Quote of the Day...11/22/2013

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Re: Quote of the Day...11/22/2013

Postby blackduckdog2 » Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:14 am

Indaswamp wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
buckmeister wrote:Capitalism has a dark side compared to what fairy tale?

All fairy tales have their dark sides or else they wouldn't resonate through our collective memories over the centuries. Well, the best ones do, and they're the only ones that stand the test of time…
But here's the thing that bugs me in here…I made my money (such as it is) as a small businessman. I love the free market. I have said this over and over, yet here you are, buckmeister, busting my chops because I DARE to suggest that capitalism is anything but absolutely perfect. Why the hell do you guys do that? EVERY economic system has problems, and we shouldn't pretend that ours is any different

no economic system is perfect, but capitalism is the best one by any measure.

Will you please show me where I have stated differently?!? I point out the flaws it has, because I always believe that we can do it better, and basically get called a marxist because of it

how exact;y would you make it 'better'? Keep in mind, I'm talking about 'capitalism', not 'crony capitalism' that we have today.

I would jack up usury laws so hard it'd be biblical
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Re: Quote of the Day...11/22/2013

Postby Indaswamp » Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:17 am

blackduckdog2 wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
buckmeister wrote:Capitalism has a dark side compared to what fairy tale?

All fairy tales have their dark sides or else they wouldn't resonate through our collective memories over the centuries. Well, the best ones do, and they're the only ones that stand the test of time…
But here's the thing that bugs me in here…I made my money (such as it is) as a small businessman. I love the free market. I have said this over and over, yet here you are, buckmeister, busting my chops because I DARE to suggest that capitalism is anything but absolutely perfect. Why the hell do you guys do that? EVERY economic system has problems, and we shouldn't pretend that ours is any different

no economic system is perfect, but capitalism is the best one by any measure.

Will you please show me where I have stated differently?!? I point out the flaws it has, because I always believe that we can do it better, and basically get called a marxist because of it

how exact;y would you make it 'better'? Keep in mind, I'm talking about 'capitalism', not 'crony capitalism' that we have today.

I would jack up usury laws so hard it'd be biblical

most states have usury laws on the books already, yet they have no teeth. want to know why? I'll let you research why all credit card companies are incorporated in Delaware.

you can google 'usury laws in the US' and start here:
http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/cc/20020320a.asp
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Re: Quote of the Day...11/22/2013

Postby assateague » Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:36 am

Speaking of usury laws, when I was in the military, a buddy told me of something called the "Soldiers and Sailors Civil Relief Act", or something similar. Basically, it prohibited any lender from charging over, I think, 11% interest, and was retroactive to the time you joined.

I figured what the heck, it's just a few letters (there really was no email or internet at the time) to write, if nothing happens and it's BS, so be it. Lo and behold, I got letters back from every lender asking for a copy of my enlistment papers to properly calculate my credit. I got several hundred dollars back on a couple credit cards and a used car loan.

I don't know if it's still on the books, but if any of you know folks in the military, tell them to look it up. It's very much worth it.
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Re: Quote of the Day...11/22/2013

Postby Indaswamp » Mon Nov 25, 2013 12:40 am

BTW BDD2, you are a fool if you think anything will be done to stop usury on a national level.
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Re: Quote of the Day...11/22/2013

Postby vincentpa » Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:55 am

I think the quote it attributed to Winston Churchill.
In a free society, it is not the obligation of the citizen to prove to the government that he is a good person. It is the obligation of the government to prove to the rest of the citizenry that the citizen is a bad person, with probable cause.
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Re: Quote of the Day...11/22/2013

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Nov 25, 2013 9:08 am

So how can you believe in a free market and believe in strong usury laws? :huh:

I believe you guys believe the market should set the rate for food, housing, etc., but not for the rate on borrowing something? :huh:

Fraud and those kind of things :hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:

But if someone wants to borrow money at 100% per minute to play the ponies, well that's why we will never eliminate bankruptcy. If you are not free to be a moron, you are not free.

Look at Obamacare. That was a major premise. If you buy these policies Obama doesn't like, you are a moron and we must make it illegal for you to do so. What is the difference? You can keep your loan if we like your loan, if not it is a subpar usury loan and now a crime to buy and sell. :no:
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Re: Quote of the Day...11/22/2013

Postby ScaupHunter » Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:44 am

SpinnerMan wrote:So how can you believe in a free market and believe in strong usury laws? :huh:

I believe you guys believe the market should set the rate for food, housing, etc., but not for the rate on borrowing something? :huh:

Fraud and those kind of things :hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:

But if someone wants to borrow money at 100% per minute to play the ponies, well that's why we will never eliminate bankruptcy. If you are not free to be a moron, you are not free.

