Why are hunters bashing "Duck Dynasty hunters"

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Re: Why are hunters bashing

Postby slowshooter » Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:22 am

TomKat wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
clampdaddy wrote:
jaegerfisherman wrote: ....More and more people want to shoot a boone and crocket and could care less about the meat. Horn hunting more than going after meat to eat....

I wish this were the case in where I hunt. Every shlub in the hills is ready to dirt the first barely legal buck they see.

You can't eat the horns, which is why I have never passed on a legal deer.

In PA they screwed about 100,000 people per year out of a deer so that a few people can get a booner.

The math is simple. Number of deer born = number of deer that die over the course of a year to keep the population constant. You have to reduce the population by 4 or more doe to make room for a 2.5, 3.5, 4.5, and eventually the 5.5 year old shooter and that means a hell of a lot less fawns and a hell of a lot less deer harvested per year.

Duck hunters argue for shooting less hens so there are more young drakes to kill. But deer hunters that want to do the same are slubs :rolleyes:

If it's your land, do what you want, but on public land in most states it's clear what the public wants. More meat in the freezer and not more bone on the wall.


Would it be possible to express your thoughts in this post with a graph or chart Spinner?


LOL! I snorted! :lol3: :lol3: :lol3:
All this for a bowl of borscht.
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Re: Why are hunters bashing

Postby SpinnerMan » Tue Nov 12, 2013 4:23 am

clampdaddy wrote:
whaknstak wrote:Image

This is our thread now. Welcome to Thunderdome!

Or the CI, is there that much difference? :huh:
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Re: Why are hunters bashing

Postby ohioboy » Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:38 am

Got my outfit.
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Re: Why are hunters bashing "Duck Dynasty hunters"

Postby SAHunter1983 » Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:40 pm

Image

Man Purse... I THINK SO.

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Re: Why are hunters bashing

Postby SpinnerMan » Tue Nov 12, 2013 2:01 pm

SAHunter1983 wrote:Image

Man Purse... I THINK SO.

I think a lot of this crap is targeted at women who think they are buying something we can use.

Who hasn't got some useless crap as a Christmas gift?
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Re: Why are hunters bashing "Duck Dynasty hunters"

Postby Drakenstien » Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:09 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:
boney fingers wrote:http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=625882&mode=2

Hear are the actual estimates, the numbers look pretty good to me but everyone will interpret them differently. I will say this, back when we were able to harvest the 4-500 thousand deer a year, we had way too many.

My next question is, since 1/4 of the antlerless deer are bucks, then doesn't that mean 25% of the deer weve killed to make room for the young bucks are bucks anyway?

Too many deer is a totally separate question from the ratio of buck to doe. These are two separate question. The first is the # of deer per acre. The second is the ratio of buck to doe. As you pointed out, they are not 100% separable because big buck will eat more, so they will reduce the sustainable herd size a bit as there are more of them, but probably not enough to worry about, but I could be wrong on that since a mature buck can easily be twice the size of the average doe and if it must eat twice as much, that will reduce the carrying capacity by two antlerless deer for every extra mature buck. And clampdaddy is correct too that mature buck are a little more effective at breeding, but I've seen nothing that suggests it's a large factor in whitetail over the range we are talking about.

If you have too many deer, you don't have a sustainable population (or negative impact other populations of animals, etc.) and need to reduce it. And I know in some areas of PA this was definitely true. You solve that not by antler restrictions, but by a temporary increase in doe tags to reduce the population of baby makers while trying to maintain the buck/doe ratio as near as possible to the maximum fawn production so that the hunters can harvest the maximum number of deer at that new healthier lower population level and then maintain the population there.

I am talking purely about a higher buck/doe ratio that comes with antler restriction. It reduces the number of fawns produced at a given population level and therefore the number of deer that can be harvested. There is a reason that in a cow pasture or on a range, there are very few bulls for every cow. My grandfather operated his dairy farm with zero bulls for many years, but you can't just order from the vet when it comes to wild deer.

And yes, to make room for buck you have to increase your harvest of button bucks because there is no effective way to distinguish them. The transition does not happen over night.

For WHATEVER population is sustainable, there is a maximum number of deer that can be harvested annually. It's a simple fact.

I put this together per TK's request.

