Christianity and the Death Penalty

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Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby Glimmerjim » Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:54 pm

I am just curious. How do conservative Christians, specifically those who prattle on endlessly about the illogic of the liberal mind, justify the usage of the death penalty. Serious question. Just to circumvent the obvious, if it were to prevent those who have a history of crime from doing so again in the future, why don't we send monthly speeding tickets to those who have been convicted of speeding in the past? Odds are they'll do it again. Cost? It's more expensive to execute than to house someone for life. Revenge? Refer to original question. Deterent? Nah. Ludicrous concept at best.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby SpinnerMan » Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:18 pm

Conservative Christians are not pacifists.

I really don't get where or why you think punishing the guilty for crimes they have committed is inconsistent.

If you rape, especially a child, or murder someone, you should be punished harshly both for the deterrent effect on others, but also because you should be punished for your actions. This is just part of doing what it takes to protect the innocent from evil. Seriously, I don't see how it is not completely consistent and logical. Don't kill babies, kill the baby rapist. Makes sense to me. Unlike many nutjob liberals that think it is OK to kill the unborn baby, but not a born pigeon. That makes no sense to me.

I personally believe it is immoral to give a sentence of life without possibility of parole. I think that is cowardly. If a person has done something, or a series of things, that are so serious that he deserves to lose the totality of his life, then man up and take his life. Give him liberty or give him death to turn a phrase.

Glimmerjim wrote:It's more expensive to execute than to house someone for life.
It did not used to be. We need to fix that. I'm not convinced that is true, but it may be. This also shows the injustice of life without parole. If a man is given a death sentence, he will get a vastly better defense because there is a name to be made by setting him free. If he gets life without parole, well, he can rot since getting him off won't be as cool at the liberal social circles.

If I'm ever false accused, I really want to face the death penalty over life without parole for this reason.

Glimmerjim wrote:why don't we send monthly speeding tickets to those who have been convicted of speeding in the past
This is silly, but I think we should probably increase the cost of speeding tickets at least 10 fold. Raise the speed limits in most cases and then if you are 10 over :hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer: If you are 20 over, the car you are driving is gone. Can you see the deterrent effect of a teenage boy explaining that one to Dad? I know I would have been a vastly safer driver in my youth if this were the risk I faced as opposed to a ticket costing me a weekend of work.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby ScaupHunter » Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:29 pm

Deterrance is not a ludicrous argument. It keeps some prople from committing the crimes and eliminates those convicted of them from repeating the crime. The death penalty is a very effective deterrant. The only reason you see it as ludicrous today is that we don't apply it quickly or effectively in our time. Hence it does not work as a deterrant.

The old west saw a wide use of the hanging of criminals. Despite what the history books would have us believe, crime rates were very low in the old west. Why? Serious punishment, and the criminals in most cases very rapidly became dead. Either shot in the streets by citizens, hung by vigilantes, or hung by the courts. It was a tough time to be a criminal.

If you read the bible and it's stories of punishments for crimes, the death penalty was and is perfectly acceptable for major crimes. Modern people and some Christians want to act like they have " advanced" in their beliefs and no longer support it. When God returns to the Earth, what do they think he is going to do to the sinners? Cuddle them and make lovey noises? They will be punished for their sins. Some believe through eternal damnation, others that they will be burned from the Earth as the world is cleansed in fire. Either way they will experience the death penalty in a very permanent way. One short lived and one very long and protracted.

Speeders who have not harmed anyone would not be hanged or stoned in biblical times. Just call their car a chariot. A speeder who killed someone while driving recklessly would have been executed by the courts in bibilical times. There is a very large difference between the two acts. One harms no one, the other killed or permanently damaged someone. One is illegal, the other causes mortal harm to another person.

Cost and effectiveness in the death penalty are not covered in the bible and are thus frankly irrelevant. What is covered is just punishment for the severity of the crime. Death is quite appropriate for many crimes per Bible teaching. God has no problem with eliminating problem humans. The flood is a great example. God destroyed what by that time could have been millions of humans in one fell swoop. He had no problems having the Isrealites destroy entire nations. When they failed to kill them all he allowing them to be enslaved for their sins as a punishment

God is not just a loving being who forgives all wrongs. He is also a wrathful God that punishes your for your sins when you fail to repent.