Look at Obamacare. That was a major premise. If you buy these policies Obama doesn't like, you are a moron and we must make it illegal for you to do so. What is the difference? You can keep your loan if we like your loan, if not it is a subpar usury loan and now a crime to buy and sell. :no:


A free market does not need loans to work. They had it right in the old times when usury was a hanging offense. In am with BDD2 on this one. Cars and houses would cost 1/4 of what they cost today without easy loans being available.
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Re: Quote of the Day...11/22/2013

Postby Indaswamp » Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:56 am

ScaupHunter wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:So how can you believe in a free market and believe in strong usury laws? :huh:

I believe you guys believe the market should set the rate for food, housing, etc., but not for the rate on borrowing something? :huh:

Fraud and those kind of things :hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:

But if someone wants to borrow money at 100% per minute to play the ponies, well that's why we will never eliminate bankruptcy. If you are not free to be a moron, you are not free.

Look at Obamacare. That was a major premise. If you buy these policies Obama doesn't like, you are a moron and we must make it illegal for you to do so. What is the difference? You can keep your loan if we like your loan, if not it is a subpar usury loan and now a crime to buy and sell. :no:


A free market does not need loans to work. They had it right in the old times when usury was a hanging offense. In am with BDD2 on this one. Cars and houses would cost 1/4 of what they cost today without easy loans being available.

Loans are necessary in a fiat currency monetary system....no debts= no money.
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Re: Quote of the Day...11/22/2013

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Nov 25, 2013 1:05 pm

ScaupHunter wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:So how can you believe in a free market and believe in strong usury laws? :huh:

I believe you guys believe the market should set the rate for food, housing, etc., but not for the rate on borrowing something? :huh:

Fraud and those kind of things :hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:

But if someone wants to borrow money at 100% per minute to play the ponies, well that's why we will never eliminate bankruptcy. If you are not free to be a moron, you are not free.

Look at Obamacare. That was a major premise. If you buy these policies Obama doesn't like, you are a moron and we must make it illegal for you to do so. What is the difference? You can keep your loan if we like your loan, if not it is a subpar usury loan and now a crime to buy and sell. :no:


A free market does not need loans to work. They had it right in the old times when usury was a hanging offense. In am with BDD2 on this one. Cars and houses would cost 1/4 of what they cost today without easy loans being available.

A free market doesn't need any single element to work. My question was, why do you believe you have the right to take this freedom away from people. Who do you think you are? Obama?

Being with BDD2 should be a red flag

Image

That is my question. Not about whether it is good or bad, but about your freedom to loan your horse and charge rent. The freedom to loan your house and charge rent. The freedom to loan your cash and charge rent. The freedom to loan your personal property regardless of what it is and charge a fee regardless of what that personal property is. Please explain what personal property is OK to loan for a fee and what is not and especially why because I just see this as a usurping of individual liberty.

Indaswamp wrote:Loans are necessary in a fiat currency monetary system....no debts= no money.
Same question to you. Can you loan your gold and charge rent. Back in the Old Testament days, we were not talking about fiat currency. Fiat is irrelevant to the question that I asked.
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Re: Quote of the Day...11/22/2013

Postby Indaswamp » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:53 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:So how can you believe in a free market and believe in strong usury laws? :huh:

I believe you guys believe the market should set the rate for food, housing, etc., but not for the rate on borrowing something? :huh:

Fraud and those kind of things :hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:

But if someone wants to borrow money at 100% per minute to play the ponies, well that's why we will never eliminate bankruptcy. If you are not free to be a moron, you are not free.

Look at Obamacare. That was a major premise. If you buy these policies Obama doesn't like, you are a moron and we must make it illegal for you to do so. What is the difference? You can keep your loan if we like your loan, if not it is a subpar usury loan and now a crime to buy and sell. :no:


A free market does not need loans to work. They had it right in the old times when usury was a hanging offense. In am with BDD2 on this one. Cars and houses would cost 1/4 of what they cost today without easy loans being available.

