Public Schools in the USA

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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby Slack Tide » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:23 am

WTN10 wrote: If you believe twelve years in a public school is analogous to $150 meal at an upscale restaurant


You know that's not the point at all...it was to demonstrate that the purpose of eating dinner is not to just get full..the same way that school is not just about books.
YOUR point in the Good Will Hunting quote (and his point in the movie) was that somehow the kid who went to college (Harvard) wasted his money on his time there because Will was able to get the same knowledge from the library...and he may very well have...but not the same education.
Dorm life?
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Travel?
Clubs?
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Internships?
Sports?
Connections?
You have to disagree because it reinforces the decisions you made in your life..someone who enjoyed school must be an idiot. Someone who admired their teachers must be an ass kisser...someone who went away to school wasted their money...
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby ScaupHunter » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:46 am

Harvard is not a public school. Apples and Oranges for everyone! :lol3:
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby Slack Tide » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:50 am

ScaupHunter wrote:Harvard is not a public school. Apples and Oranges for everyone! :lol3:

You get the point
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby WTN10 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:17 pm

Slack Tide wrote:
WTN10 wrote: If you believe twelve years in a public school is analogous to $150 meal at an upscale restaurant


You know that's not the point at all...it was to demonstrate that the purpose of eating dinner is not to just get full..the same way that school is not just about books.
YOUR point in the Good Will Hunting quote (and his point in the movie) was that somehow the kid who went to college (Harvard) wasted his money on his time there because Will was able to get the same knowledge from the library...and he may very well have...but not the same education.
Dorm life?
Roommates?
Fraternity?
Travel?
Clubs?
Relationships?
Internships?
Sports?
Connections?
You have to disagree because it reinforces the decisions you made in your life..someone who enjoyed school must be an idiot. Someone who admired their teachers must be an ass kisser...someone who went away to school wasted their money...


Don't mistake me for you. My opinions aren't nearly as binary as you suggest. Someone who enjoyed school probably had great teachers who actually taught and inspired them. Someone who admired their teachers must have had admirable teachers. Someone who went away for school and was enabled to land a great job made a sound investment.

While those scenarios exist, that has not been my experience. My favorite teacher was my Freshman Honors English teacher. He knew what I was and what I planned to do. He jerked me to the side at the beginning of the year and told me in no uncertain terms he wasn't putting up with that sh*t, and I do believe he used the word sh*t. He knew what I was capable of and if I didn't produce, he'd fail me and drop me from the honors program.

He cared and as a result, I did my best for him. The vast majority didn't though. The next year, my Honors English teacher sat at her desk and did nothing most of the time. It was a waste of my time and hers, and that's mostly what school was.

The value of education is calculated by what is put into it. I rate the value of public education very poorly, because of the effort put into it by educators.

Also, to point out the obvious:

Will received a better education outside of Harvard as well. He knew how to treat others, how to act in social situations, how to land women, how to make friends, how to pay bills, how to rent from the library, how to feed and clothe himself, and how to humiliate bullies. It's implied in the movie that he's a troubled youth who had no use for formal education, and probably put no effort into it (explaining why he works as a janitor).

So, your point was?
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby Slack Tide » Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:53 pm

WTN10 wrote:Don't mistake me for you.
I'm talking about you not me.
My opinions aren't nearly as binary as you suggest.
I try to make them clear and simple as you and I are not the only ones reading
Someone who enjoyed school probably had great teachers who actually taught and inspired them.
That's me
Someone who admired their teachers must have had admirable teachers.
Many were...
Someone who went away for school and was enabled to land a great job made a sound investment.
Enabled to, or able to? My student loans made me ABLE to....

While those scenarios exist, that has not been my experience.
Fair enough

My favorite teacher was my Freshman Honors English teacher.
Funny...I teach Honors English....
He knew what I was and what I planned to do. He jerked me to the side at the beginning of the year and told me in no uncertain terms he wasn't putting up with that sh*t, and I do believe he used the word sh*t. He knew what I was capable of and if I didn't produce, he'd fail me and drop me from the honors program.

He cared and as a result, I did my best for him.
A frequent quid pro quo
The vast majority didn't though.
The next year, my Honors English teacher sat at her desk and did nothing most of the time. It was a waste of my time and hers, and that's mostly what school was.
That sucks...