If there are no bucks, then there will be no fawns. If there are no doe, there are no fawns. However, one buck will take care of a bunch of doe. So the maximum fawn production will occur where the buck are a relatively small fraction of the population. And yes, older bucks are more efficient, but how much? That is what the basic shape will look like. The peak will be skewed to well below 50/50 which is what mother nature gives us at birth. And as you point out, roughly 1 out of 4 antlerless deer are button bucks, so the ratio would be 25% buck each fall if we killed 100% of the antlered buck each year. Even that is probably above the optimum level, but without selectively killing button bucks like a farmer does when managing his herd, that's the best we can do. Now if for mule deer, the gap between young buck and mature buck is huge, then that could change things.

FawnProductionShape.jpg



The trick is finding that happy medium. Having enough does and bucks to have a healthy population, but not to many so that the land takes a hit( by being overgrazed). Also the control of does is very important to hunters because if you had a lot of does the bucks would not move( no need). And not killing deer is a problem because of less wooded land for the deer to be in and they get squeezed together. It is also my belief that clear cutting and thin cutting has had a positive impact on deer. I believe this because more food is able to grow on the forest floor to support them and more places to feel comfortable because it is so thick.


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Re: Why are hunters bashing

Postby SpinnerMan » Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:36 pm

Drakenstien wrote:Having enough does and bucks to have a healthy population, but not to many so that the land takes a hit( by being overgrazed).

Just remember there are two questions.

1. Carrying capacity of the land - basically number of deer per acre regardless of sex (may need to adjust a little if buck eat more than doe)

2. the sex ratio of that population

Drakenstien wrote:It is also my belief that clear cutting and thin cutting has had a positive impact on deer. I believe this because more food is able to grow on the forest floor to support them and more places to feel comfortable because it is so thick.
No doubt about it. The carrying capacity of old growth unbroken forest is far less than broken farmland.

Drakenstien wrote:The trick is finding that happy medium.
There is a tradeoff between total number of deer harvested and the number of mature buck harvested. My argument is given that it is crystal clear that the large majority of hunters care far more about the number of deer they can harvest, it should be the management approach, especially in places like PA where the number of deer harvested per year is far lower than the number of hunters. Reducing the total number of deer harvested in order to get some better bucks means that a large number of hunters get no deer at all. However, it places like GA where the number of deer harvested exceeds the number of hunters wanting to harvest deer, I don't have as much of a problem. And there are some places where it is necessary to impose an earn-a-buck type program to ensure enough doe are killed, so there I really don't care whether they apply antler restrictions or not.

Think of it like a cattle herd. You can have 100 head of cattle in a particular pasture. Would any farmer every have a 50/50 ratio? It would be a very low number of bulls. Deer breed differently, so you need more buck, but still not a large fraction to maximize your sustainable harvest. If you want to produce old bulls for some reason, you can't produce as many steers for beef.

Drakenstien wrote:Also the control of does is very important to hunters because if you had a lot of does the bucks would not move( no need).
The young bucks would move because they don't know any better. This is another problem with antler restrictions. The number of deer seen while hunting goes down as the number of mature buck goes up, especially if your season is after the rut like it is in PA.
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Re: Why are hunters bashing "Duck Dynasty hunters"

Postby Drakenstien » Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:21 pm

I do like the idea of earn a buck in certain areas. My club would be perfect for that because we don't kill enough does but down the road that is no the case. This is due to a culture of waiting for a doe to come out at 8 or 9 in the morning because they don't want to ruin their opportunity at a buck or clean in the dark. Not saying I do but killing 4 does on 1500 acres isn't enough in my opinion. Especially when you have timber land which half is clearcut and and another 25% is thin-cut this is a problem. It is because that's a lot of briars and berries to eat. But down the road it is different and I think this is why there might not be that kind of law. To me though little buck are the same though because the little bucks can slip in on the does of the mature buck. Yes they do have to move but not as much. When you also allow more deer the process of natural selection is thrown out and you have a weaker smaller herd.


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Re: Why are hunters bashing

Postby SpinnerMan » Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:08 am

All I know about deer hunting at this moment is that I decided to go duck hunting the last 3 days I had the opportunity to hunt. I pulled my trail cam on the way out yesterday. All three days I had deer standing in front of my stand, exactly where I would want them and exactly when I would have wanted them there if I had been deer hunting :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Every one of them a shooter :yes: A 1.5 year old looks like a 5 point two days and a doe with a yearling doe another day.

Drakenstien wrote:When you also allow more deer the process of natural selection is thrown out and you have a weaker smaller herd.
Whitetail deer hunting has nothing to do with natural selection. It is a managed herd. PA killed off most bucks for generations. The heard continued to grow and grow. There were no problems except eventually too many deer in a lot of places.
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Re: Why are hunters bashing "Duck Dynasty hunters"

Postby Drakenstien » Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:27 am

To me, kill off certain defects/unwanted genes/or whatever is natural selection. Because even though you might not think we natural or supposed to be doing this, I do. I see my self as another animal killing animals. You could call it herd management. I think we have it get rid of deer like this because there is something wrong.Image
This is a place where most big bucks way less than 150. When I saw him on my camera I though he was a horse.