A free market doesn't need any single element to work. My question was, why do you believe you have the right to take this freedom away from people. Who do you think you are? Obama?

Being with BDD2 should be a red flag

Image

That is my question. Not about whether it is good or bad, but about your freedom to loan your horse and charge rent. The freedom to loan your house and charge rent. The freedom to loan your cash and charge rent. The freedom to loan your personal property regardless of what it is and charge a fee regardless of what that personal property is. Please explain what personal property is OK to loan for a fee and what is not and especially why because I just see this as a usurping of individual liberty.

Indaswamp wrote:Loans are necessary in a fiat currency monetary system....no debts= no money.
Same question to you. Can you loan your gold and charge rent. Back in the Old Testament days, we were not talking about fiat currency. Fiat is irrelevant to the question that I asked.

You are comparing apples and oranges; Hard money loans are not the same as a fiat money loan. Fiat money is created when a laon is given under a fiat monetary system. Under a hard monetary system, the money units must already be in existence (i.e.-gold).
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Re: Quote of the Day...11/22/2013

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:57 pm

Indaswamp wrote:You are comparing apples and oranges; Hard money loans are not the same as a fiat money loan. Fiat money is created when a laon is given under a fiat monetary system. Under a hard monetary system, the money units must already be in existence (i.e.-gold).

Still avoiding the question. Why should you ban a person from loaning his personal property? Fiat money is personal property. Why can't they loan it out for a fee? What principle is being violated that you feel requires the government to make it a crime?

Prohibitions on usury predate fiat currency, so the two are not tied together.
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Re: Quote of the Day...11/22/2013

Postby Indaswamp » Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:04 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:You are comparing apples and oranges; Hard money loans are not the same as a fiat money loan. Fiat money is created when a laon is given under a fiat monetary system. Under a hard monetary system, the money units must already be in existence (i.e.-gold).

Still avoiding the question. Why should you ban a person from loaning his personal property? Fiat money is personal property. Why can't they loan it out for a fee? What principle is being violated that you feel requires the government to make it a crime?

Prohibitions on usury predate fiat currency, so the two are not tied together.

this will require a long post, which I do not have time to address right now.
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Re: Quote of the Day...11/22/2013

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Nov 25, 2013 3:21 pm

Indaswamp wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:You are comparing apples and oranges; Hard money loans are not the same as a fiat money loan. Fiat money is created when a laon is given under a fiat monetary system. Under a hard monetary system, the money units must already be in existence (i.e.-gold).

Still avoiding the question. Why should you ban a person from loaning his personal property? Fiat money is personal property. Why can't they loan it out for a fee? What principle is being violated that you feel requires the government to make it a crime?

Prohibitions on usury predate fiat currency, so the two are not tied together.

this will require a long post, which I do not have time to address right now.

What could take so long to explain why I can loan you my car and charge your rent, but I can't loan you a $20 and charge you rent? :huh:
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Re: Quote of the Day...11/22/2013

Postby Indaswamp » Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:07 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:You are comparing apples and oranges; Hard money loans are not the same as a fiat money loan. Fiat money is created when a laon is given under a fiat monetary system. Under a hard monetary system, the money units must already be in existence (i.e.-gold).

Still avoiding the question. Why should you ban a person from loaning his personal property? Fiat money is personal property. Why can't they loan it out for a fee? What principle is being violated that you feel requires the government to make it a crime?

Prohibitions on usury predate fiat currency, so the two are not tied together.

this will require a long post, which I do not have time to address right now.

What could take so long to explain why I can loan you my car and charge your rent, but I can't loan you a $20 and charge you rent? :huh:

Because you have a major disconnect with fiat money and hard currency.
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Re: Quote of the Day...11/22/2013

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:21 pm

Indaswamp wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:You are comparing apples and oranges; Hard money loans are not the same as a fiat money loan. Fiat money is created when a laon is given under a fiat monetary system. Under a hard monetary system, the money units must already be in existence (i.e.-gold).

Still avoiding the question. Why should you ban a person from loaning his personal property? Fiat money is personal property. Why can't they loan it out for a fee? What principle is being violated that you feel requires the government to make it a crime?

Prohibitions on usury predate fiat currency, so the two are not tied together.

this will require a long post, which I do not have time to address right now.

What could take so long to explain why I can loan you my car and charge your rent, but I can't loan you a $20 and charge you rent? :huh:

Because you have a major disconnect with fiat money and hard currency.

