not allowed anymore to allow people to fail...remember, kids fail and it's our fault

He took the troublemakers that the other coaches did not want.
In this example, at least the kids were there because they loved baseball and wanted to play....not the case in class all the time


My point being that yes, I absolutely think it could changed kids lives, but it's not going to be one person.
Like I said....

I seriously think 90% of my teachers were quite poor and far under performed what should be expected from a teacher.
It's truly not like that anymore...way to much competition, way to many active parents to tolerate Mr. Schmuck the Social Studies teacher who hands out dittos and shows videos all day..

Have you read the Bell Curve. I just picked it up recently and it addresses a lot of this and what I have read so far (~70 pages) is spot on with my life's experience.

I will find it...thanks
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:58 am

Slack Tide wrote:I seriously think 90% of my teachers were quite poor and far under performed what should be expected from a teacher.
It's truly not like that anymore...way to much competition, way to many active parents to tolerate Mr. Schmuck the Social Studies teacher who hands out dittos and shows videos all day..

Actually, the school district that I went to is far worse than when I was there.

I don't know where you are that there is competition, but it is a closed shop in virtually every place I am familiar. Nepotism and connections is a strong factor in hiring and as far as retention, just don't quit and you will never lose your job.

Although, my expectation are high because I think education is that important.

Slack Tide wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:those that chose not to were not forced to and were not influenced to do so by their teachers.
The problem here and now is that we are not allowed anymore to allow people to fail...remember, kids fail and it's our fault
No, you can allow them to fail. You just can't do anything about it but commit professional fraud and give them a passing grade. They failed. They are just left clueless and will remain that way as a result.

If I was being forced to commit professional fraud, first I would not do it, but the biggest thing is what the hell is the point of a union? If you care about your professional integrity, how can you (not you specifically, but all that do) give a passing grade to someone that has not earned it?

This really is the corrupting of society that I am talking about. People simply accept that this corruption is just how things are done and don't feel like they are doing anything wrong when they do it themselves and they certainly don't fight the corruption.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby Slack Tide » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:23 am

Spin...
I didn't want to quote another time, it was getting too big...

As for "allowing or not allowing" them to fail...
Here is a trip for you:
If I have a kid who got a 42 in my class. The lowest grade available on the slide scale is a 55...so the kid technically failed, but didn't feel so bad about it.. You cannot get off the screen and move on to the next kid in the queue until you give him a grade and it simply will not accept anything lower than a 55...
And if/when a kid fails a class...it is the teacher who must fill out a booklet of questions asking for evidence of what you did to prevent that failure. Did you tutor him? How many times did you call home? What were the results of those calls? Did you provide him with support material to enhance the subject, please supply copies of those materials.....on and on....if he fails...he must fail it for the year to go to summer school...he must fail 3 of the 4 classes to be retained and may not be retained more than twice...
Where do these rules come from? The Board of Ed...Who is the Board of Ed? The parents..

There is very little point to a union anymore...which is why I laugh at the suggestion that is so often made that the unions have a strangle hold on "progress"....
The State basically wants what they want and imposes it by saying "hey, do it or not, that's fine, but you're not getting any funding if you don't."
The LOCAL union (a bunch of ladies and librarians) will negotiate the nuances of a local contract...things like how many sick days roll over into a retirement
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:48 am

Slack Tide wrote:If I have a kid who got a 42 in my class. The lowest grade available on the slide scale is a 55...so the kid technically failed, but didn't feel so bad about it.. You cannot get off the screen and move on to the next kid in the queue until you give him a grade and it simply will not accept anything lower than a 55...

This should be an outrage. You and your fellow teachers should not accept being forced to commit professional fraud.

Slack Tide wrote:Where do these rules come from? The Board of Ed...Who is the Board of Ed? The parents..
Not where I am from. The Board of Ed. is populated by people connected to the teachers union. The union is organized and can get out the vote for the people they want on the board. The parents are disorganized and are not as effective at getting people elected.

This is the difficulty that you pointed out earlier. There is such huge variation from place to place. However, even when there was no formalized de facto prohibition on failure, kids were passed along because the teachers did not want the hassle. My brother's first wife could have been failed by the teachers. They just didn't do it. That's why she had a high school diploma that she could not read.

Slack Tide wrote:There is very little point to a union anymore...which is why I laugh at the suggestion that is so often made that the unions have a strangle hold on "progress"....

Look at what the unions are doing at Walmart. You could protest and demand this fraud stop. You could do so many things, but all you do is

Slack Tide wrote:negotiate the nuances of a local contract...things like how many sick days roll over into a retirement
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby Slack Tide » Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:46 pm

Now I know why your feelings about schools and unions are the way they are...
That is NOTHING like how it is here...
The union, in NO way, negotiates or has a voice in the curriculum, grading policy, testing or anything else like that. As teachers in a dept we can adopt books we'd prefer, order the units in a way that we feel compliment each other best etc....but dictate to the district a grading, passing, failing, graduating policy?? That would be like your employee trying to dictate to you what should be on the menu at your restaurant...or how much to charge, or how big a portion should be...

One argument at a time here...at least now I hope you realize that there are VAST differences between all schools and the "reality" that you see in your own community is not what it may be right down the road.

And as for 42 vs..55....it's not a tax return...the kid still failed....I don't care about this...
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby assateague » Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:55 pm

Slack Tide wrote:Spin...
I didn't want to quote another time, it was getting too big...

