Christianity and the Death Penalty

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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby boney fingers » Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:04 am

Next question, is sucking the brains out of a late term baby counterproductive to the human race?
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby assateague » Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:32 am

blackduckdog2 wrote:
boney fingers wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
boney fingers wrote:
Dingbatter 2 wrote:In it's pure form, the death penalty is not and never has been a deterrent but a punishment. You murder someone, you get murdered back. The problem is that the punishment is not swift so there really is no punishment. Most death row inmates may as well have life imprisonment.

Christians have been killing each other and everyone else since the beginning of their religion, as have most other religions. We go to war and pray for our troops to kill the other guy, his family, friends, children, every living thing associated with him because he is "evil". Christians think Muslims are evil, Muslims think Christians are evil. Protestants think Catholics are evil, Catholics think Protestants are evil. Sunni's think Shiites are evil while Shiites think Sunni's are evil. The same old story. Religion by and large is rooted in ignorance, fear, and death. All religious faiths have a closet full of bloody skeletons. The death penalty is one.

I try to keep things simple. To me there are human beings and there are Homo sapiens. To be a human being is not a right but a privilege. You must live and work in the society that you are a member of, and abide by the customs of that society to be a human being. Once you step across that line, and you slaughter innocents then you are no longer a human being, but a Homo sapien , a savage, an animal, and you should be treated like one. Not abused or tortured, but dealt with just like we would deal with any animal. Either put them down or put them in a cage. As for death row and the death penalty, I really doubt there are many in there that had a spotless record before they killed someone. Death row by and large is full of Homo sapiens and not human beings.



The irony of it all, is that without religion, then there is no right or wrong. Without a higher power, the concept of right and wrong is meaningless.

Preposterous


Can an animal do something wrong? Without a supreme deity, humans are no more than animals and therefore can be held to no higher standard than they are.

An animal can do something that is counterproductive to the needs of its fellow animals, and its fellow animals will damned well let him know it, won't they? We aren't any different, and a hen mallard willing to sacrifice herself for the survival of her clutch is nothing less than the evolutionary glimmer of nascent morality. Perhaps YOU would devolve into Charles Manson in the absence of an overarching notion of divine authority, but don't presume that the rest of us are similarly debauched



Wait, wait, wait. Isn't this the EXACT same argument that you use against a free market? That without the government and a plethora of regulations, we would all devolve into a clan of hedonistic robber barons, selling mercury-contaminated milk to babies and the weak?

Of course it is. But now you pooh-pooh it away. I wonder why- maybe because it isn't helpful to your point of view in this case?
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Dec 02, 2013 6:18 am

Glimmerjim wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote: Conservatives simply acknowledge and accept reality. Liberals, well, not so much. They are Utopians.



C'mon Spinner, cut the crap. This is an over-used and far too accepted homily of the right. Liberals understand reality just as well as conservatives. They are simply not as willing to accept a poor situation as an unchangeable status quo and try to come up with improvements. Were you on a sports team with a less than impressive record, would you want a coach that says "Well, I guess we're simply not as good as the other teams, but keep plugging away.", or a coach that says "We haven't done well in what we've been doing, so let's try this. It may work, it may not. If it doesn't we'll try something else"? I'd rather go down in flames making changes trying to better myself than rust away sticking to my guns.

I do not see any sign of that in their policies. If they understand it, that is far worse. That means they are intentionally doing these stupid things. Look at the Obama organized communities. If you believe these so-called leaders are people that truly understand reality that is a scary, scary thought. Although Jim, I am coming around to your position and that means they are just evil in their intent.

blackduckdog2 wrote:Gimme a break…. the Christian right is OBSESSED with perfecting the proclivities of mankind.They just have to project the desire onto a deity figure in order to get on board. No difference WHATSOEVER!!

Preposterous. Think for a second and you can find some big glaring examples that prove you wrong.

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What does the Christian right believe should have happened when the test showed Trig was going to be a Down's Syndrome kid? What does the Obama left believe should have happened?

But yes, we all claim to want the best possible for everyone. Some believe individuals have rights and others believe those rights can be sacrificed for the greater good.