No I do not.

If I have a $20 bill can I loan it out for rent for whatever rate I can get? Why not?

It is such a simple question.

Hard or fiat. You can loan it an get whatever rate you can. Just like any other personal property of your own. Where am I wrong?

So is it only usury if it is not hard currency? :huh:
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Re: Quote of the Day...11/22/2013

Postby Indaswamp » Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:24 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:You are comparing apples and oranges; Hard money loans are not the same as a fiat money loan. Fiat money is created when a laon is given under a fiat monetary system. Under a hard monetary system, the money units must already be in existence (i.e.-gold).

Still avoiding the question. Why should you ban a person from loaning his personal property? Fiat money is personal property. Why can't they loan it out for a fee? What principle is being violated that you feel requires the government to make it a crime?

Prohibitions on usury predate fiat currency, so the two are not tied together.

this will require a long post, which I do not have time to address right now.

What could take so long to explain why I can loan you my car and charge your rent, but I can't loan you a $20 and charge you rent? :huh:

Because you have a major disconnect with fiat money and hard currency.

No I do not.

If I have a $20 bill can I loan it out for rent for whatever rate I can get? Why not?


hard money loan. you already have the $20 to lend.

It is such a simple question.

Hard or fiat. You can loan it an get whatever rate you can. Just like any other personal property of your own. Where am I wrong?

So is it only usury if it is not hard currency? :huh:
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Re: Quote of the Day...11/22/2013

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:26 pm

Indaswamp wrote:hard money loan. you already have the $20 to lend.

So when you loan a buddy a $20 bill, you didn't have it to lend? :huh:

I'll remember that if we ever meet. Hey, swamp, can I borrow $20 bucks for lunch, I'll hit the ATM ASAP. Oh you want it back. Sorry, you never had it to lend :yes:
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Re: Quote of the Day...11/22/2013

Postby Indaswamp » Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:30 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:hard money loan. you already have the $20 to lend.

So when you loan a buddy a $20 bill, you didn't have it to lend? :huh:

I'll remember that if we ever meet. Hey, swamp, can I borrow $20 bucks for lunch, I'll hit the ATM ASAP. Oh you want it back. Sorry, you never had it to lend :yes:

thank you for demonstrating you ignorance of the difference between a hard money loan and a fiat currency loan.
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hardmoney.asp
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Re: Quote of the Day...11/22/2013

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:44 pm

Indaswamp wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:hard money loan. you already have the $20 to lend.

So when you loan a buddy a $20 bill, you didn't have it to lend? :huh:

I'll remember that if we ever meet. Hey, swamp, can I borrow $20 bucks for lunch, I'll hit the ATM ASAP. Oh you want it back. Sorry, you never had it to lend :yes:

thank you for demonstrating you ignorance of the difference between a hard money loan and a fiat currency loan.
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hardmoney.asp

You are totally ducking the question.

Can you loan me a $20 bill or not?

Can you charge me a fee to borrow that $20 bill or not?

Usury is not equated with fiat currency. For some it is ANY interest on a loan for other's it is a government defined "excessive" rate much like subpar health insurance and is determined by what those in power say it is. And it historically applied to hard currency :fingerhead:

But yes, you printing that $20 bill is a crime and the government printing should be. The question is what can you do with it AFTER it has been printed. Can you loan it and what rate can you charge?
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Re: Quote of the Day...11/22/2013

Postby Indaswamp » Mon Nov 25, 2013 4:49 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:hard money loan. you already have the $20 to lend.

So when you loan a buddy a $20 bill, you didn't have it to lend? :huh:

I'll remember that if we ever meet. Hey, swamp, can I borrow $20 bucks for lunch, I'll hit the ATM ASAP. Oh you want it back. Sorry, you never had it to lend :yes:

thank you for demonstrating you ignorance of the difference between a hard money loan and a fiat currency loan.
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/h/hardmoney.asp

You are totally ducking the question.

Can you loan me a $20 bill or not?

Can you charge me a fee to borrow that $20 bill or not?

