Public Schools in the USA

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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby ScaupHunter » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:01 pm

Quitter! :lol3: :lol3: :lol3:

The school system of America is an epic failure. No on is a hypocrite when they look at a failed system, call BS, and call your out for your BS! That is simply being a good citizen and being willing to call a spade, a spade.

I am with Spinner on this. Teachers want all the credibility of degrees and licensing with none of the responsiblities there of. In Engineering, Law, Medicine, etc... a professional is held to a set and defined standard. There are boards that review challenges, complaints, and cases against those same professionals. The license holder can loose their license to practice in their profession and that means they can no longer make a living at it.

Any profession that fails to hold it's members to a standards and enforces that standard is no profession at all. It is just a bunch of laborers posing as professionals. The people in that field should be paid exactly as what they are. Laborers and nothing more.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:16 pm

AKWoody wrote:And where the **** does that saying come from anyway? Those that cant do teach? Probably some tea bagger pandering for votes.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby Rat Creek » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:26 pm

Reality and Myths about success in school by Rat Creek

Students: Unfortunately or fortunately (depending on where you land) intelligence is inherited. A good teacher can make good students soar and poor students achieve. The brains and baggage a student brings to school is just part of the package.

Parents: This is the number one factor. Not only for the gene pool, but involved parents (not parent) who value education will make sure their kid learns whether the teacher helps in the process or not. I live in a homogeneous area. There is diversity of income, culture and ethnicity, but not in family structure. Almost all homes have two parents and at least one college degree. For back to school night or parent conference, you will park several blocks away because EVERY parent will be there. My neighbor who teaches in a neighboring district tells me she sits at her desk and grades papers on parent conference night because no one shows up. Lastly, I work in the education space and a researcher friend of mine always says – look at the education level of a kid’s mother and you will see the baseline. If she is a HS grad, the kid will do at least that well. Mom dropped out at Grade 8, it does not look so good for junior.

Teachers: I would say they follow about any other bell curve, but with a much larger tail to the left. There are awesome teachers out there, but they are far outnumbered by mediocre and poor teachers. Caring about kids is not enough. It is a profession like any other where the gifted teachers rock. The downside is teachers are rarely fired when they suck at their jobs. Really hurts the reputation of the true rock star teachers. The unions have made this much worse by protecting people who are probably good people, but just in the wrong profession. As for pay, teachers are paid a very fair wage. If they were not, they would do something else. Same goes for me in my job. If I did not think it was enough, I would do something else. It is not slavery after all.

Climate: We have all walked into schools where you know right way that it is a top notch place and it has nothing to do with fancy facilities. A strong building leader sets the tone. In our local district, the HS with arguably the toughest demographic is the top academic HS in the district and also has very good sports teams. The building just has an attitude of achievement that has been fostered by a strong principal who recruits and keeps strong teachers. And we have all been in the schools that are just the opposite. You walk in and feel the negative vibe, as do the staff and students who spend their days there. Many private schools have crappy buildings and facilities, but when you walk in the door, you immediately see how positively the people behave and interact. Climate matters.

Money: This almost never matters, but it is so easy to focus on. The worst districts in the country have the most money and pay the highest wages. An argument could be made that more money actually has a negative impact on education, but that is just based upon the approach of throwing money at a problem rather than throwing awesome administrators and teachers at the problem. People need to be paid and all that, but money is not the problem. Budgets in education have outpaced inflation forever. It is a non-issue.

By the way, I am convinced my kids who are either in college or recently graduates received a much better education than I did. I attribute it to No Child Left Behind because for the first time in my lifetime, schools and teachers had accountability for outcomes, not the crap about continuing credits or years on the job which mean nothing.

And that’s all I have to say about that.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby send the dog » Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:24 pm

According to my numbers: If you were to accept an average teacher's salary at $50,000.00 a year, and the average work year for a teacher would be 180 days (weekends, vacations, summers off...). that computes to $277.78 per working day. And, i'm feeling generous here, so i'll consider it to be a 10 hour work day, that computes to $27.78 per hour (which does not include paid time off, insurance, or whatever else teachers get). Soooo, tell me again, what the $%&# is wrong with that salary????
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby assateague » Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:00 pm

AKWoody wrote:
vincentpa wrote:
AKWoody wrote:Let the conservative rhetoric begin...