The key question is what are the constraints that must be lived by in an attempt to achieve the best for everyone and who gets to define the best for each individual?
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby vincentpa » Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:08 am

blackduckdog2 wrote:An animal can do something that is counterproductive to the needs of its fellow animals, and its fellow animals will damned well let him know it, won't they? We aren't any different, and a hen mallard willing to sacrifice herself for the survival of her clutch is nothing less than the evolutionary glimmer of nascent morality. Perhaps YOU would devolve into Charles Manson in the absence of an overarching notion of divine authority, but don't presume that the rest of us are similarly debauched



Speak for yourself.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby blackduckdog2 » Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:56 am

vincentpa wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:An animal can do something that is counterproductive to the needs of its fellow animals, and its fellow animals will damned well let him know it, won't they? We aren't any different, and a hen mallard willing to sacrifice herself for the survival of her clutch is nothing less than the evolutionary glimmer of nascent morality. Perhaps YOU would devolve into Charles Manson in the absence of an overarching notion of divine authority, but don't presume that the rest of us are similarly debauched



Speak for yourself.

To which particular aspect of my comment do you take exception? The manner in which a notion of divinity is filtered through the human experience can hardly be discussed without a little generalizing. And while I absolutely buy into that divine notion; I'm at all kinds of odds with mainstream religious folks as to its origin in particular, and its purposed effect in general.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby clampdaddy » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:17 am

Glimmerjim wrote:
clampdaddy wrote:
Dingbatter 2 wrote:In it's pure form, the death penalty is not and never has been a deterrent but a punishment.......


If it weren't for fear of prison or death, I can think of a few instances in my life where I would've offed somebody.

Really, cd? I don't think I can say the same. Not trying to sound superior, just never wanted anyone dead that much. A righteously good beating for some, perhaps with party favors like saps or rolls of quarters or a couple of cans of beer in a good sock? Oh yeah, I'd have been all on board a few times! Not that I've done it, but I wouldn't have hesitated given the green light!

Not within the last 15 or so years but the testosterone levels of a late teenaged male will make you do and think things that "normal" people wouldn't. :lol3:

One instance comes to mind. Without going into details, my cousin who is the sweetist girl anyone could eve meet was getting treated very, very, very badly by her asshat of a boyfriend. When I found out I saw red and in all seriousness, I wanted to beat him within an inch of his life and then take it two inches further. Looking back, religion or morality isn't what kept me from doing it. The thought of how it would affect my life did.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby vincentpa » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:31 am

blackduckdog2 wrote:
vincentpa wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:An animal can do something that is counterproductive to the needs of its fellow animals, and its fellow animals will damned well let him know it, won't they? We aren't any different, and a hen mallard willing to sacrifice herself for the survival of her clutch is nothing less than the evolutionary glimmer of nascent morality. Perhaps YOU would devolve into Charles Manson in the absence of an overarching notion of divine authority, but don't presume that the rest of us are similarly debauched



Speak for yourself.

To which particular aspect of my comment do you take exception? The manner in which a notion of divinity is filtered through the human experience can hardly be discussed without a little generalizing. And while I absolutely buy into that divine notion; I'm at all kinds of odds with mainstream religious folks as to its origin in particular, and its purposed effect in general.


No, about the Charles Manson portion. I'm thinking not really like Manson, probably more akin to the vikings or feudal lords.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:46 am

blackduckdog2 wrote:The manner in which a notion of divinity is filtered through the human experience can hardly be discussed without a little generalizing. And while I absolutely buy into that divine notion; I'm at all kinds of odds with mainstream religious folks as to its origin in particular, and its purposed effect in general.

This sounds like you have a view of divinity that is totally filtered by your human experience. Are you sure you are not engaged in projection, another common human reaction?

How can you absolutely buy into divinity and disagree about its origin? Maybe I am taking you too literal, but the origins of the divine are supernatural or they are not really divine are they? If it comes from the natural world, it is not divine.

What is the purposed effect of the divine in your opinion?

I'd also be really curious about what you define as mainstream religious folks. I'm guessing they your filter of human experience has led you to a very different view of what is mainstream than what mine has.

