Christianity and the Death Penalty

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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby blackduckdog2 » Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:25 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:if we as a society are going to take on the role of punisher (as we must) then we fall prey to all the attendant psychological and spiritual pitfalls that placing oneself in such a position of power and superiority entails.
So if we do what we must, then we will fall prey? :huh:
Reading comprehension? Or simple obtuserosity?
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:37 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:if we as a society are going to take on the role of punisher (as we must) then we fall prey to all the attendant psychological and spiritual pitfalls that placing oneself in such a position of power and superiority entails.
So if we do what we must, then we will fall prey? :huh:
Reading comprehension? Or simple obtuserosity?

You said we fall prey if we do as we must. How else should one comprehend that? :huh:
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby blackduckdog2 » Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:05 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:if we as a society are going to take on the role of punisher (as we must) then we fall prey to all the attendant psychological and spiritual pitfalls that placing oneself in such a position of power and superiority entails.
So if we do what we must, then we will fall prey? :huh:
Reading comprehension? Or simple obtuserosity?

You said we fall prey if we do as we must. How else should one comprehend that? :huh:

Simply doing as we must doesn't eliminate the consequences of that action, and the effects it will have on us. It may be the best (or even the only) course, but that doesn't mean there's no downside to be dealt with
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Dec 05, 2013 2:29 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:if we as a society are going to take on the role of punisher (as we must) then we fall prey to all the attendant psychological and spiritual pitfalls that placing oneself in such a position of power and superiority entails.
So if we do what we must, then we will fall prey? :huh:
Reading comprehension? Or simple obtuserosity?

You said we fall prey if we do as we must. How else should one comprehend that? :huh:

Simply doing as we must doesn't eliminate the consequences of that action, and the effects it will have on us. It may be the best (or even the only) course, but that doesn't mean there's no downside to be dealt with

I didn't say that it did did I. So who has the reading comprehension problem? :huh:

I was just repeating your pointless point.

Although fall prey is quite different than dealing with reality.

Now, if you would just take that logic of the attendant psychological and spiritual pitfalls placing oneself in such a position of power and superiority entails WHEN IT IS NOT SOMETHING WE MUST DO, you would be a right-wing conservative.

It is precisely these pitfalls of power that we must guard against whether it is law enforcement or any other thing government MUST do. This is why we spread the power. Decentralize the power. Provide redundancies. And all the things that us right-wingers believe so strongly in.

This is why we have 12 jurors. No individual is in the position to order someone to their death, but each has the absolute power to prevent it at least temporarily. Even that has pitfalls, but I believe it is the best we can do.

Please apply this logic to the power of government. It is something right-wingers take very seriously. Small decentralized government is the answer. If it can be done at a lower level, there is no excuse for consolidating the power to a small minority of people at the higher level precisely because of the attendant psychological and spiritual pitfalls that placing them in such a position of power and superiority entails.

Everything I talked about as far as punishing all those that lie under oath, political prosecutions, etc. were explicitly focused on addressing just these pitfalls. It is at the core of conservative views on government and our Constitution as intended.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby ScaupHunter » Thu Dec 05, 2013 3:05 pm

BDD2,

You are arguing an irrelevant point. If you punish criminals are you going to deal with other ramifications? Yes. If you don't punish them are you going to deal with worse ramifications as a society? That answer is a firm yes. One leads to the decay of society. The other leads to reduced crime and destruction of the criminals involved.

I for one have no issues with hangings for a lot less than violent crimes. We used to hang horse thieves. I say we hang car thieves. It really is the same thing. Why? It is a multibillion dollar underground industry that we can put a stop to quite simply be starting to execute the criminals involved. It exists at that level today because we tolerate it and treat it as a joke. Will that cause our society to be less civilized? Some would say yes, I would say no. Will the victims, criminals, families, and society have to deal with killing them. Yep. So what? That is part and parcel of having a criminal justice system.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby blackduckdog2 » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:18 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:if we as a society are going to take on the role of punisher (as we must) then we fall prey to all the attendant psychological and spiritual pitfalls that placing oneself in such a position of power and superiority entails.
So if we do what we must, then we will fall prey? :huh:
Reading comprehension? Or simple obtuserosity?