I can hear it now teacher are overpaid.... Teachers are horrible... I should get a subsidy to homeschool my kid at everyones expense...

I'm married to a teacher. The fact is, is that there are some real crappy ones, but they are in the 2% for sure. My wife(and a lot of her colleauges) put in well over 12 hour days, some on their weekends, and spend a lot of their own money so kids can go on the field trips and other crap like that. So dont tell me that teacher make too much money. That is a load of bullshit.

Are there loopholes.. YES, and there are certainly places that can cut some fat. But lay off the teachers and there pay.


I'll call BS on that. Cry me a river. You think everyone on this board doesn't know teachers or have teachers as friends. One of my teacher friends proudly says "only a sucker workds 12 months out of the year."

$60k a year. That's all? Our teachers are paid much better than that. And that's a sin.

Those that can't do teach.



And those that cant teach or do spend their timne on an internet forum with 7,000 plus posts. Give me a damn break...

And where the **** does that saying come from anyway? Those that cant do teach? Probably some tea bagger pandering for votes. Im out of this discussion. You guys clearly are all bustin a nut waiting to back each other up. :fingerhead:

Oh, and if you are all products of the public school system, you're all **** hypocrites..



Spoken like a true educator. "If you don't agree with me, you are a fuckhead". Nice. I'm sure you're a fine teacher, as well.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby assateague » Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:47 pm

Slack Tide wrote:
assateague wrote:
Slack Tide wrote:And as for 42 vs..55....it's not a tax return...the kid still failed....I don't care about this...

Will it let you enter a 100 instead of a 98? Why? "The kid still got an A". The fact that you don't care about it is simply laziness.


I don't see it as lazy at all. I am navigating within the situation I am in. I'd certainly prefer the kid got the crappy grade for sure. But it's not part of the deal...remember....the parents run the district....



The more I think about this, the more it bothers me. If you can earn a 100%, then you should damn well be able to "earn" a 30%. Cutting the scale off at 55% and saying "who cares? He still got an F" is not the least bit different than cutting the scale off at 98% and saying "who cares? He still got an A". And that's messed up.

Here's an example. Let's say homework and class work is 50% of the final grade, and the other 50% is a final exam. Kid turns in zero homework and zero class work, and gets a 100% on the final. Under your system, he has a 55% and a 100%, giving him a passing C+. Under a normal system, he has a 0% and a 100%, giving him a failing F.

Please, tell me how your system is "right".
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby Slack Tide » Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:11 am

I completely agree with your idea of accountability Asst...so don't think it's apathy or laziness at all. It's important to know that I am talking about 6th ELA here too. It is for the final grade window on the system only....not each and every quiz and test as you go through the semester...so it tabulates and averages along the way as you enter ANY grade....and each grade is weighted...so pop spelling quizzes are less of a percentage than a project or long essay. When it's all said and done the options for a final grade for the semester are 55, then 65.66.67.68.69........and up...
My purpose for sharing this was to shed light on how the parents have more power than the union to dispel that concept (at least in the districts where I am)....now the new argument becomes "why don't I stand up and do something about i?"
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby Slack Tide » Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:20 am

How about this:
Threads like these launch with the presumption that schools are failing and the entire theme becomes about why they are failing..
If I started a thread about how "police in America" are this....or that...I'd be met with all kinds of resistance like "how could you possibly know how EVERY police department in America blah blah..." and you'd be right..
I would be commenting on MY perception of police in America..the same way that these threads presume that local observations are national realities..
It's a massive generalization that has become fashionable to join in on..
You can't have it both ways...you want to compare us to the Chinese who are in school 7 days a week all year long...IF they do anything else, they play the cello...
But you want to have your kid in 4 sports, 2 travel teams (at 9 years old)...take him out of school to go on vacation and yell at ME when I confiscate his cell phone for taking pictures in the bathroom??
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby SpinnerMan » Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:32 am

There was a first person that encountered this. Right then and there, they should have said no. It's a matter of professional integrity. I do some unbelievably stupid crap. Hey I work for the government. This year we are going to do some academic exercises. The initial proposal of what we were going to analyze was what if we shutdown all the existing power plants and replaced them with "better" ones as soon as possible. I told my boss I will not even do that academic exercise. It's the don't worry about the price tag mentality. A better way to word the scenario is, what if the government orders the destruction of well over $100B in private property.