As for "allowing or not allowing" them to fail...
Here is a trip for you:
If I have a kid who got a 42 in my class. The lowest grade available on the slide scale is a 55...so the kid technically failed, but didn't feel so bad about it.. You cannot get off the screen and move on to the next kid in the queue until you give him a grade and it simply will not accept anything lower than a 55...
And if/when a kid fails a class...it is the teacher who must fill out a booklet of questions asking for evidence of what you did to prevent that failure. Did you tutor him? How many times did you call home? What were the results of those calls? Did you provide him with support material to enhance the subject, please supply copies of those materials.....on and on....if he fails...he must fail it for the year to go to summer school...he must fail 3 of the 4 classes to be retained and may not be retained more than twice...
Where do these rules come from? The Board of Ed...Who is the Board of Ed? The parents..

There is very little point to a union anymore...which is why I laugh at the suggestion that is so often made that the unions have a strangle hold on "progress"....
The State basically wants what they want and imposes it by saying "hey, do it or not, that's fine, but you're not getting any funding if you don't."
The LOCAL union (a bunch of ladies and librarians) will negotiate the nuances of a local contract...things like how many sick days roll over into a retirement



Why don't teachers threaten to go on strike over stuff like this? Why don't they threaten to go on strike over a piss-poor curriculum? I have asked these questions before, and I'm sure I'll ask them again. When all anyone sees are teachers going on strike over their own benefits and compensation, it's awful tough to sympathize with those who say "we don't like it, either, but there's nothing we can do". It seems like there's damn sure "something you can do" when it comes to pay or benefits.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby assateague » Thu Dec 05, 2013 12:56 pm

Slack Tide wrote:
And as for 42 vs..55....it's not a tax return...the kid still failed....I don't care about this...



Will it let you enter a 100 instead of a 98? Why? "The kid still got an A". The fact that you don't care about it is simply laziness.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby Slack Tide » Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:32 pm

assateague wrote:Why don't teachers threaten to go on strike over stuff like this? Why don't they threaten to go on strike over a piss-poor curriculum?


I'm lucky that I like my curriculum and happy to have a hand in it...
You guys need to understand the perimeters of the union...we are the laborers and they are the boss...We can argue working conditions etc,but it is their building...
My purpose for sharing this is not to create a debate on teaching, but to explain more that the unions are not these power houses that yo may think....
Now the target of the conversation is moving....
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby Slack Tide » Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:34 pm

assateague wrote:
Slack Tide wrote:And as for 42 vs..55....it's not a tax return...the kid still failed....I don't care about this...

Will it let you enter a 100 instead of a 98? Why? "The kid still got an A". The fact that you don't care about it is simply laziness.


I don't see it as lazy at all. I am navigating within the situation I am in. I'd certainly prefer the kid got the crappy grade for sure. But it's not part of the deal...remember....the parents run the district....
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:35 pm

Slack Tide wrote:The union, in NO way, negotiates or has a voice in the curriculum, grading policy, testing or anything else like that.
Everybody has a voice if they choose to use it. Especially an organized group of professionals.

I have a voice in my profession. Every professional does. Do they have the final word? No, but they for damn sure have a voice and a very loud one if they choose to use it.

When I hear this. This is what I hear. Teachers are not professionals. They are just labor following orders like a janitor. And I really believe that is the pervasive mindset. They want the pay of a professional and the responsibility of labor.

Your union does what the members want and the members clearly don't want it to have a voice in these things. The members want it to negotiate more pay and less work like every labor union since the issues of workplace safety have largely been addressed long ago.

Slack Tide wrote:That would be like your employee trying to dictate to you what should be on the menu at your restaurant...or how much to charge, or how big a portion should be...
If you are a professional, you do not allow your employer to dictate professional standards to you. It is a completely different mindset. A professional does not do substandard work at the request of his employer. A professional is in ethical and possibly legal jeopardy if he does substandard work. If a professional certifies that something has passed and he knows that in fact it had failed, he should lose his professional license or even just falsifying records in any way as you said you are forced to do routinely. For teachers, it is normal operating procedure.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby AKWoody » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:44 pm

vincentpa wrote:
AKWoody wrote:Let the conservative rhetoric begin...

I can hear it now teacher are overpaid.... Teachers are horrible... I should get a subsidy to homeschool my kid at everyones expense...

I'm married to a teacher. The fact is, is that there are some real crappy ones, but they are in the 2% for sure. My wife(and a lot of her colleauges) put in well over 12 hour days, some on their weekends, and spend a lot of their own money so kids can go on the field trips and other crap like that. So dont tell me that teacher make too much money. That is a load of bullshit.

Are there loopholes.. YES, and there are certainly places that can cut some fat. But lay off the teachers and there pay.


I'll call BS on that. Cry me a river. You think everyone on this board doesn't know teachers or have teachers as friends. One of my teacher friends proudly says "only a sucker workds 12 months out of the year."

$60k a year. That's all? Our teachers are paid much better than that. And that's a sin.

Those that can't do teach.



And those that cant teach or do spend their timne on an internet forum with 7,000 plus posts. Give me a damn break...

And where the **** does that saying come from anyway? Those that cant do teach? Probably some tea bagger pandering for votes. Im out of this discussion. You guys clearly are all bustin a nut waiting to back each other up. :fingerhead:

Oh, and if you are all products of the public school system, you're all **** hypocrites..
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