You said we fall prey if we do as we must. How else should one comprehend that? :huh:

Simply doing as we must doesn't eliminate the consequences of that action, and the effects it will have on us. It may be the best (or even the only) course, but that doesn't mean there's no downside to be dealt with

I didn't say that it did did I. So who has the reading comprehension problem? :huh:

I was just repeating your pointless point.

Although fall prey is quite different than dealing with reality.

Now, if you would just take that logic of the attendant psychological and spiritual pitfalls placing oneself in such a position of power and superiority entails WHEN IT IS NOT SOMETHING WE MUST DO, you would be a right-wing conservative.

It is precisely these pitfalls of power that we must guard against whether it is law enforcement or any other thing government MUST do. This is why we spread the power. Decentralize the power. Provide redundancies. And all the things that us right-wingers believe so strongly in.

This is why we have 12 jurors. No individual is in the position to order someone to their death, but each has the absolute power to prevent it at least temporarily. Even that has pitfalls, but I believe it is the best we can do.

Please apply this logic to the power of government. It is something right-wingers take very seriously. Small decentralized government is the answer. If it can be done at a lower level, there is no excuse for consolidating the power to a small minority of people at the higher level precisely because of the attendant psychological and spiritual pitfalls that placing them in such a position of power and superiority entails.

Everything I talked about as far as punishing all those that lie under oath, political prosecutions, etc. were explicitly focused on addressing just these pitfalls. It is at the core of conservative views on government and our Constitution as intended.

No, Spinner, you are totally off the mark with regard to the pitfalls I refer to. I don't know why I try to engage you on these subtleties
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:19 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:No, Spinner, you are totally off the mark with regard to the pitfalls I refer to. I don't know why I try to engage you on these subtleties

So what are those pitfalls that you refer?

Maybe they aren't subtle. Maybe they are just nonsense. :yes:
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Dec 05, 2013 4:27 pm

BTW, I think there is a lot to this statement and it goes way beyond the death penalty.

blackduckdog2 wrote:remember, though, that I'm the only one I'm trusting with the power to do so


Does that apply to life in prison without parole?

Where does that end?

What does it say about you?

Yeah, yeah, I know, you were trying to make a subtle point that only you are smart enough to understand, blah, blah, blah.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby ScaupHunter » Thu Dec 05, 2013 5:28 pm

He is trying to enage you on the ideas that we are all morally and emotionally damaged by the destruction of another life. Toss in the demeaning of a human being through exectution and the deeper statement that makes about our society as a whole. Then you need to dig into the personal gratification and vengeance effect. Which involves a segment of our society that would thrive on and enjoy commercializing it and allowing those who enjoy that type of thing to watch.

What he seem to really be saying is that he doesn't agree with us being "barbarians" and wants you to consider the higher issues. All the time denying that humans are barbarians and the veneer of civilization is thin. New Orleans after Katrina is an excellent example.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby blackduckdog2 » Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:00 pm

ScaupHunter wrote:He is trying to enage you on the ideas that we are all morally and emotionally damaged by the destruction of another life. Toss in the demeaning of a human being through exectution and the deeper statement that makes about our society as a whole. Then you need to dig into the personal gratification and vengeance effect. Which involves a segment of our society that would thrive on and enjoy commercializing it and allowing those who enjoy that type of thing to watch.

What he seem to really be saying is that he doesn't agree with us being "barbarians" and wants you to consider the higher issues. All the time denying that humans are barbarians and the veneer of civilization is thin. New Orleans after Katrina is an excellent example.

That's not bad..... Keeping in mind that I am personally OK with capital punishment as long as I get to be judge, jury and executioner. And that thin as the veneer of civilization may be, it's all we've got, and worth protecting
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby assateague » Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:03 pm

Which is why we must ensure that those who would chip away at that veneer, through rape, murder, and the like, are removed from society as quickly as is practicable.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby blackduckdog2 » Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:47 pm

assateague wrote:Which is why we must ensure that those who would chip away at that veneer, through rape, murder, and the like, are removed from society as quickly as is practicable.

