Angola 'Bans Islam', Dismantles Mosques

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Re: Angola 'Bans Islam', Dismantles Mosques

Postby ohioboy » Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:45 pm

Indaswamp wrote:Makes me REALLY wonder what exactly you are teaching kids nowadays Ohio.....

i teach 1865-present.
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Re: Angola 'Bans Islam', Dismantles Mosques

Postby ohioboy » Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:46 pm

Indaswamp wrote:
ohioboy wrote:correct. i dont see muslim.

:rolleyes: study the history surrounding that period and the creation of the navy. Algiers was on the Barbary Coast and participated in pirate raids on Merchant US vessels. Look up Thomas Jefferson's correspondence with the ambassadors of Algiers.

we did this already. you had nothing.
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Re: Angola 'Bans Islam', Dismantles Mosques

Postby Indaswamp » Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:48 pm

ohioboy wrote:Swamp, show me muslim. tired argument. you cant.

Really? Do you not know what the Ottoman empire was?
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Re: Angola 'Bans Islam', Dismantles Mosques

Postby ohioboy » Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:49 pm

Indaswamp wrote:Algiers was a part of the Ottoman Empire during that time frame:
Barbary Wars, 1801–1805 and 1815–1816

The Barbary States were a collection of North African states, many of which practiced state-supported piracy in order to exact tribute from weaker Atlantic powers. Morocco was an independent kingdom, Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli owed a loose allegiance to the Ottoman Empire.


read the link:
http://history.state.gov/milestones/1801-1829/barbary-wars

dont see muslim. if you are making this assumption, is todays navy christian?
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Re: Angola 'Bans Islam', Dismantles Mosques

Postby Indaswamp » Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:54 pm

Ottoman Empire was islamic:
The Ottoman Empire was the one of the largest and longest lasting Empires in history.

It was an empire inspired and sustained by Islam, and Islamic institutions.

It replaced the Byzantine Empire as the major power in the Eastern Mediterranean.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/history/ottomanempire_1.shtml
I can't believe you did not know this.

Don't believe the BBC, try this:
http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195390155/obo-9780195390155-0155.xml
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Re: Angola 'Bans Islam', Dismantles Mosques

Postby Indaswamp » Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:56 pm

ohioboy wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:Algiers was a part of the Ottoman Empire during that time frame:
Barbary Wars, 1801–1805 and 1815–1816

The Barbary States were a collection of North African states, many of which practiced state-supported piracy in order to exact tribute from weaker Atlantic powers. Morocco was an independent kingdom, Algiers, Tunis, and Tripoli owed a loose allegiance to the Ottoman Empire.


read the link:
http://history.state.gov/milestones/1801-1829/barbary-wars

dont see muslim. if you are making this assumption, is todays navy christian?

irrelevant.
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Re: Angola 'Bans Islam', Dismantles Mosques

Postby Indaswamp » Mon Nov 25, 2013 10:58 pm

from the Oxford link:
The earliest period of Ottoman history contains the contentious issue of the role of Islam in the spreading of Ottoman rule beyond the small territory in northwest Anatolia where it began.


The Ottoman ruling establishment and the general Muslim population also had close links with Sufis (Islamic mystics)
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Re: Angola 'Bans Islam', Dismantles Mosques

Postby assateague » Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:03 pm

ScaupHunter wrote:What is crazy is a clueless liberal claiming he speaks for any citizen much less military personnel, active or veteran. I killed my share of Muslims in Iraq in 2003 / 2004. Many of my relatives including two brothers have added to that count. My family presently has over 20 tours spent hunting Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan. We did not fight for Iraq or its freedom. We fought for the ideal of free choice, for the men standing next to us, and for the ideals our nation stands for. I could give two craps less if every Muslim on this planet disappeared to tomorrow. I don't know of any American serviceman or woman who feels different. I come from a long line of them, and know quite literally thousand of them from my time in the service.

Do not speak for anyone who has served unless you have done so yourself. Others try it here and get mocked as complete dumb azzes. I will happy say that all Muslims who integrate and obey our laws are welcome here. I will also say that those who do not need to be hunted down, deported, or tried and executed. You really need to read your history and get a grip on reality. Separation of Church and State and Freedom of religion are not synonymous. Today's version of that separation is a bastardization that is not constitutional in any way.