There really is no conflict between Christianity and the death penalty. I have never read or found a conflict with it in the Bible. The attempt by some Christians to claim it is horrible and not to be practiced always seems to fall back to "Thou shalt not kill". That phrasing is a modern phrasing with the actual translation being "though shalt not murder". There is no prohibition anywhere in the Bible against killing violent or dangerous criminals. There is a clear declaration that an individual should not ever kill anyone unjustly ( murder ).
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby Glimmerjim » Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:42 pm

Methinks you are evading the central question, Spinner. According to the Christian Bible, is it for us to determine who is to live and who is to die? I realize that many throw caveats into this, such as self-defense or defense of another, etc., but when the Death Penalty is enacted it is upon an incarcerated person who committed his crime at least a decade ago and is housed in a solitary cell. Exactly who are we protecting by killing him?
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby Glimmerjim » Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:53 pm

ScaupHunter wrote:Deterrance is not a ludicrous argument. It keeps some prople from committing the crimes and eliminates those convicted of them from repeating the crime. The death penalty is a very effective deterrant. The only reason you see it as ludicrous today is that we don't apply it quickly or effectively in our time. Hence it does not work as a deterrant.

The old west saw a wide use of the hanging of criminals. Despite what the history books would have us believe, crime rates were very low in the old west. Why? Serious punishment, and the criminals in most cases very rapidly became dead. Either shot in the streets by citizens, hung by vigilantes, or hung by the courts. It was a tough time to be a criminal.

If you read the bible and it's stories of punishments for crimes, the death penalty was and is perfectly acceptable for major crimes. Modern people and some Christians want to act like they have " advanced" in their beliefs and no longer support it. When God returns to the Earth, what do they think he is going to do to the sinners? Cuddle them and make lovey noises? They will be punished for their sins. Some believe through eternal damnation, others that they will be burned from the Earth as the world is cleansed in fire. Either way they will experience the death penalty in a very permanent way. One short lived and one very long and protracted.
Sorry scaup. There are probably a total of two or three statements here that are not ripe for rebuttal but I am "just not into it that much." :lol3: So, to make it short and sweet, in your opinion we are the deciders of life and death based upon the most current view of our Judicial system, and the Christian Bible wholeheartedly supports this?
Speeders who have not harmed anyone would not be hanged or stoned in biblical times. Just call their car a chariot. A speeder who killed someone while driving recklessly would have been executed by the courts in bibilical times. There is a very large difference between the two acts. One harms no one, the other killed or permanently damaged someone. One is illegal, the other causes mortal harm to another person.

Cost and effectiveness in the death penalty are not covered in the bible and are thus frankly irrelevant. What is covered is just punishment for the severity of the crime. Death is quite appropriate for many crimes per Bible teaching. God has no problem with eliminating problem humans. The flood is a great example. God destroyed what by that time could have been millions of humans in one fell swoop. He had no problems having the Isrealites destroy entire nations. When they failed to kill them all he allowing them to be enslaved for their sins as a punishment

God is not just a loving being who forgives all wrongs. He is also a wrathful God that punishes your for your sins when you fail to repent.

There really is no conflict between Christianity and the death penalty. I have never read or found a conflict with it in the Bible. The attempt by some Christians to claim it is horrible and not to be practiced always seems to fall back to "Thou shalt not kill". That phrasing is a modern phrasing with the actual translation being "though shalt not murder". There is no prohibition anywhere in the Bible against killing violent or dangerous criminals. There is a clear declaration that an individual should not ever kill anyone unjustly ( murder ).
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby SpinnerMan » Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:57 pm

Glimmerjim wrote:Methinks you are evading the central question, Spinner. According to the Christian Bible, is it for us to determine who is to live and who is to die? I realize that many throw caveats into this, such as self-defense or defense of another, etc., but when the Death Penalty is enacted it is upon an incarcerated person who committed his crime at least a decade ago and is housed in a solitary cell. Exactly who are we protecting by killing him?