The value of education is calculated by what is put into it. I rate the value of public education very poorly, because of the effort put into it by educators.
I just can't accept that generalization....first because you would have to be presuming that your experience a long time ago is an accurate snapshot of the entire system of education on a national level many years later...and you have demonstrated yourself to be too smart for that type of leap...and secondly because I live it and that's just not what I see...

Also, to point out the obvious:

Will received a better education outside of Harvard as well. He knew how to treat others, how to act in social situations, how to land women, how to make friends, how to pay bills, how to rent from the library, how to feed and clothe himself, and how to humiliate bullies. It's implied in the movie that he's a troubled youth who had no use for formal education, and probably put no effort into it (explaining why he works as a janitor).
100% and I wish the USA would praise the vocational system more...it is an extraordinary education and should be more available and less of a punch line.

So, your point was?


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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby assateague » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:17 pm

Slack Tide wrote:I completely agree with your idea of accountability Asst...so don't think it's apathy or laziness at all. It's important to know that I am talking about 6th ELA here too. It is for the final grade window on the system only....not each and every quiz and test as you go through the semester...so it tabulates and averages along the way as you enter ANY grade....and each grade is weighted...so pop spelling quizzes are less of a percentage than a project or long essay. When it's all said and done the options for a final grade for the semester are 55, then 65.66.67.68.69........and up...
My purpose for sharing this was to shed light on how the parents have more power than the union to dispel that concept (at least in the districts where I am)....now the new argument becomes "why don't I stand up and do something about i?"
One debate at a time.



Ok, gotcha. I thought it was a system in place for entering ALL grades, not just finals. I see where you're coming from now with the "F is an F" argument, although I do still believe it's wrong.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby assateague » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:25 pm

As for the education "experience", I'd be just fine without my kids being exposed to drug use, teen sex/pregnancy, apathy, a complete lack of accountability, and crappy food. And the curriculum is a whole 'mother ball game.

The fact that teachers unions and the government so strenuously object to school vouchers makes me want to punch somebody.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby vincentpa » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:56 pm

While I have little respect for the teaching "profession", they have only a part to play in our terrible public school system. They make a convenient scape goat for all that ails it. They have to accept their part in the failed system before the others may possibly accept their own.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby SpinnerMan » Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:51 pm

assateague wrote:
Slack Tide wrote:I completely agree with your idea of accountability Asst...so don't think it's apathy or laziness at all. It's important to know that I am talking about 6th ELA here too. It is for the final grade window on the system only....not each and every quiz and test as you go through the semester...so it tabulates and averages along the way as you enter ANY grade....and each grade is weighted...so pop spelling quizzes are less of a percentage than a project or long essay. When it's all said and done the options for a final grade for the semester are 55, then 65.66.67.68.69........and up...
My purpose for sharing this was to shed light on how the parents have more power than the union to dispel that concept (at least in the districts where I am)....now the new argument becomes "why don't I stand up and do something about i?"
One debate at a time.



Ok, gotcha. I thought it was a system in place for entering ALL grades, not just finals. I see where you're coming from now with the "F is an F" argument, although I do still believe it's wrong.

Which makes it even dumber if it is totally pointless. If it is pointless, it is irrelevant to the discussion.


Slack Tide,

Is there some way the final score is relevant? I'm not sure I ever received a report card that had anything but the final grade and rarely new the final average unless I actually calculated it myself. I know some schools do things differently and given that I was never in danger of repeating a grade or not graduating, is there any way this is actually relevant?

BTW, I still have dreams about failing classes on rare occasion even though I never did.