Did I say something that would make you think I disagree?
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby assateague » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:31 pm

Yes. It seems as if all of your comments emphasize the feelings of the publishers as more of a danger to society than the actions of the murderers.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby Glimmerjim » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:32 pm

blackduckdog2 wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:He is trying to enage you on the ideas that we are all morally and emotionally damaged by the destruction of another life. Toss in the demeaning of a human being through exectution and the deeper statement that makes about our society as a whole. Then you need to dig into the personal gratification and vengeance effect. Which involves a segment of our society that would thrive on and enjoy commercializing it and allowing those who enjoy that type of thing to watch.

What he seem to really be saying is that he doesn't agree with us being "barbarians" and wants you to consider the higher issues. All the time denying that humans are barbarians and the veneer of civilization is thin. New Orleans after Katrina is an excellent example.

That's not bad..... Keeping in mind that I am personally OK with capital punishment as long as I get to be judge, jury and executioner. And that thin as the veneer of civilization may be, it's all we've got, and worth protecting

Extrapolating from the concept that the civilized aspect of society is a thin veneer, do we want to continue to shave that veneer down until it first becomes translucent, then clearly transparent? Or would it benefit us to continue to do that which adds solidity to that veneer? Makes it stronger and more intrinsic to the society it coats? Transform it from a facade, to a veneer, to a core substance? If you take a thin veneer of gold to a medallion of tin, it looks better for a bit but the appearance fades quickly and has no staying power. Plus, everyone with familiarity in the products realizes that it is a thin veneer over a cheap, shoddy core. If, however, layer upon layer of gold is layed upon that cheap core, at some point the core becomes meaningless, and the value resides in the gold in which the "basic inner core" is irrelevant to the value of the item as a whole. A complete transformation in the quality of the item has occured, but the inner core remains the same. It has simply become irrelevant, and is only exposed when there is a serious rending of the entire item. So, given a choice, do we strive to take those items with a thin veneer and dispose of them as a cheap product, or do we do that which subtly, slowly and unnoticeably increases the value until the difference between it and an item of pure gold is for the most part meaningless?
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby Glimmerjim » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:42 pm

assateague wrote:Yes. It seems as if all of your comments emphasize the feelings of the publishers as more of a danger to society than the actions of the murderers.

That's because a rogue, rabid, gang of vigilantes consumed by a mass-mentality can indeed become a greater threat than the actions of one person that has committed a "crime". Take a peek back in history and deny it. What happened at one time in our history when a black man "looked" the wrong way at a white woman? And a mob-mentality can occur through The New York Times at least as easily as it once occurred around the general store pot-bellied stove.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby MODuckkiller » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:51 pm

Glimmerjim wrote:
assateague wrote:Yes. It seems as if all of your comments emphasize the feelings of the publishers as more of a danger to society than the actions of the murderers.

That's because a rogue, rabid, gang of vigilantes consumed by a mass-mentality can indeed become a greater threat than the actions of one person that has committed a "crime". Take a peek back in history and deny it. What happened at one time in our history when a black man "looked" the wrong way at a white woman? And a mob-mentality can occur through The New York Times at least as easily as it once occurred around the general store pot-bellied stove.

Circumstantial, non-relating to the death penalty.

I don't think many would disagree with the 'mob mentality' of rape and murder being a bad thing. Nor do I personally believe that the 'mob mentality', if ever one existed, of those rapists and murderers deserving capital punishment is incorrect or inhumane.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby Glimmerjim » Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:36 pm

assateague wrote:Yes. It seems as if all of your comments emphasize the feelings of the publishers as more of a danger to society than the actions of the murderers.

Glimmerjim wrote: That's because a rogue, rabid, gang of vigilantes consumed by a mass-mentality can indeed become a greater threat than the actions of one person that has committed a "crime". Take a peek back in history and deny it. What happened at one time in our history when a black man "looked" the wrong way at a white woman? And a mob-mentality can occur through The New York Times at least as easily as it once occurred around the general store pot-bellied stove.

MODuckkiller wrote: Circumstantial, non-relating to the death penalty.