Your first flawed assumption is that I believe any person should ever spend a decade in a solitary cell. I believe that is evil. Punishment should be swift and certain. It should not be the debacle that we have today. Torture, mental or physical, is not just punishment. That is what is forbidden by our founders in the Christian ethic of no cruel and unusual punishment.

The punishment is a consequence of your actions. It is imposed upon you by your decisions. I am not killing you. You killed yourself when you chose to engage in an activity where the punishment was death. I just don't see where setting the punishment for the first offense of murder and rape as death as being cruel or unusual. Nor do I see setting it for repeated offense of lesser crimes. Commit armed robbery, get out after a year or two, do it again, OK, maybe 3 strikes and your dead, but at some point, if it should be a crime, you should be permanently prevented from committing that crime again. Death is not cruel and unusual punishment while mental and physical torture is, which some anti-death penalty people actual argue for as to why death is to easy. :no: That is wrong.

ScaupHunter wrote:he attempt by some Christians to claim it is horrible and not to be practiced always seems to fall back to "Thou shalt not kill". That phrasing is a modern phrasing with the actual translation being "though shalt not murder". There is no prohibition anywhere in the Bible against killing violent or dangerous criminals. There is a clear declaration that an individual should not ever kill anyone unjustly ( murder ).
Which you have to be totally ignorant of the Bible to believe it meant anything but thou shall not murder.

Do these people think David knocked Goliath unconscious? :huh:

And what do they think happened in Jericho after the walls came tumbling down? :huh:

It's right up there with people that must think Jesus turned the water to grape juice after the party had sucked down all the grape juice because they were so thirsty and needed more.

My friend dated an extremely naive 30 year old woman who still lived with her parents and probably would have a very difficult time not doing so. I really feel sorry for this girl. She was one of the religious people that the left likes to stereotype all Christians as. Her church doesn't believe in dinosaurs and all of that. However, we were driving back from Michigan and as any long trip conversation wonders sometimes in strange places. So Jesus turning water to wine came up. And she interjected that it was the best wine they had ever tasted. I said of course it was. After 3 days of drinking, it all tastes like the best ever. She did not find that funny in the least :lol3: :lol3: :lol3: I really wanted to watch the Invention of Lying with Her, but they broke up before we had the chance. I'm guessing she wouldn't have been amused.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby clampdaddy » Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:58 pm

Alex, I'll take "an eye for an eye" for $200.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby ScaupHunter » Wed Nov 27, 2013 5:44 pm

Rebut away Jim, you are going to lose. I have a very solid knowledge base of the Bible, it's words, and what it means. The bible really is not open to interpretation. It is the word of God and as such means what it says within the context of each sections overall message. More than a few Christians who have chose to interpret it to their world view are going to find out the hard way that was not an option.

Let me make this very clear, I will never take the word of a nonbeliever on what the bible says or means. By the defintion of being a non-believer you have no clue what you are talking about. Now if we want to talk about bad Christians, hypocrites, and the problems with organized religion, I am sure you and I can go back and for for hours on end.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby Glimmerjim » Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:04 pm

ScaupHunter wrote: The bible really is not open to interpretation.

I realize that. It is stated by every wildly differing interpreter of it. From the Westboro Baptist Church to the snake handlers, it is simply up to no interpretation but their own. :thumbsup: Silly people. Amazing how so many are just wrong, ain't it? 'Cept for you, of course. :thumbsup:
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby cartervj » Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:10 pm

Pathetic attempt at comparing a innocent child to an evil being. Now if the Death penalty was used for lessor offenses you might be on to something.

Now, how one believes is up to their interpretation, snake handlers to Catholics, God will decide whom truly believes versus posers.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby Glimmerjim » Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:28 pm

cartervj wrote:Pathetic attempt at comparing a innocent child to an evil being. Now if the Death penalty was used for lessor offenses you might be on to something.

Now, how one believes is up to their interpretation, snake handlers to Catholics, God will decide whom truly believes versus posers.

Seriously, Carter, I had no intentions of comparing capital punishment to abortion, nor do I equate them. I must admit I did anticipate that subject coming up, and was curious how it would manifest itself, but it really had nothing to do with my question.
As far as your second line, I agree. How one believes is entirely up to them. I would wager that more non-believers/atheists/agnostics truly adhere to this belief than "believers" of whatever ilk.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby vincentpa » Wed Nov 27, 2013 6:40 pm

Pay per view executions!