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Re: Why are hunters bashing "Duck Dynasty hunters"

Postby Drakenstien » Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:28 am

Yes that a doe


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Re: Why are hunters bashing

Postby SpinnerMan » Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:45 am

Drakenstien wrote:Because even though you might not think we natural or supposed to be doing this, I do. I see my self as another animal killing animals.
Dogs are not the product of natural selection. They are the result of the goals and objectives of intelligent design.

What we are debating is two separate goals for designing the deer population.

We are making choices to go down a particular path. Natural selection does not involve decisions being made. It is the natural response to the conditions. We don't like that result. Some of us like to artificially reduce the buck/doe ratio so we can harvest more deer per year as well as manipulating the environment so it can support more deer per acre, like clear and thin cutting. Others wish to make a different choice because they value bone on the wall more than meat in the freezer. This is not natural selection. This is the result of human value judgments just like the development of dog breeds.

Of course some people like to believe their values are the superior values and denigrate the shlubs with a different opinion. It is human nature and the biggest fundamental flaw of most liberals. They just know they know better and those that disagree are lesser human beings.
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Re: Why are hunters bashing "Duck Dynasty hunters"

Postby xtrema13 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:45 am

JuniorPre 360 wrote:
Drakenstien wrote:I have seen many people on this forum and other forums bashing the new flock of hunters due to the show Duck Dynasty. Why is this a big deal, I thought the goal was to get more people into hunting?

I would also like to see the duck stamp numbers for the last two years.


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-Poaching
-Breaking laws such as killing too many species, pelicans, hawks, and so on...
-Kids in the marsh referring to one another as Jack and Boy.
-New commers sneaking up on my decoys, realizing they are decoys, then hunting off of them.
-Skybusters, party blower callers, pro staffers, "experts," crews, teams, and kids wearing camo all the time now.
-Ignorant hunters wearing orange, shooting early and late, shooting without plugs, killing too many and so on...

I could go on but they make us look like a joke. A duck hunter is now a prebucent high school child with a painted face and a half grown beard (usually traveling in crews) or an extremely wealthy young guy with a huge boat and truck wearing orange with a lanyard covered in ebay bought bands.

So a group something like this? Image
Because I promise you we put more birds on the ground then you. We ONLY shoot decoying birds. Absolutely hate sky busters. We have even got in fights over it. We wake up at 2am and beat people to our public blind fair and square. Please continue...


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Re: Why are hunters bashing

Postby clampdaddy » Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:55 am

xtrema13 wrote: .....Because I promise you we put more birds on the ground then you....


Glad to see that you young'uns are getting into the sport but take it easy with promises like that. You only got a two bird average in that pic. It's not time to start beating your chest and poking at the old farts yet.
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Re: Why are hunters bashing

Postby go get the bird » Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:27 am

xtrema13 wrote: .....Because I promise you we put more birds on the ground then you....

Does you mom drive you to the killing fields in her minivan, as well? :lol3:
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Re: Why are hunters bashing "Duck Dynasty hunters"

Postby xtrema13 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:34 am

go get the bird wrote:
xtrema13 wrote: .....Because I promise you we put more birds on the ground then you....

Does you mom drive you to the killing fields in her minivan, as well? :lol3:

No?


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Re: Why are hunters bashing

Postby SpinnerMan » Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:58 am

xtrema13 wrote:
go get the bird wrote:
xtrema13 wrote: .....Because I promise you we put more birds on the ground then you....

Does you mom drive you to the killing fields in her minivan, as well? :lol3:

No?

So you have to ride your bike?
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Re: Why are hunters bashing

Postby ohioboy » Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:02 am

go get the bird wrote:
xtrema13 wrote: .....Because I promise you we put more birds on the ground then you....

Does you mom drive you to the killing fields in her minivan, as well? :lol3:

easy there guys.....

xtrema13-good work. you might have a little swagger now, but you have plenty of time to lose that.

CD-i would love a two bird average. last couple of years have sucked for me.

GGTB-i spent many days in a mini-van on the way to hunt deer/ducks/geese/pheasants. so easy to sleep in them. :thumbsup:
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Re: Why are hunters bashing

Postby SpinnerMan » Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:23 am

ohioboy wrote:CD-i would love a two bird average. last couple of years have sucked for me.
But it's not exactly strong proof that they kill more birds. Even I have days better than a 2 bird average.