By the way, Inda is handing you your butt and you are not smart enough to see it. Time to stop stomping on your own **** there WW.



He wasn't. He was chest thumping in his first post last week about his work for DoD "defending freedom and protecting our youth", which, it turns out, was designing helicopter parts or some crap for a defense contractor. He's a sorry excuse of an individual.
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Re: Angola 'Bans Islam', Dismantles Mosques

Postby Indaswamp » Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:05 pm

continuing:
Among the main opponents of the Ottoman state was the Safavid Empire, a Shiʿi Muslim empire to the east of the Ottoman lands. Shiʿism and so-called Islamic heresies were major internal issues as well as an external threat for the Sunni Ottomans. One means of curbing Shiʿism, as well as promoting Sunni Islam, was through the patronage of the judicial system that was organized and formalized in a new manner by the Ottomans.


I think that should suffice....

If you didn't know the Ottoman empire was Islamic, you do now. It is considered one of the 'great caliphates' of Islam.
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Re: Angola 'Bans Islam', Dismantles Mosques

Postby Indaswamp » Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:07 pm

assateague wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:What is crazy is a clueless liberal claiming he speaks for any citizen much less military personnel, active or veteran. I killed my share of Muslims in Iraq in 2003 / 2004. Many of my relatives including two brothers have added to that count. My family presently has over 20 tours spent hunting Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan. We did not fight for Iraq or its freedom. We fought for the ideal of free choice, for the men standing next to us, and for the ideals our nation stands for. I could give two craps less if every Muslim on this planet disappeared to tomorrow. I don't know of any American serviceman or woman who feels different. I come from a long line of them, and know quite literally thousand of them from my time in the service.

Do not speak for anyone who has served unless you have done so yourself. Others try it here and get mocked as complete dumb azzes. I will happy say that all Muslims who integrate and obey our laws are welcome here. I will also say that those who do not need to be hunted down, deported, or tried and executed. You really need to read your history and get a grip on reality. Separation of Church and State and Freedom of religion are not synonymous. Today's version of that separation is a bastardization that is not constitutional in any way.

By the way, Inda is handing you your butt and you are not smart enough to see it. Time to stop stomping on your own **** there WW.



He wasn't. He was chest thumping in his first post last week about his work for DoD "defending freedom and protecting our youth", which, it turns out, was designing helicopter parts or some crap for a defense contractor. He's a sorry excuse of an individual.

Wondered when Assa would show up. You've missed most of the fun! :wink:
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Re: Angola 'Bans Islam', Dismantles Mosques

Postby Indaswamp » Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:11 pm

ohioboy wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
ohioboy wrote:correct. i dont see muslim.

:rolleyes: study the history surrounding that period and the creation of the navy. Algiers was on the Barbary Coast and participated in pirate raids on Merchant US vessels. Look up Thomas Jefferson's correspondence with the ambassadors of Algiers.

we did this already. you had nothing.

you were technically correct, we could not find a direct quote to one of the signers of the Constitution, but I did find the John Quincy Adams quote.
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Re: Angola 'Bans Islam', Dismantles Mosques

Postby ohioboy » Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:22 pm

Indaswamp wrote:
ohioboy wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
ohioboy wrote:correct. i dont see muslim.

:rolleyes: study the history surrounding that period and the creation of the navy. Algiers was on the Barbary Coast and participated in pirate raids on Merchant US vessels. Look up Thomas Jefferson's correspondence with the ambassadors of Algiers.

we did this already. you had nothing.

you were technically correct, we could not find a direct quote to one of the signers of the Constitution, but I did find the John Quincy Adams quote.

i was correct. stop with the technical crap.

ottomans were tolerant of other religions, much of their downfall was due to this. i taught this in years past in world history.

swamp, nice try. you cant find muslim or islam in regards to the navy being formed. period.

my question of today's navy (in america, a christian country) is not irrelevant at all. it is very much so. prove me wrong? the connection is no less than your connection to them being muslim.


oh, and and assa. he still has not come by to see education in action. he is still complaining about it (and me) but does not have the balls to come watch a classroom in action. blah blah blah he is going to kick my arse is he sees me. sure. he know where i am every day. have i ever hid this? big talk. no action.
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Re: Angola 'Bans Islam', Dismantles Mosques

Postby Indaswamp » Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:28 pm

ohioboy wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
ohioboy wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
ohioboy wrote:correct. i dont see muslim.