I don't think many would disagree with the 'mob mentality' of rape and murder being a bad thing. Nor do I personally believe that the 'mob mentality', if ever one existed, of those rapists and murderers deserving capital punishment is incorrect or inhumane.




First, I would take issue with "if ever one existed". We, as are all societies, are rife with examples.
Secondly, "those rapists and murderers deserving capital punishment" being ripe for capital punishment at the hands of a mob is a statement in which you have circumvented thousands of years of judicial process advancement.
Regardless of the desperate attempts by all of us at times, life is not a simple thing except to the simple-minded. I am not referring to you personally, MOD, just the attempt by many to shroud things in simplistic terms and conditions. Life becomes more complex every day. Proximity of persons, sheer number of people, ease of communication and travel, exposure to different cultures, etc all make life more complex. The NSA struggle was simply not an issue 50 years ago. "Phone taps" were able to be handled on a case by case basis. The ability to scan all phone calls for incendiary words, conversations, etc simply was not feasible. The benefits of technology, like everything else, come with cautions. The explosion of technology, now and in the future, will make philosophical questions more and more complex. I am not sure that we are equipped to deal with them. Nor do I believe that we have the desire or ability to curtail future technological advancements that will pose ever increasing moral and philosophical challenges. Will our advancement be our death knell? I think it is at the heart of every question that we deal with at this stage in human development, and that we need to address it in exactly those terms. The invention of the Atomic Bomb posed this question. It is far from being resolved. In fact, the actual potentiality for destruction by it has really been barely touched upon.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby blackduckdog2 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 1:33 am

SpinnerMan wrote:Yeah, yeah, I know, you were trying to make a subtle point that only you are smart enough to understand, blah, blah, blah.

It's a skeet range, Spinner, and all you got's that damned Creedmore. But you can't admit that there might be a target or two you can't track, because you've got all those ballistic charts and how the hell could they be wrong?
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby blackduckdog2 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:23 am

assateague wrote:Yes. It seems as if all of your comments emphasize the feelings of the publishers as more of a danger to society than the actions of the murderers.

Quite a projection……..make your case, please
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby SpinnerMan » Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:45 am

blackduckdog2 wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:Yeah, yeah, I know, you were trying to make a subtle point that only you are smart enough to understand, blah, blah, blah.

It's a skeet range, Spinner, and all you got's that damned Creedmore. But you can't admit that there might be a target or two you can't track, because you've got all those ballistic charts and how the hell could they be wrong?

Oh no, BDD2 has a secret he is not going to share.

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ScaupHunter wrote:He is trying to enage you on the ideas that we are all morally and emotionally damaged by the destruction of another life.
Of course we are :fingerhead: Stating the obvious is not enlightened. But absolutely abortion is horribly emotionally damaging. Men that have fought in war and killed the enemy are never the same. Same with someone forced to defend themselves. No freaking kidding this is true, but I guess when it is abortion, then the emotional damage to the women is just part of the liberals idea of the greater good, but when it is killing a serial killer or a rapist or any doing great physical damage to individuals and emotional damage to society, well, we have to worry so much about this pitfall that we have to prohibit it. However, his big argument is the control freak argument. I must be in charge to trust the system.


ScaupHunter wrote:Then you need to dig into the personal gratification and vengeance effect. Which involves a segment of our society that would thrive on and enjoy commercializing it and allowing those who enjoy that type of thing to watch.
So you are saying we have a liberal for censorship? I told you he'd be a right-winger if he got past the emotions of the moment.

ScaupHunter wrote:What he seem to really be saying is that he doesn't agree with us being "barbarians" and wants you to consider the higher issues. All the time denying that humans are barbarians and the veneer of civilization is thin. New Orleans after Katrina is an excellent example.
Yeah, and enlightened people are all for abortion. Hey, if we don't know for sure it is a baby, then it's OK to kill it. While I'm sure he is all for knowing for certain what you are killing when you go hunting.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby ScaupHunter » Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:07 am

Glimmerjim wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:He is trying to enage you on the ideas that we are all morally and emotionally damaged by the destruction of another life. Toss in the demeaning of a human being through exectution and the deeper statement that makes about our society as a whole. Then you need to dig into the personal gratification and vengeance effect. Which involves a segment of our society that would thrive on and enjoy commercializing it and allowing those who enjoy that type of thing to watch.