I did however miss one exam and showed up late to a couple others including the final of the class that I missed the first midterm :eek: That's one way to turn an easy A into a C, miss a midterm and show up 2 hours late for a 3 hour final. They did give me a makeup exam for the missed midterm because they had to because they changed the date from what was on the syllabous. They did not however have to give me an easy makeup :no: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :lol3: :lol3: :lol3: I nearly missed the final because I slept through my alarm because I had stayed up late helping a friend study who was flunking out of engineering. It didn't help. She's now a teacher :yes: No kidding. She aced her classes after making the switch :huh:

BTW, why did I miss the date change of the midterm? I never went to class. I did all the work on my own and showed up for the tests. For the first two years of college, my class attendance was probably less than 50% for classes where attendance was not mandatory. Many classes I would show up and get the syllabus and then skip most of the lectures and show up for the tests. It wasn't until after my 2nd year of college that I started showing up to class reliably. It wasn't until I got a job as a co-op student that I decided to step things up along with getting a C in my partial differential equations class because I didn't go to class and missed the midterm.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby ScaupHunter » Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:07 pm

My starting Civil Engineering class had 125 students. We graduated 28. I used to tutor the hot education majors in math and some other subjects. The thank you's were always pleasant. :thumbsup:
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby Slack Tide » Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:39 pm

assateague wrote:As for the education "experience", I'd be just fine without my kids being exposed to drug use, teen sex/pregnancy, apathy, a complete lack of accountability, and crappy food.


Do you mean the Middle School they go to? Or the HS?
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby assateague » Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:44 pm

Elementary and HS. Some apply to only one, some apply to both.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby 870shooter » Fri Dec 06, 2013 8:29 pm

Teachers...... My son was having problems in his Algebra II class. When he asked his teacher when he could get with her for some extra help her reply was, "My contract says I must be here from 8am"(10 mins before school starts)"till 3:30 pm"(20 mins after school lets out)"so that is when I am here, not a minute before and not a minute longer". A real fine example of the attitude a teacher should have.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby Slack Tide » Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:04 am

870shooter wrote:Teachers...... My son was having problems in his Algebra II class. When he asked his teacher when he could get with her for some extra help her reply was, "My contract says I must be here from 8am"(10 mins before school starts)"till 3:30 pm"(20 mins after school lets out)"so that is when I am here, not a minute before and not a minute longer". A real fine example of the attitude a teacher should have.


I can't imagine that she said the "not a minute longer part".....maybe she was just saying hey, this is when I'm here to come....
If she did, that's lame..but I can tell you this (and this may or may not apply to your son)....
When I tell some shlub parent, whose kid is a lazy disruption in my class, that the kid is failing....and they ask for extra help....
my standard answer for THAT type of kid is "when I feel that John has exhausted all the suggestions that I have given him AND gets organized, gets to class on time, starts turning in his HW and is still struggling....then I will give him extra help....."
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby 870shooter » Sat Dec 07, 2013 7:56 pm

Slack Tide wrote:
870shooter wrote:Teachers...... My son was having problems in his Algebra II class. When he asked his teacher when he could get with her for some extra help her reply was, "My contract says I must be here from 8am"(10 mins before school starts)"till 3:30 pm"(20 mins after school lets out)"so that is when I am here, not a minute before and not a minute longer". A real fine example of the attitude a teacher should have.


I can't imagine that she said the "not a minute longer part".....maybe she was just saying hey, this is when I'm here to come....
If she did, that's lame..but I can tell you this (and this may or may not apply to your son)....
When I tell some shlub parent, whose kid is a lazy disruption in my class, that the kid is failing....and they ask for extra help....
my standard answer for THAT type of kid is "when I feel that John has exhausted all the suggestions that I have given him AND gets organized, gets to class on time, starts turning in his HW and is still struggling....then I will give him extra help....."


The "not a minute before and not a minute longer", which she did say, I asked her about it and she told me the same thing, doesn't bother me near as much as her bringing up her "contract" to a student. Why not just come right out and say "I'm hear to fufill my contract only and draw a check, if you actually get an education doesn't matter to me"? And no, my son is not the student you describe, not according to any of his teachers, past or present. He is an honor roll student who's grade in algebra II had slipped to a C+. He knows that is not acceptable to us, his parents, but more importantly, it was not acceptable to him. He came to me first for help but all I remember of functions and quadratic equations is they gave me fits too. Then, like I said, he went to the teacher for help, not his shlub parents, and got the response above. 10 minutes before school is not much help and after school he had football practice so we had to get some help from a student tutor for a short while. I don't mind doing this but I still think the teacher showed a piss poor attitude towards a student that was looking for help.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby Slack Tide » Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:45 am

870shooter wrote:
Slack Tide wrote:
870shooter wrote:Teachers...... My son was having problems in his Algebra II class. When he asked his teacher when he could get with her for some extra help her reply was, "My contract says I must be here from 8am"(10 mins before school starts)"till 3:30 pm"(20 mins after school lets out)"so that is when I am here, not a minute before and not a minute longer". A real fine example of the attitude a teacher should have.