Definitions are very important for trying to discuss these things because there are a lot of key words in what you said that I know that I may not know what you mean by them.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby Glimmerjim » Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:01 pm

boney fingers wrote:Next question, is sucking the brains out of a late term baby counterproductive to the human race?

To answer absolutely objectively, not in the least. The only thing, on a strictly objective level, it would be counter-productive to is the rise in population. On a subjective level, of course, it is too simple of a question. It's like asking "Is death bad?"
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby blackduckdog2 » Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:43 pm

vincentpa wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
vincentpa wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:An animal can do something that is counterproductive to the needs of its fellow animals, and its fellow animals will damned well let him know it, won't they? We aren't any different, and a hen mallard willing to sacrifice herself for the survival of her clutch is nothing less than the evolutionary glimmer of nascent morality. Perhaps YOU would devolve into Charles Manson in the absence of an overarching notion of divine authority, but don't presume that the rest of us are similarly debauched



Speak for yourself.

To which particular aspect of my comment do you take exception? The manner in which a notion of divinity is filtered through the human experience can hardly be discussed without a little generalizing. And while I absolutely buy into that divine notion; I'm at all kinds of odds with mainstream religious folks as to its origin in particular, and its purposed effect in general.


No, about the Charles Manson portion. I'm thinking not really like Manson, probably more akin to the vikings or feudal lords.

Well, my Helter Skelter comment was directed more at boney fingers, who brought up the "no God=no morality" canard, to which theory, you've no doubt surmised, I can't subscribe. It was a little tongue in cheek, and not intended as a precise description of the chaos into which mainstream believers would fall if God were to suddenly vacate the premises. Vikings and feudal lords is a curious choice as alternative, though, since the horrors inflicted by each group have surely been duplicated by devout Christians (not that I see this solely as a question of Christianity…..it's more one of ethical epistemology, and covers a hell of a lot more ground than any one system of belief)
Spinner…..I don't have a personal God, as you know. As to what form my sense of the divine takes in lieu of that, definitions just won't hang. But I can tell you I see plenty of divine outside my office window (just like you), and suspect the only difference between our experience in the natural world is that you see divinity as having been put there, while I'd say it grew wild
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby blackduckdog2 » Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:21 pm

assateague wrote:Wait, wait, wait. Isn't this the EXACT same argument that you use against a free market? That without the government and a plethora of regulations, we would all devolve into a clan of hedonistic robber barons, selling mercury-contaminated milk to babies and the weak?

Of course it is. But now you pooh-pooh it away. I wonder why- maybe because it isn't helpful to your point of view in this case?

As usual, you've way overstated my position because……. I wonder why- maybe because it isn't helpful to your point of view in this case? I say morality can exist in the absence of a personal God. Doesn't mean everyone will follow the angels of their better nature now, does it? Or, conversely, it doesn't mean that simply because a moral code is breached on a regular basis, that no moral code exists. That one was really quite a reach, AT
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby blackduckdog2 » Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:27 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote: Conservatives simply acknowledge and accept reality. Liberals, well, not so much. They are Utopians.



C'mon Spinner, cut the crap. This is an over-used and far too accepted homily of the right. Liberals understand reality just as well as conservatives. They are simply not as willing to accept a poor situation as an unchangeable status quo and try to come up with improvements. Were you on a sports team with a less than impressive record, would you want a coach that says "Well, I guess we're simply not as good as the other teams, but keep plugging away.", or a coach that says "We haven't done well in what we've been doing, so let's try this. It may work, it may not. If it doesn't we'll try something else"? I'd rather go down in flames making changes trying to better myself than rust away sticking to my guns.

I do not see any sign of that in their policies. If they understand it, that is far worse. That means they are intentionally doing these stupid things. Look at the Obama organized communities. If you believe these so-called leaders are people that truly understand reality that is a scary, scary thought. Although Jim, I am coming around to your position and that means they are just evil in their intent.

blackduckdog2 wrote:Gimme a break…. the Christian right is OBSESSED with perfecting the proclivities of mankind.They just have to project the desire onto a deity figure in order to get on board. No difference WHATSOEVER!!