:rolleyes: study the history surrounding that period and the creation of the navy. Algiers was on the Barbary Coast and participated in pirate raids on Merchant US vessels. Look up Thomas Jefferson's correspondence with the ambassadors of Algiers.

we did this already. you had nothing.

you were technically correct, we could not find a direct quote to one of the signers of the Constitution, but I did find the John Quincy Adams quote.

i was correct. stop with the technical crap.

ottomans were tolerant of other religions, much of their downfall was due to this. i taught this in years past in world history.

swamp, nice try. you cant find muslim or islam in regards to the navy being formed. period.

my question of today's navy (in america, a christian country) is not irrelevant at all. it is very much so. prove me wrong? the connection is no less than your connection to them being muslim.


oh, and and assa. he still has not come by to see education in action. he is still complaining about it (and me) but does not have the balls to come watch a classroom in action. blah blah blah he is going to kick my arse is he sees me. sure. he know where i am every day. have i ever hid this? big talk. no action.

right...define tolerant. Are you using the Islamic definition of 'tolerant', or the american definition of tolerant?
I've proven that the Ottoman empire was indeed under islamic rule at the time, and thus, Algiers (which was a part of the Ottoman empire). The Piracy was conducted and sanctioned by the state of Algiers. The Merchant ships were subjugated and had to pay tribute (jyza tax) to pass, or they would be subjected to slavery and plundered. Do I need to spell it out any clearer?
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Re: Angola 'Bans Islam', Dismantles Mosques

Postby Indaswamp » Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:32 pm

One last quote:
The state also had a direct role in the training and promoting of the Sunni religious hierarchy. Even in the production of art, religion played a large role. Outside the Ottoman ruling elite, much is known about the religious conditions of town dwellers, thanks in large part to the archival records of Muslim courts. It is safe to assert that the role of Islam in everyday life was substantial.


But yet, Ohio asserts that the Ottoman empire was not islamic.... :rolleyes:
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Re: Angola 'Bans Islam', Dismantles Mosques

Postby Indaswamp » Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:43 pm

Oh- about your 'secular' claims of the Ottoman empire:
Returning to the study of political elites, accounts of the rise of secularism in the 19th-century Ottoman Empire have been heavily revised on the basis of new scholarship. Many researchers now point to a closer involvement of religion in the reforms that tried to save the empire from the destruction that ultimately overtook it at the end of World War I.


:hi: It was an Islamic State. Deal with it. Do more research.
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Re: Angola 'Bans Islam', Dismantles Mosques

Postby Indaswamp » Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:48 am

it took me about an hour, but here is the hand written letter

http://memory.loc.gov/master/mss/mtj/mtj1/005/0400/0430.jpg

"American Peace Commissioners to John Jay," March 28, 1786, "Thomas Jefferson Papers," Series 1. General Correspondence. 1651–1827, Library of Congress. LoC: March 28, 1786 (handwritten).


In which states:
n March 1785, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams went to London to negotiate with Tripoli's envoy, Ambassador Sidi Haji Abdrahaman (or Sidi Haji Abdul Rahman Adja). When they enquired "concerning the ground of the pretensions to make war upon nations who had done them no injury", the ambassador replied:

It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share, and that when they sprang to the deck of an enemy's ship, every sailor held a dagger in each hand and a third in his mouth; which usually struck such terror into the foe that they cried out for quarter at once.[21]


It was State Sponsored Islamic Piracy. Good thing about the congressional record is that everything is there and unaltered. :hi:

****Edit to add:
Here is a text of the letter,
http://rotunda.upress.virginia.edu/founders/FOEA-03-01-02-0569
The American Peace Commissioners to John Jay
28 Mar. 1786
Sir— Grosvenor Square March 28 1786—

Soon after the arrival of Mr. Jefferson in London, We had a conference with the Ambassador of Tripoli, at His House.