What he seem to really be saying is that he doesn't agree with us being "barbarians" and wants you to consider the higher issues. All the time denying that humans are barbarians and the veneer of civilization is thin. New Orleans after Katrina is an excellent example.

That's not bad..... Keeping in mind that I am personally OK with capital punishment as long as I get to be judge, jury and executioner. And that thin as the veneer of civilization may be, it's all we've got, and worth protecting

Extrapolating from the concept that the civilized aspect of society is a thin veneer, do we want to continue to shave that veneer down until it first becomes translucent, then clearly transparent? Or would it benefit us to continue to do that which adds solidity to that veneer? Makes it stronger and more intrinsic to the society it coats? Transform it from a facade, to a veneer, to a core substance? If you take a thin veneer of gold to a medallion of tin, it looks better for a bit but the appearance fades quickly and has no staying power. Plus, everyone with familiarity in the products realizes that it is a thin veneer over a cheap, shoddy core. If, however, layer upon layer of gold is layed upon that cheap core, at some point the core becomes meaningless, and the value resides in the gold in which the "basic inner core" is irrelevant to the value of the item as a whole. A complete transformation in the quality of the item has occured, but the inner core remains the same. It has simply become irrelevant, and is only exposed when there is a serious rending of the entire item. So, given a choice, do we strive to take those items with a thin veneer and dispose of them as a cheap product, or do we do that which subtly, slowly and unnoticeably increases the value until the difference between it and an item of pure gold is for the most part meaningless?



You want to put lipstick on the pig? As an engineer and a blacksmith I would never start with a crappy piece of steel or inferior product and then try and coat it enough to make it work. Laying coatings of gold over a tin core is not making it better. It just creates the opportunity for the opportunistic human nature to rear up and try and sell that piece as all gold by weight. Putting lipstick on the pig is going to fix anything. It only make things worse.

We all know the veneer of civilization is very thin. Humans are predators. We have two sharp teeth in the front of our mouths for a reason. We hunt, kill, and destroy our own kind and all other creatures with abandon. The people who are to afraid or incapable of taking care of themselve run and hide behind that thin veneer. they grasp onto it like a life buoy from a sinking ship. Others use it to try and feel superior or enlightened. Others use it as a bludgeon to force their agendas onto others. None of it changes the core of humanity or our nature. We are neither good nor evil by nature. We are predators that hunt and kill for our food and fight for survival by nature. Being a higher thinking animal does not change our biology. Nor does trying to feel superior or hiding behind others skirts. If you truly want to be free you have to be willing to risk, dare, and take the chances that life brings. Freedom is not a nanny government state. It is the right and ability to make your own decisions and live your life as you wish so long as you bring no harm to others.

We argue about the higher and greater good here from time to time. Guess what, both sides want the greater good for humanity . One side sees murdering unborn children and protecting murderers as a viable definition of that greater good. The other side sees protecting unborn children and killing murderers as the greater good. These are generalizations, but they fit the liberal / conservative arguments nicely. There is simply no supportable evidence that allowing abortions, and protecting criminals has enhanced our society in any way. There is plenty of evidence to the contrary. What with ridiculous incarceration rates in the US. Rampant crime, in small condensed areas of the nation ( liberal strongholds, one and all ), and ridiculous stats like 70% of black children are born out of wedlock, etc....... That is what the veneer of civilization buys you. Eventually when a society denies it's nature and allows the resolve and moral center of its society to die, that society dies with it.

America became great and a world power by kicking the crap out of our enemies. Every great power and great nation in the world has become great through the exact same method. It is simply human nature. I challenge our liberal brothers here to name one great nation that has not risen on the power at the tip of the spear, sword, or gun. There are quite simply none in the worlds history. After working on that, I challenge them to name one nation that reached the point the US is in economically, physically, morally, and as a society and survived. The liberal agenda no matter how hard you believe it is one of defeat and despotism. It always has been and always will be. Why? Because it simply has to force everyone to comply or it will never work. Despite the fact that it never works and never has. History writes the story over, and over, and over, yet modern liberals think they can make the story change.