Usury is not equated with fiat currency. For some it is ANY interest on a loan for other's it is a government defined "excessive" rate much like subpar health insurance and is determined by what those in power say it is. And it historically applied to hard currency :fingerhead:

But yes, you printing that $20 bill is a crime and the government printing should be. The question is what can you do with it AFTER it has been printed. Can you loan it and what rate can you charge?

yes, I can loan you $20 and write a promissory note.
research the history of usury laws and WHY they were put into place. It has to do with the exponential growth of interest, and how economies always follow an "S" curve.
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Re: Quote of the Day...11/22/2013

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:04 pm

Indaswamp wrote:yes, I can loan you $20 and write a promissory note.

And get whatever interest I am willing to pay without running afoul of usury laws?

If so, you reject that usury should be a crime.

Or you do not believe that you should be allowed to loan that $20 and get whatever interest that you can.

There should be no usury laws. Fraud and other laws in this regard. Absolutely, but if someone wants to borrow money at 100% per minute to play the ponies and can find someone willing to loan it to them, hey, that's what freedom sometimes looks like. If you are not free to be a fool, you are not free and as we all know many people avail themselves of the freedom to be a fool, often with terrible consequences. The first of which is that a fool and his money will soon part and today high-interest unsecured debt is a big way fools part with their money.
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Re: Quote of the Day...11/22/2013

Postby Glimmerjim » Mon Nov 25, 2013 5:58 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:
beretta24 wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:The notion that people who won't think like you are sheep breeds a bunch of cynical, bitter old men.

How else would you describe the masses after seeing cwho makes it out of our primary elections? It almost always the person with the most cash, not the person with the best plan or ideas.

This is so, and it neatly parallels my notions about the dark side of capitalism (or at least our current version of it) that is, the people who garner to themselves the most wealth and power are the ones who are good at making money, and not necessarily the ones whose efforts might best build a better nation. Just for the record, my recognizing that capitalism HAS a dark side does NOT make me a socialist/marxist/communist or any such thing. It just makes me a realist

Sorry BDD2, your disclaimers will fall on deaf ears. In this venue the mere suggestion that capitalism HAS a dark side makes the majority clamor for drawing and quartering. Regardless of the validity or motive of conceivably critical statements, any potentially positive changes uttered leads to a well-organized chant of...."Well, ya socialist, red, commie homo. this here's the good ol' US of A, the greatest nation on God's green Earth, and if ya don't like it you can just pack up and leave and good riddance to ya!. And like I aleardy tol' ya, stay off the lawn!"
The creation of zealots makes one a good animal trainer, not a reasoned voice in the chaos of the masses.
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Re: Quote of the Day...11/22/2013

Postby Glimmerjim » Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:05 pm

beretta24 wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
assateague wrote:I hear what you're saying, but it seems to me that a realist would also see that, human nature being what it is, a true free market system is the best thing going.

100 points to Assateague for a great rebuttal. :thumbsup:

Free market yes, but I wouldn't say free market sans regulation would be very effective.

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Free market without regulation descends very rapidly into totalitarianism. A productive free market cannot exist without fundamentally agreed upon upon regulation, changing the very interpretation of "free market." It will always need a descriptive...."limited"...."controlled"..."regulated"... As does the word "freedom" by the way. So our basic differences lay in degree, not in concept. Regardless of how vain glorious it is to pronounce one as a supporter of freedom in life and trade.
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Re: Quote of the Day...11/22/2013

Postby clampdaddy » Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:19 pm

Glimmerjim wrote: ...Regardless of the validity or motive of conceivably critical statements, any potentially positive changes uttered leads to a well-organized chant of...."Well, ya socialist, red, commie homo. this here's the good ol' US of A, the greatest nation on God's green Earth, and if ya don't like it you can just pack up and leave and good riddance to ya!. And like I aleardy tol' ya, stay off the lawn!".....

You forgot "pinko". I love that word. For some reason I can't help but take on an Archie Bunker-ish accent every time I use it. :lol3:
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Re: Quote of the Day...11/22/2013

Postby Glimmerjim » Mon Nov 25, 2013 8:10 pm

clampdaddy wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:The notion that people who won't think like you are sheep breeds a bunch of cynical, bitter old men.


I seriously doubt that anyone here would honestly call you or Jim sheep. You guys are thinkers (usually wrong, but thinkers none the less :wink: :lol3: ) and not the types who've joined the herd because you needed a shepherd. You two seem like the type that have formed your opinions because you fear for the safety and welfare of those sheep. More like sheep dogs.

That's a very decent thing to say, cd! Don't encounter that often here! :beer:
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