The amount of all the Information we could obtain from him was that a perpetual peace was in all respects the most adviseable, because a temporary treaty would leave room for increasing demands upon every renewal of it and a stipulation for annual payments, would be liable to failures of performance which would renew the War, repeat the negotiations, and continually augment the Claims of his Nation, & the difference of Expence would by no Means be adequate to the Inconvenience, since 12.500 Guineas to his Constituents with 10 pr. Cent upon that sum for himself, must be paid if the treaty was made for only a Period of one Year,—

That 30.000 Guineas for his Employers & £3.000 for himself, were the lowest terms upon which a perpetual Peace could be made & that this must be paid in Cash on the Delivery of the Treaty signed by his sovereign—that no Kind of Merchandizes could be accepted

That Tunis would treat upon the same terms but he could not answer for Algiers or Morocco. We took the Liberty to make some Inquiries concerning the Grounds of their pretentions to make War upon Nations who had done them no Injury, & observed that we Considered all Mankind as our friends, who had done us no Wrong nor had given us any provocation—

The Ambassador answered us, that it was founded on the law of their great Profet: that it was written in the Koran, that all Nations who should not have acknowledged their Authority were sinners: that it was their right & duty to make war upon them whenever they could be found, & to make slaves of all they could take as prisoners; & that every Mussalman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise

That it was a Law, that the first who boarded an Enemy’s Vessell should have one slave, more than his share with the rest, which operated as an Incentive to the Most desperate Valour & Enterprize. That it was the practice of their Corsairs to bear down upon a ship; for each sailor to take a Dagger in each hand & another in his Mouth & leap on board, which so terrified their Enemies, that very few ever stood against them, That he verily believed the Devil assisted his Country-men, for they were almost allway’s successfull—

We took time to consider & promised an Answer but we can give him no other, than that the Demands exceed our Expectations & that of Congress so much, that we can proceed no further, without fresh Instructions.

There is but one possible way that we know of to procure the money, if Congress should authorize us to go the necessary expence, & that it is to borrow it in Holland. We are not certain that it can be had there

But if Congress should order us to make the best terms we can, with Tunis, Tripoli, Algiers & Morocco & to procure this Money, wherever we can find it, upon terms like those of the last loan in Holland, our best Endeavours shall be used to remove this formidable obstacle out of the Way of the Prosperity of the United States

Inclosed is a Copy of a Letter from P. R. Randall Esqr. at Barcelona. The last from Mr. Barclay was dated Bayonne—

It is hoped we shall soon have News from Algiers & Morocco and we wish it may not be more disagreable than this from Tunis & Tripoli—

We are with great / respect—Yours

J. A

T. J—
LbC (MHi: Adams Papers).
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Re: Angola 'Bans Islam', Dismantles Mosques

Postby Indaswamp » Tue Nov 26, 2013 1:00 am

My work is done here.... :hi:
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Re: Angola 'Bans Islam', Dismantles Mosques

Postby Indaswamp » Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:00 am

But, just by chance, if THAT isn't enough....Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11. I'll leave it to you to look it up at LOC....
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Re: Angola 'Bans Islam', Dismantles Mosques

Postby Indaswamp » Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:32 am

And because the text of Art. 11 in the treaty of tripoli 1795 is controversial, here's the text from the Treaty of Peace and Amity, Signed at Tripoli June 4, 1805 which supercedes the 1795 treaty:

ARTICLE 14th

As the Government of the United States of America, has in itself no character of enmity against the Laws, Religion or Tranquility of Musselmen, and as the said States never have entered into any voluntary war or act of hostility against any Mahometan Nation, except in the defence of their just rights to freely navigate the High Seas: It is declared by the contracting parties that no pretext arising from Religious Opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the Harmony existing between the two Nations; And the Consuls and Agents of both Nations respectively, shall have liberty to exercise his Religion in his own house; all slaves of the same Religion shall not be Impeded in going to said Consuls house at hours of Prayer. The Consuls shall have liberty and personal security given them to travel within the Territories of each other, both by land and sea, and shall not be prevented from going on board any Vessel that they may think proper to visit; they shall have likewise the liberty to appoint their own Drogoman and Brokers.


http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/bar1805t.asp
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Re: Angola 'Bans Islam', Dismantles Mosques

Postby Andy W » Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:39 am

Indaswamp wrote:I have nothing against 'muslims', but I do have huge issues with the doctrine of Islam.