Executions are sanctioned in the Bible. Nice try Jim.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby cartervj » Wed Nov 27, 2013 7:58 pm

Glimmerjim wrote:
cartervj wrote:Pathetic attempt at comparing a innocent child to an evil being. Now if the Death penalty was used for lessor offenses you might be on to something.

Now, how one believes is up to their interpretation, snake handlers to Catholics, God will decide whom truly believes versus posers.

Seriously, Carter, I had no intentions of comparing capital punishment to abortion, nor do I equate them. I must admit I did anticipate that subject coming up, and was curious how it would manifest itself, but it really had nothing to do with my question.
As far as your second line, I agree. How one believes is entirely up to them. I would wager that more non-believers/atheists/agnostics truly adhere to this belief than "believers" of whatever ilk.



Had to :umm: you a little

and I agree, one good friend that is agnostic is more honest than anyone I have ever known, myself included :big grin:
probably why I prefer sane nondenominational Churches
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby blackduckdog2 » Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:03 pm

As Frederick Douglass said of the slaveholder’s religion in the South long ago, “Between the Christianity of this land, and the Christianity of Christ, I recognize the widest possible difference.”
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby Glimmerjim » Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:31 pm

cartervj wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:
cartervj wrote:Pathetic attempt at comparing a innocent child to an evil being. Now if the Death penalty was used for lessor offenses you might be on to something.

Now, how one believes is up to their interpretation, snake handlers to Catholics, God will decide whom truly believes versus posers.

Seriously, Carter, I had no intentions of comparing capital punishment to abortion, nor do I equate them. I must admit I did anticipate that subject coming up, and was curious how it would manifest itself, but it really had nothing to do with my question.
As far as your second line, I agree. How one believes is entirely up to them. I would wager that more non-believers/atheists/agnostics truly adhere to this belief than "believers" of whatever ilk.



Had to :umm: you a little

and I agree, one good friend that is agnostic is more honest than anyone I have ever known, myself included :big grin:
probably why I prefer sane nondenominational Churches

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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby Glimmerjim » Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:38 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:As Frederick Douglass said of the slaveholder’s religion in the South long ago, “Between the Christianity of this land, and the Christianity of Christ, I recognize the widest possible difference.”

As what I am sure most would label as a non-Christian, the differences never cease to flat-out amaze me. Almost as much as the constructs some devise to minimalize or negate them. I am a believer, however. In fact, I believe I'll have a beer!
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby Glimmerjim » Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:58 pm

vincentpa wrote:Pay per view executions!

Executions are sanctioned in the Bible. Nice try Jim.

I am sincerely curious, vp, it wasn't a "try". Please advise as to where in the New Testament executions are sanctioned, or even how to research it for myself. I would be very interested as my original question was simply that...a question. It wasn't a set-up for an attempted knock-down, or even a criticism. Just a rumination. As an admittedly poor scholar of any aspect of the Bible it just doesn't strike me, as my preconceptions lead me to believe, as Christ-like.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby clampdaddy » Wed Nov 27, 2013 10:00 pm

Glimmerjim wrote:I am sincerely curious, vp, it wasn't a "try". Please advise as to where in the New Testament executions are sanctioned, or even how to research it for myself. I would be very interested as my original question was simply that...a question. It wasn't a set-up for an attempted knock-down, or even a criticism. Just a rumination. As an admittedly poor scholar of any aspect of the Bible it just doesn't strike me, as my preconceptions lead me to believe, as Christ-like.


Check this one out Jim. It gets into the New and old testaments and the areas that many people believe contradict each other. http://kgov.com/what-does-the-bible-say ... ty-and-God
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:12 am

blackduckdog2 wrote:As Frederick Douglass said of the slaveholder’s religion in the South long ago, “Between the Christianity of this land, and the Christianity of Christ, I recognize the widest possible difference.”

And that I would agree, but the Christian abolitionists. This was not true, was it. :no:

So a point that is not in disagreement, is your contribution?