I can't imagine that she said the "not a minute longer part".....maybe she was just saying hey, this is when I'm here to come....
If she did, that's lame..but I can tell you this (and this may or may not apply to your son)....
When I tell some shlub parent, whose kid is a lazy disruption in my class, that the kid is failing....and they ask for extra help....
my standard answer for THAT type of kid is "when I feel that John has exhausted all the suggestions that I have given him AND gets organized, gets to class on time, starts turning in his HW and is still struggling....then I will give him extra help....."


The "not a minute before and not a minute longer", which she did say, I asked her about it and she told me the same thing, doesn't bother me near as much as her bringing up her "contract" to a student. Why not just come right out and say "I'm hear to fufill my contract only and draw a check, if you actually get an education doesn't matter to me"? And no, my son is not the student you describe, not according to any of his teachers, past or present. He is an honor roll student who's grade in algebra II had slipped to a C+. He knows that is not acceptable to us, his parents, but more importantly, it was not acceptable to him. He came to me first for help but all I remember of functions and quadratic equations is they gave me fits too. Then, like I said, he went to the teacher for help, not his shlub parents, and got the response above. 10 minutes before school is not much help and after school he had football practice so we had to get some help from a student tutor for a short while. I don't mind doing this but I still think the teacher showed a piss poor attitude towards a student that was looking for help.


Agreed...
On a hunch here....is the Principal a ****? Do you know of drama between him/her and the staff?
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby Rat Creek » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:01 am

I'm guessing it's not a right to work state. We see that union solidarity attitude in metro areas a lot. It's a rare occasion that teachers stay to the end of their "contract" day if we are there doing training or inservice. By 130pm, the slow trickle of people leaving begins.

Thankfully though you will get to see and work with the true pros without the distractions for the final hour because all the attitudes are already at their homes.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby 870shooter » Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:55 pm

Slack Tide wrote:
870shooter wrote:
Slack Tide wrote:
870shooter wrote:Teachers...... My son was having problems in his Algebra II class. When he asked his teacher when he could get with her for some extra help her reply was, "My contract says I must be here from 8am"(10 mins before school starts)"till 3:30 pm"(20 mins after school lets out)"so that is when I am here, not a minute before and not a minute longer". A real fine example of the attitude a teacher should have.


I can't imagine that she said the "not a minute longer part".....maybe she was just saying hey, this is when I'm here to come....
If she did, that's lame..but I can tell you this (and this may or may not apply to your son)....
When I tell some shlub parent, whose kid is a lazy disruption in my class, that the kid is failing....and they ask for extra help....
my standard answer for THAT type of kid is "when I feel that John has exhausted all the suggestions that I have given him AND gets organized, gets to class on time, starts turning in his HW and is still struggling....then I will give him extra help....."


The "not a minute before and not a minute longer", which she did say, I asked her about it and she told me the same thing, doesn't bother me near as much as her bringing up her "contract" to a student. Why not just come right out and say "I'm hear to fufill my contract only and draw a check, if you actually get an education doesn't matter to me"? And no, my son is not the student you describe, not according to any of his teachers, past or present. He is an honor roll student who's grade in algebra II had slipped to a C+. He knows that is not acceptable to us, his parents, but more importantly, it was not acceptable to him. He came to me first for help but all I remember of functions and quadratic equations is they gave me fits too. Then, like I said, he went to the teacher for help, not his shlub parents, and got the response above. 10 minutes before school is not much help and after school he had football practice so we had to get some help from a student tutor for a short while. I don't mind doing this but I still think the teacher showed a piss poor attitude towards a student that was looking for help.


Agreed...
On a hunch here....is the Principal a ****? Do you know of drama between him/her and the staff?