Preposterous. Think for a second and you can find some big glaring examples that prove you wrong.

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What does the Christian right believe should have happened when the test showed Trig was going to be a Down's Syndrome kid? What does the Obama left believe should have happened?

But yes, we all claim to want the best possible for everyone. Some believe individuals have rights and others believe those rights can be sacrificed for the greater good.

The key question is what are the constraints that must be lived by in an attempt to achieve the best for everyone and who gets to define the best for each individual?

I'll say it again…….a belief that we should accept the wrongful execution of a few so that we may reap the benefits of execution at large is taking away the rights of the "few" for the good of the cause, and in pretty dramatic fashion. Dance around it all you want, that is a textbook example of going for the greater good. There is NO way around it
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:49 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:I'll say it again…….a belief that we should accept the wrongful execution of a few so that we may reap the benefits of execution at large is taking away the rights of the "few" for the good of the cause, and in pretty dramatic fashion. Dance around it all you want, that is a textbook example of going for the greater good. There is NO way around it

If we do not accept the UNINTENTIONAL wrongful punishment of a few, we CANNOT punish anyone.

If you want to believe that is a greater good argument, so be it.

However, I believe the intent to harm a few innocent people for the benefit of society is what is meant by a greater good argument.

Obama lying and taking away the health insurance that people wanted is a classic greater good argument.

Accepting that if we allow cars, there will be accidents, is not, but if you wish to lump them all together.

I am only referring to intentionally harming people as opposed to accidents that are inevitable as part of any human endeavor and a wrongful conviction is an accident. If not, then there are people that MUST be held criminally liable because they lied or otherwise manipulated the system.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby Indaswamp » Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:51 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:I'll say it again…….a belief that we should accept the wrongful execution of a few so that we may reap the benefits of execution at large is taking away the rights of the "few" for the good of the cause, and in pretty dramatic fashion. Dance around it all you want, that is a textbook example of going for the greater good. There is NO way around it

If we do not accept the UNINTENTIONAL wrongful punishment of a few, we CANNOT punish anyone.

If you want to believe that is a greater good argument, so be it.

However, I believe the intent to harm a few innocent people for the benefit of society is what is meant by a greater good argument.

Obama lying and taking away the health insurance that people wanted is a classic greater good argument.

Accepting that if we allow cars, there will be accidents, is not, but if you wish to lump them all together.

I am only referring to intentionally harming people as opposed to accidents that are inevitable as part of any human endeavor and a wrongful conviction is an accident. If not, then there are people that MUST be held criminally liable because they lied or otherwise manipulated the system.

well put spinnerman. I've been following this thread and yes there is a distinction, which you have pointed out in your post.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby assateague » Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:05 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:
assateague wrote:Wait, wait, wait. Isn't this the EXACT same argument that you use against a free market? That without the government and a plethora of regulations, we would all devolve into a clan of hedonistic robber barons, selling mercury-contaminated milk to babies and the weak?

Of course it is. But now you pooh-pooh it away. I wonder why- maybe because it isn't helpful to your point of view in this case?

As usual, you've way overstated my position because……. I wonder why- maybe because it isn't helpful to your point of view in this case? I say morality can exist in the absence of a personal God. Doesn't mean everyone will follow the angels of their better nature now, does it? Or, conversely, it doesn't mean that simply because a moral code is breached on a regular basis, that no moral code exists. That one was really quite a reach, AT



No, it wasn't.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby boney fingers » Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:51 am

Glimmerjim wrote:
boney fingers wrote:Next question, is sucking the brains out of a late term baby counterproductive to the human race?

To answer absolutely objectively, not in the least. The only thing, on a strictly objective level, it would be counter-productive to is the rise in population. On a subjective level, of course, it is too simple of a question. It's like asking "Is death bad?"


How about exterminating a race of people for the betterment of mankind? What about killing off the sick and elderly to ease the burden on the productive class; I do this every day on the farm.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby SpinnerMan » Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:05 am

boney fingers wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:
boney fingers wrote:Next question, is sucking the brains out of a late term baby counterproductive to the human race?