It is a terribly small mind that cannot grasp the difference.
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Re: Angola 'Bans Islam', Dismantles Mosques

Postby vincentpa » Tue Nov 26, 2013 7:55 am

Would anyone else like to throw WW into a pit of rabid pit bulls just for fun?
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Re: Angola 'Bans Islam', Dismantles Mosques

Postby Andy W » Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:34 am

vincentpa wrote:Would anyone else like to throw WW into a pit of rabid pit bulls just for fun?

I don't know about that, but I'd pay to see him say that crap to ScaupHunter's face.
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Re: Angola 'Bans Islam', Dismantles Mosques

Postby ohioboy » Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:41 am

Indaswamp wrote:One last quote:
The state also had a direct role in the training and promoting of the Sunni religious hierarchy. Even in the production of art, religion played a large role. Outside the Ottoman ruling elite, much is known about the religious conditions of town dwellers, thanks in large part to the archival records of Muslim courts. It is safe to assert that the role of Islam in everyday life was substantial.


But yet, Ohio asserts that the Ottoman empire was not islamic.... :rolleyes:

back that train up. please show me where i said this: i did not. the only think i said was that they were tolerant.
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Re: Angola 'Bans Islam', Dismantles Mosques

Postby ohioboy » Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:00 am

Indaswamp wrote:
ohioboy wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
ohioboy wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
ohioboy wrote:correct. i dont see muslim.

:rolleyes: study the history surrounding that period and the creation of the navy. Algiers was on the Barbary Coast and participated in pirate raids on Merchant US vessels. Look up Thomas Jefferson's correspondence with the ambassadors of Algiers.

we did this already. you had nothing.

you were technically correct, we could not find a direct quote to one of the signers of the Constitution, but I did find the John Quincy Adams quote.

i was correct. stop with the technical crap.

ottomans were tolerant of other religions, much of their downfall was due to this. i taught this in years past in world history.

swamp, nice try. you cant find muslim or islam in regards to the navy being formed. period.

my question of today's navy (in america, a christian country) is not irrelevant at all. it is very much so. prove me wrong? the connection is no less than your connection to them being muslim.


oh, and and assa. he still has not come by to see education in action. he is still complaining about it (and me) but does not have the balls to come watch a classroom in action. blah blah blah he is going to kick my arse is he sees me. sure. he know where i am every day. have i ever hid this? big talk. no action.

right...define tolerant. Are you using the Islamic definition of 'tolerant', or the american definition of tolerant?
I've proven that the Ottoman empire was indeed under islamic rule at the time, and thus, Algiers (which was a part of the Ottoman empire). The Piracy was conducted and sanctioned by the state of Algiers. The Merchant ships were subjugated and had to pay tribute (jyza tax) to pass, or they would be subjected to slavery and plundered. Do I need to spell it out any clearer?

Tolerance? My students just learned about our "tolerance" of religion in other countries when we became an imperial power. We did not play nice.

since you like wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algiers#Ottoman_rule it was part, but not part of the ottoman empire. :oops: thus the ottoman empire's weakness. it was too big.

"Formally part of the Ottoman Empire but essentially free from Ottoman control, starting in the 17th century Algiers turned to piracy and ransoming"

look up jizya, your definition is off from what i know. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya it was a tax to be paid to practice another religion. i could be wrong.
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Re: Angola 'Bans Islam', Dismantles Mosques

Postby clampdaddy » Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:12 am

Andy W wrote:
vincentpa wrote:Would anyone else like to throw WW into a pit of rabid pit bulls just for fun?

I don't know about that, but I'd pay to see him say that crap to ScaupHunter's face.

I think the outcome would be the same, either way.
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