LOL. The Principle. OK, I will give a brief description and you see if you can guess. The man is about 5'5". Weighs maybe 145 pounds. Mostly bald with a GIANT handlebar mustache. Drives a extremely lifted 4X4 pickup with giant tires. (He almost needs a ladder to get in it). Prone to screaming fits at students and parents.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby assateague » Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:36 pm

He would scream at me. Once.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby vincentpa » Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:07 am

Hey AT & Spinner,
This will get you. In Pittsburgh, they have a program called "The Pittsburgh Promise." Any child graduating from a Pittsburgh Public School will receive $10,000 annually towards college education without considering the income of the parents. It's a kind of scholarship just for attending city public schools. If a city resident who pays public school taxes sends their child to a private school, the child does not qualify for the $10,000 per year college scholarship even though the parents of the child schooled in a private school pay the same taxes as those that send their child to a public school. Mind you, Pittsburgh is broke and in receivership with the Commonwealth of PA.
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby Slack Tide » Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:47 am

870shooter wrote:LOL. The Principle. OK, I will give a brief description and you see if you can guess. The man is about 5'5". Weighs maybe 145 pounds. Mostly bald with a GIANT handlebar mustache. Drives a extremely lifted 4X4 pickup with giant tires. (He almost needs a ladder to get in it). Prone to screaming fits at students and parents.


I can tell you what that is...and you're not going to like it....
Sometimes when there is a bad relationship between the Admin and staff..they dig in their heels and HYPER-abide by the contract...for example..if someone went to their Principal and asked to "beat the buses" (which means to simply leave before the buses to not get stuck behind them....maybe they needed to get to a Dr. appt or pick up their child etc)...the human answer would be "sure, not problem"....this guy sounds like he would say..Nope because YOUR contract says that you have to be here until 2:35...sorry..it's YOUR contract...
Then...to be dicky and play the same game...your son's teacher probably did the same thing..
not a good environment
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby assateague » Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:23 am

But wait- I thought it was "about the kids", and the cause of a crappy education was "the parents"?
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby Gunnysway » Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:03 am

Slack Tide wrote:
870shooter wrote:LOL. The Principle. OK, I will give a brief description and you see if you can guess. The man is about 5'5". Weighs maybe 145 pounds. Mostly bald with a GIANT handlebar mustache. Drives a extremely lifted 4X4 pickup with giant tires. (He almost needs a ladder to get in it). Prone to screaming fits at students and parents.


I can tell you what that is...and you're not going to like it....
Sometimes when there is a bad relationship between the Admin and staff..they dig in their heels and HYPER-abide by the contract...for example..if someone went to their Principal and asked to "beat the buses" (which means to simply leave before the buses to not get stuck behind them....maybe they needed to get to a Dr. appt or pick up their child etc)...the human answer would be "sure, not problem"....this guy sounds like he would say..Nope because YOUR contract says that you have to be here until 2:35...sorry..it's YOUR contract...
Then...to be dicky and play the same game...your son's teacher probably did the same thing..
not a good environment


This is the type of $h!T that needs to stop. Selfish teachers need to go. Fire all that don't "make the grade" Stop holding teachers responsible if they can show they tried their best. Fail kids that don't get it or will not try. Put the onus on the parent.

"I have a problem with my boss... so eff the kids." :no:

Makes me sick...
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Re: Public Schools in the USA

Postby boney fingers » Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:42 pm

Slack Tide wrote:
870shooter wrote:Teachers...... My son was having problems in his Algebra II class. When he asked his teacher when he could get with her for some extra help her reply was, "My contract says I must be here from 8am"(10 mins before school starts)"till 3:30 pm"(20 mins after school lets out)"so that is when I am here, not a minute before and not a minute longer". A real fine example of the attitude a teacher should have.


I can't imagine that she said the "not a minute longer part".....maybe she was just saying hey, this is when I'm here to come....
If she did, that's lame..but I can tell you this (and this may or may not apply to your son)....
When I tell some shlub parent, whose kid is a lazy disruption in my class, that the kid is failing....and they ask for extra help....
my standard answer for THAT type of kid is "when I feel that John has exhausted all the suggestions that I have given him AND gets organized, gets to class on time, starts turning in his HW and is still struggling....then I will give him extra help....."



My father set on our school board for years, one year the bus schedule was rearranged and it meant the teachers had to stay 2 minutes longer; the union filed a grievance and demanded pay.
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