To answer absolutely objectively, not in the least. The only thing, on a strictly objective level, it would be counter-productive to is the rise in population. On a subjective level, of course, it is too simple of a question. It's like asking "Is death bad?"


How about exterminating a race of people for the betterment of mankind? What about killing off the sick and elderly to ease the burden on the productive class; I do this every day on the farm.

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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby ScaupHunter » Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:52 am

boney fingers wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:
boney fingers wrote:Next question, is sucking the brains out of a late term baby counterproductive to the human race?

To answer absolutely objectively, not in the least. The only thing, on a strictly objective level, it would be counter-productive to is the rise in population. On a subjective level, of course, it is too simple of a question. It's like asking "Is death bad?"


How about exterminating a race of people for the betterment of mankind? What about killing off the sick and elderly to ease the burden on the productive class; I do this every day on the farm.


Do you eat the victims?
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby Indaswamp » Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:50 pm

A more interesting discussion would be 'Islam and the death penalty'....... :hi:
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby SpinnerMan » Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:58 pm

Indaswamp wrote:A more interesting discussion would be 'Islam and the death penalty'....... :hi:

Why is there someone that thinks it is inconsistent with their values? :huh:

Maybe ohioboy knows some Muslims that oppose the death penalty.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby ScaupHunter » Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:23 pm

I don't think he understand that the Muslims he talks to are as likely to be lying to him as not.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby Glimmerjim » Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:25 pm

boney fingers wrote:Next question, is sucking the brains out of a late term baby counterproductive to the human race?

Glimmerjim wrote: To answer absolutely objectively, not in the least. The only thing, on a strictly objective level, it would be counter-productive to is the rise in population. On a subjective level, of course, it is too simple of a question. It's like asking "Is death bad?"


boney fingers wrote: How about exterminating a race of people for the betterment of mankind? What about killing off the sick and elderly to ease the burden on the productive class; I do this every day on the farm.

To answer absolutely objectively, not in the least. The only thing, on a strictly objective level, it would be counter-productive to is the rise in population. On a subjective level, of course, it is too simple of a question. It's like asking "Is death bad?"
I guess the only thing to do is to keep repeating my point in the hopes that eventually it sinks in. Then, we can begin to move on to the next level.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby Glimmerjim » Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:33 pm

ScaupHunter wrote:
boney fingers wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:
boney fingers wrote:Next question, is sucking the brains out of a late term baby counterproductive to the human race?

To answer absolutely objectively, not in the least. The only thing, on a strictly objective level, it would be counter-productive to is the rise in population. On a subjective level, of course, it is too simple of a question. It's like asking "Is death bad?"


How about exterminating a race of people for the betterment of mankind? What about killing off the sick and elderly to ease the burden on the productive class; I do this every day on the farm.


Do you eat the victims?

For those slow on the pickup.......yes. On a purely objective level it would be a positive to not waste the protein. If anyone here can grasp the concept applied when I stipulate "....on a purely objective level....", please help me to interpret for those who can't. We need to solidify a foundation before moving on to build something on it. At this point we have a bunch of guys standing around saying "Let's build the foundation out of jello. It's purty." ......"Jello? That's just stupid. It tastes so good everyone would eat it and we'd never get anything built!"....."Well then let's put poison in it........" etc etc etc ad infinitum.
Let's try to agree Jello is not the best medium for a structural foundation and go from there....kay guys?
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby ScaupHunter » Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:24 pm

Theoretically speaking, If we make the Jello dense enough it could make a sound foundation. Are you limiting our add mixtures or are we allowed to play with the Jello concept? Also can we use piles driven to refusal in the Jello to firm up that foundation you are looking for? Are floating foundations allowed?
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby Glimmerjim » Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:45 pm

ScaupHunter wrote:Theoretically speaking, If we make the Jello dense enough it could make a sound foundation. Are you limiting our add mixtures or are we allowed to play with the Jello concept? Also can we use piles driven to refusal in the Jello to firm up that foundation you are looking for? Are floating foundations allowed?

:lol3: :beer:
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