Anything thoughts that are not a non sequitur to offer on this topic?
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby WTN10 » Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:49 am

Glimmerjim wrote:I am just curious. How do conservative Christians, specifically those who prattle on endlessly about the illogic of the liberal mind, justify the usage of the death penalty. Serious question. Just to circumvent the obvious, if it were to prevent those who have a history of crime from doing so again in the future, why don't we send monthly speeding tickets to those who have been convicted of speeding in the past? Odds are they'll do it again. Cost? It's more expensive to execute than to house someone for life. Revenge? Refer to original question. Deterent? Nah. Ludicrous concept at best.


And for your lifeblood I will require a reckoning: from every beast I will require it and from man. From his fellow man I will require a reckoning for the life of man.

“Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed,
for God made man in his own image.

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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby vincentpa » Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:52 am

WTN10 wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:I am just curious. How do conservative Christians, specifically those who prattle on endlessly about the illogic of the liberal mind, justify the usage of the death penalty. Serious question. Just to circumvent the obvious, if it were to prevent those who have a history of crime from doing so again in the future, why don't we send monthly speeding tickets to those who have been convicted of speeding in the past? Odds are they'll do it again. Cost? It's more expensive to execute than to house someone for life. Revenge? Refer to original question. Deterent? Nah. Ludicrous concept at best.


And for your lifeblood I will require a reckoning: from every beast I will require it and from man. From his fellow man I will require a reckoning for the life of man.

“Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed,
for God made man in his own image.

Genesis 9:5-6


Thank you.


Thank you.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby WTN10 » Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:56 am

And before you get into quoting Leviticus to me, that comes from Genesis, specially within the context of the covenant made with Noah. While this maxim is reflected in the civil code God gave to Israel, the mandate itself predates that code, and was given to Noah, the father of every human being alive at that time and the ancestor of any who lived after. Leviticus is as relevant to this passage as Dickens' A Christmas Carol.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby Glimmerjim » Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:04 pm

WTN10 wrote:And before you get into quoting Leviticus to me, that comes from Genesis, specially within the context of the covenant made with Noah. While this maxim is reflected in the civil code God gave to Israel, the mandate itself predates that code, and was given to Noah, the father of every human being alive at that time and the ancestor of any who lived after. Leviticus is as relevant to this passage as Dickens' A Christmas Carol.

I am the first to admit my ignorance in this subject, and that is why I had to pose the question. I can only wish that I were conversant enough to use a Leviticus quotation as a rebuttal! Not that I have a desire to rebut any of this, just as a point of clarification. However, and this is just from memory, I recall conversations in the past that compared the Bible to the Koran, and it was expressed that the Old Testament violence was essentially superseded by the New Testament. This was based mostly, as I recall, on chronology...ie., through time, the Bible became more about forgiveness and acceptance and the Koran became more violent. This was a MAJOR point of condemnation of the Muslim religion at the time. Do I remember correctly?
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby Glimmerjim » Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:07 pm

clampdaddy wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:I am sincerely curious, vp, it wasn't a "try". Please advise as to where in the New Testament executions are sanctioned, or even how to research it for myself. I would be very interested as my original question was simply that...a question. It wasn't a set-up for an attempted knock-down, or even a criticism. Just a rumination. As an admittedly poor scholar of any aspect of the Bible it just doesn't strike me, as my preconceptions lead me to believe, as Christ-like.


Check this one out Jim. It gets into the New and old testaments and the areas that many people believe contradict each other. http://kgov.com/what-does-the-bible-say ... ty-and-God

Thanks cd! I'm on it! :thumbsup:
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby ScaupHunter » Thu Nov 28, 2013 12:19 pm

Jim, you mentioned earlier how many religions believe they are they only true religion. That is often very true. I for one firmly believe that a true believer in any Christian faith can be saved. How would they be condemned to hell if they are true to their faith and live as God wants them to live! I believe in Salvation through faith, not works. God judges you based on your relationship with him. Good works and helping others is an extension of being a good Christian and feeling the love of God in your life.


That begs the next question? Are only Christians saved? I would say no. If a person lives a godly life, helps others, and has the love of God in his or her soul and life despite not knowing God, I believe they can be saved.

Another question comes up when that same person learns of God and rejects him. Are they still saved? The bible says no at that point.
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