We got so many this day we needed a wheelbarrow.

Image
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Re: Why are hunters bashing

Postby ScaupHunter » Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:31 am

xtrema13 wrote:
JuniorPre 360 wrote:
Drakenstien wrote:I have seen many people on this forum and other forums bashing the new flock of hunters due to the show Duck Dynasty. Why is this a big deal, I thought the goal was to get more people into hunting?

I would also like to see the duck stamp numbers for the last two years.


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-Poaching
-Breaking laws such as killing too many species, pelicans, hawks, and so on...
-Kids in the marsh referring to one another as Jack and Boy.
-New commers sneaking up on my decoys, realizing they are decoys, then hunting off of them.
-Skybusters, party blower callers, pro staffers, "experts," crews, teams, and kids wearing camo all the time now.
-Ignorant hunters wearing orange, shooting early and late, shooting without plugs, killing too many and so on...

I could go on but they make us look like a joke. A duck hunter is now a prebucent high school child with a painted face and a half grown beard (usually traveling in crews) or an extremely wealthy young guy with a huge boat and truck wearing orange with a lanyard covered in ebay bought bands.

So a group something like this? Image
Because I promise you we put more birds on the ground then you. We ONLY shoot decoying birds. Absolutely hate sky busters. We have even got in fights over it. We wake up at 2am and beat people to our public blind fair and square. Please continue...


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A two bird average is not something to be bragging about much less poking people who regularly limit 5 and 6 guys at a time with. By the way, we don't get up at 2, hunt public lands only, and regularly kill limits. You need to rethink your strategy and buy the kid with the green hat a camo one.
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Re: Why are hunters bashing

Postby API » Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:55 am

slowshooter wrote:I welcome all new hunters. I don't give a crap if Phyllis Diller, Ashley Judd, and Micheal Moore teamed up to get them out in the field.


Exactly! All these anti-DD arguments just do damage. More hunters is a good thing regardless of who recruits them. :thumbsup:
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Re: Why are hunters bashing

Postby go get the bird » Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:18 am

ohioboy wrote:GGTB-i spent many days in a mini-van on the way to hunt deer/ducks/geese/pheasants. so easy to sleep in them. :thumbsup:

I'd drive a minivan to a hunt. SOOO much room, good fuel mileage, cheap. The difference is that I'd be driving, not having my mother drop me off. :lol3:
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Re: Why are hunters bashing "Duck Dynasty hunters"

Postby xtrema13 » Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:29 am

Since I am 19 I do all the driving.


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Re: Why are hunters bashing

Postby SpinnerMan » Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:31 am

xtrema13 wrote:Since I am 19 I do all the driving.


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:lol3: :lol3: :lol3:

You are more 19 than you realize.
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Re: Why are hunters bashing

Postby vincentpa » Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:32 am

ScaupHunter wrote:
xtrema13 wrote:
JuniorPre 360 wrote:
Drakenstien wrote:I have seen many people on this forum and other forums bashing the new flock of hunters due to the show Duck Dynasty. Why is this a big deal, I thought the goal was to get more people into hunting?

I would also like to see the duck stamp numbers for the last two years.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

-Poaching
-Breaking laws such as killing too many species, pelicans, hawks, and so on...
-Kids in the marsh referring to one another as Jack and Boy.
-New commers sneaking up on my decoys, realizing they are decoys, then hunting off of them.
-Skybusters, party blower callers, pro staffers, "experts," crews, teams, and kids wearing camo all the time now.
-Ignorant hunters wearing orange, shooting early and late, shooting without plugs, killing too many and so on...

I could go on but they make us look like a joke. A duck hunter is now a prebucent high school child with a painted face and a half grown beard (usually traveling in crews) or an extremely wealthy young guy with a huge boat and truck wearing orange with a lanyard covered in ebay bought bands.

So a group something like this? Image
Because I promise you we put more birds on the ground then you. We ONLY shoot decoying birds. Absolutely hate sky busters. We have even got in fights over it. We wake up at 2am and beat people to our public blind fair and square. Please continue...


Sent from my PH-2



A two bird average is not something to be bragging about much less poking people who regularly limit 5 and 6 guys at a time with. By the way, we don't get up at 2, hunt public lands only, and regularly kill limits. You need to rethink your strategy and buy the kid with the green hat a camo one.


Leave these kids alone. They haven't even reached puberty yet.
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