My other mission is to try and prevent the U.S. from ever building a plant to recycle plutonium in the existing reactors. Of course, that would only destroy $5B - $20B worth of wealth, which Congress does that almost daily.

It's a slow gradual acceptance of stupidity. It's the frog in the pot problem and we end up with a mess and everybody feels like they should accept it because it feels like that is how it always has been. We need to change it.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby vincentpa » Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:39 am

AKWoody wrote:

And those that cant teach or do spend their timne on an internet forum with 7,000 plus posts. Give me a damn break...


People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. Why are you on the internet forum today?

Let me be perfectly clear. I have no respect for you or your pseudo profession. Your job is a job any monkey can do. Most just choose to do other things, not because teaching is hard but because they just don't want to do it. That is not a reflection of the difficulty of your job. It is not a reflection of special skills required that most don't have the ability to acquire. It is only reflection of a job most would find unappealing.

AKWoody wrote:And where the **** does that saying come from anyway? Those that cant do teach? Probably some tea bagger pandering for votes.


It's a quote that recognizes that teaching doesn't require the skills to be successful in the field they actually teach. It's a quote that recognizes that anyone can be a teacher. It is not a difficult job. It doesn't require a skill set unavailable to general public. Translated: Teaching is a mundane ordinary job and not a profession that any average Joe could accomplish.

AKWoody wrote:Im out of this discussion. You guys clearly are all bustin a nut waiting to back each other up. :fingerhead:


You're a coward that is far out of his league in this venue. You should leave to spare yourself anymore embarrassment.

AKWoody wrote:Oh, and if you are all products of the public school system, you're all **** hypocrites..


This is stunning logic. You are gifted.

Your arrogance is on display for us all. Your statement suggests you and every other teacher are responsible for the future successes of your students. You do think highly of your own skills.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby Slack Tide » Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:42 am

SpinnerMan wrote:We need to change it.

You are correct but there is a huge difference between the in-class instruction and the administration of the building..you are talking more about policy and I am focusing more on curriculum and instruction.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby Slack Tide » Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:53 am

vincentpa wrote: I have no respect for you or your pseudo profession. Your job is a job any monkey can do.


Wow...that's harsh...what a weird thing to say Vin...
Were you home schooled, then internet degree, then independently wealthy?
One good thing that came out of this thread was (finally) a realization (by many) that the end product of a young adult is a joint effort of many people...the individual themselves, the family, the schools, the community etc.. even if that end result is poor...
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby boney fingers » Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:07 am

Most of my college professors had failed in the field that they were teaching. We need more privatization of education; I pay 4000 dollars (total) a year for 4 children and my children are as bright or brighter than their cousins that go to public school (they don't have multimillion dollar sports complexes though).
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby aunt betty » Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:13 am

Those that cannot do...
Teach.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby Gunnysway » Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:45 am

Slack Tide wrote:How about this:
Threads like these launch with the presumption that schools are failing and the entire theme becomes about why they are failing..
If I started a thread about how "police in America" are this....or that...I'd be met with all kinds of resistance like "how could you possibly know how EVERY police department in America blah blah..." and you'd be right..
I would be commenting on MY perception of police in America..the same way that these threads presume that local observations are national realities..

It's a massive generalization that has become fashionable to join in on..
You can't have it both ways...you want to compare us to the Chinese who are in school 7 days a week all year long...IF they do anything else, they play the cello...
But you want to have your kid in 4 sports, 2 travel teams (at 9 years old)...take him out of school to go on vacation and yell at ME when I confiscate his cell phone for taking pictures in the bathroom??




What if our crime rate went from #1 (being the safest place in the world) to #17, #19, #25, #33...?

What would be the general public opinion...?
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby Slack Tide » Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:57 am

aunt betty wrote:Those that cannot do...
Teach.


That's just so silly.....
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby Rat Creek » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:21 am

Those that cannot do, teach.

The first place I heard that was from a college professor in the classroom he was teaching. :yes: There is a lot of truth to it, but a better descriptor might be - Those who do not want to actually do it, teach it. :hammer:

My company provides education products and services. I can tell you that one of the toughest assignments is to get a college professor to work on a project (research, publishing, whatever). They are so used to the very slow ebb and flow, and low stress of campus life that it is hard to get them to do any real work with real deadlines. It is like an alter-universe compared to the real world.

Absolute true story. My sister is a chemical engineer by degree and profession. She graduated from the University of Missouri - Science and Technology. It is a very good engineering school by any measure. Anyway, when some of her classmates were failing to make the grade and were not going to be accepted into their engineering school of choice, they were always told that they could always become a teacher. The same held true at the school I attended. The School of Education became the dumping ground.

The problem with this is not that the people do not have sufficient knowledge to teach most classes, especially up to HS level. The problem is these people landed in education for the wrong reasons. I think most teachers landed in education for the wrong reasons thus why so many just are not that good at it.

This is where it gets political. State Education Commissioners really do want to improve schools of education because this is where fixing education begins, but post secondary schools do not fall under their control. That is the board of regents in most states, and now you are back with trying to get tenured professors to disrupt their cushy lives to turn out better professionals to teach K thru 12.

I do not know how to make that happen other than to put into place much more rigorous teacher certification tests that include evaluation of real live teaching. Then if I graduate from the school of education with $80K in debt, but can not pass my teacher certification, I might have some recourse against the college which would force them to change. Until that happens, teacher colleges will keep churning out the same end product, some of which are awesome professionals and some not so much.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby SpinnerMan » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:25 am

Slack Tide wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:We need to change it.

You are correct but there is a huge difference between the in-class instruction and the administration of the building..you are talking more about policy and I am focusing more on curriculum and instruction.

I am talking about the system. You are correct. One teacher, one classroom, the curriculum, ... By themselves they are meaningless. It is the integral impact of the system. By the time the kids have 8 years in a broken system, there is nothing a single teacher can do. You cannot undo nearly 10,000 hours of training in the span of a few 10's of hours of individual attention. It's like anything, dogs which we are most familiar with, it doesn't matter how good you are if when you are gone someone else is teaching your dog all the wrong things.

BTW, this doesn't argue for paying teachers monopoly rates. Free market rates will get the same results at a much lower cost.

While I disagree that a monkey could do it, but I don't think quality has improved much since the requirements of college degrees and all of that. Nuns have done a good job with nothing but practical on the job experience. I think in the worst schools instead of hiring college grads with teaching degrees, the system would work far better if they went down to the local construction craft union hall and hired the guys that are the foreman on most jobs and made them the teacher.

The only time I truly misbehaved badly in class was when I had a teacher in 11th grade that was clearly scared of us. He just brought the worst out of all the boys because he was so obviously scared. Put a tough construction worker at the front of the class that can run a construction job and everybody will sit down and shut the hell up and more will do their work as well and the net will be a better outcome.

One thing I used to do in this class was sit at the back of an empty row and slowly push the row of desks forward until he was walking around them as he tried to teach. One day I pushed a little to hard and the whole row fell over. He picked them up without saying a word :no: He had no business in a class room and had been there for well over a decade at that point. After 6 years of Spanish, I didn't take another year. No freaking way was I taking one more year with this douche. After souring me on something I really enjoyed, I never took it in college and now have lost it all pretty much. At that point I could read just about anything in Spanish and follow any conversation. Don't really know how well I could communicate given that I really had no experience given the Hispanic population was ~0 and I never lived anywhere that there was a significant population that routinely spoke Spanish until about a decade later.

Gunnysway wrote:What if our crime rate went from #1 (being the safest place in the world) to #17, #19, #25, #33...?
It's much worse than that in many parts of the country and the so-called leaders in those areas rise to be President. So I think we have the answer :sad:

I still think there may be fatal flaws in that study.

For example, China is ranked very highly, but if you look at the education index and they rank very poorly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index
The Education Index is calculated from the Mean years of schooling index and the Expected years of schooling index.


How do you resolve these two? It seems pretty easy. By age 15, when the PISA test is taken, the school system has largely weeded out the lower IQ students and retained the high IQ students. That and it's China. They probably just flat out cheat as well.

It doesn't explain all of the difference, but I am sure there is a strong direct inverse relationship between the fraction of kids in school at age 15 and the performance on the PISA test.

Rat Creek wrote:Absolute true story. My sister is a chemical engineer by degree and profession. She graduated from the University of Missouri - Science and Technology. It is a very good engineering school by any measure. Anyway, when some of her classmates were failing to make the grade and were not going to be accepted into their engineering school of choice, they were always told that they could always become a teacher. The same held true at the school I attended. The School of Education became the dumping ground.
Same where I went. The education school got a whole lot of flunk out engineers.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby WTN10 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:35 am

Is this another thread about state employed baby sitters?
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby ScaupHunter » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:49 am

Yes.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby WTN10 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:22 am

ScaupHunter wrote:Yes.


Thought so. Hated my teachers with few exceptions. Most didn't want to be there, and I didn't either, so we both acted accordingly. Waste of time. As Will Hunting put it,

"You dropped 150 grand on an education you could have gotten for $1.50 in late charges at the public library."
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby Gunnysway » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:25 am

:lol:

love that movie.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby ScaupHunter » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:37 am

WTN10 wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:Yes.


Thought so. Hated my teachers with few exceptions. Most didn't want to be there, and I didn't either, so we both acted accordingly. Waste of time. As Will Hunting put it,

"You dropped 150 grand on an education you could have gotten for $1.50 in late charges at the public library."


I can understand that. It actually makes me a bit sad and angry at the same time. I get taxed to pay for public education. That money is often wasted on bad teachers!
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby Slack Tide » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:46 am

WTN10 wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:Yes.

Thought so. Hated my teachers with few exceptions. Most didn't want to be there, and I didn't either, so we both acted accordingly. Waste of time. As Will Hunting put it,
"You dropped 150 grand on an education you could have gotten for $1.50 in late charges at the public library."


There is a guy I work with who is ultra-cheap...I took my wife out for dinner, great restaurant, great meal, time together and had a great time...it wasn't cheap...but for us to have some time away from the kids and enjoy that meal was much needed.
The next day my friend mocked us and said "I was just as full as you guys and I had a slice of pizza, and you are out $150!"

Same as your logic...as if the education is just the books....sad
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby WTN10 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:01 am

Slack Tide wrote:
WTN10 wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:Yes.

Thought so. Hated my teachers with few exceptions. Most didn't want to be there, and I didn't either, so we both acted accordingly. Waste of time. As Will Hunting put it,
"You dropped 150 grand on an education you could have gotten for $1.50 in late charges at the public library."


There is a guy I work with who is ultra-cheap...I took my wife out for dinner, great restaurant, great meal, time together and had a great time...it wasn't cheap...but for us to have some time away from the kids and enjoy that meal was much needed.
The next day my friend mocked us and said "I was just as full as you guys and I had a slice of pizza, and you are out $150!"

Same as your logic...as if the education is just the books....sad


Sitting in a room made from cinder blocks while a person who is not as intelligent as you explains things you know without having to be taught is hardly a comparable experience to spending $150 at an upscale restaurant.

The point of your tired analogy is that there's something in the experience to be gained; you're paying for a night without the kids, someone else to cook for you, an act to make your wife happy. It's not the food, a reality that's lost on your cheap friend. The problem with it is that there's no comparable experience in school. If you believe twelve years in a public school is analogous to $150 meal at an upscale restaurant, it really leaves me wondering why you spend that much money at McDonald's.
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WTN10
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