I am not saying to throw away the veneer of civilization. I am saying we need to grasp the reality of our nature as humans. We need to stop with all the babysitting and crying over bad behavior while excusing it at every turn. Instead of protecting everyone from everything, use the law to remove criminals from the system permanently. Actually protect society instead of people who have proven by their own choices and acts they don't belong in society. Allow each citizen to earn their own rewards and consequences. That is what freedom is all about.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby blackduckdog2 » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:17 am

SpinnerMan wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:Yeah, yeah, I know, you were trying to make a subtle point that only you are smart enough to understand, blah, blah, blah.

It's a skeet range, Spinner, and all you got's that damned Creedmore. But you can't admit that there might be a target or two you can't track, because you've got all those ballistic charts and how the hell could they be wrong?

Oh no, BDD2 has a secret he is not going to share.

Image.

I share it all the time. You just don't get it
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby SpinnerMan » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:30 am

blackduckdog2 wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:
blackduckdog2 wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:Yeah, yeah, I know, you were trying to make a subtle point that only you are smart enough to understand, blah, blah, blah.

It's a skeet range, Spinner, and all you got's that damned Creedmore. But you can't admit that there might be a target or two you can't track, because you've got all those ballistic charts and how the hell could they be wrong?

Oh no, BDD2 has a secret he is not going to share.

Image.

I share it all the time. You just don't get it

You think you have something that others have not gotten long ago. You usually do not.

In this case, it appears your great wisdom was something so obvious and not something subtle that was missed as you assumed.

Another example of Ronald Reagan's statement that the problem with liberals is that they know so much that is not true.

BTW, did you watch Obama being interviewed by Matthews. I saw about 20 minutes of it. He stated that Reagan got his big changes because his party controlled Congress :lol3: :lol3: :lol3: :lol3: :lol3: :lol3: :lol3: Not true for one second of his presidency. The Dems controlled the House for every single day.

You all "know" what is true and then try to find the facts to prove it. This exchange was a classic example of that. Obama said something he wished to be true and then ended up showing his ignorance as he searched for something that would support it.
A politician thinks of the next election; a statesman of the next generation. A politician looks for the success of his party; a statesman for that of the country. The statesman wished to steer, while the politician was satisfied to drift.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby Glimmerjim » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:36 am

ScaupHunter wrote: You want to put lipstick on the pig? As an engineer and a blacksmith I would never start with a crappy piece of steel or inferior product and then try and coat it enough to make it work. Laying coatings of gold over a tin core is not making it better. It just creates the opportunity for the opportunistic human nature to rear up and try and sell that piece as all gold by weight. Putting lipstick on the pig is going to fix anything. It only make things worse.



Of course you wouldn't if you had a choice, scaup. However, we've all agreed that humanity has issues with peaceful coexistence. That is the core you have to work with. The question we are dealing with is how to give that core more value, to make it better than it was. There seem to be two trains of thought at work here. One method is to watch that crappy piece of steel until it fails in its purpose, then discard it. The other is to attempt to keep adding "veneers" of something more durable until the core itself is adequately strengthened to perform its function.
The end result of these two methods is that in the first you are going to have an endless supply of failures, and an endless supply of discards. In the second, you are going to, hopefully, eventually, come up with the ability to take these items that are destined for failure and make them functional. Just two basic philosophical differences.
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Re: Christianity and the Death Penalty

Postby ScaupHunter » Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:44 am

Glimmerjim wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote: You want to put lipstick on the pig? As an engineer and a blacksmith I would never start with a crappy piece of steel or inferior product and then try and coat it enough to make it work. Laying coatings of gold over a tin core is not making it better. It just creates the opportunity for the opportunistic human nature to rear up and try and sell that piece as all gold by weight. Putting lipstick on the pig is going to fix anything. It only make things worse.



Of course you wouldn't if you had a choice, scaup. However, we've all agreed that humanity has issues with peaceful coexistence. That is the core you have to work with. The question we are dealing with is how to give that core more value, to make it better than it was. There seem to be two trains of thought at work here. One method is to watch that crappy piece of steel until it fails in its purpose, then discard it. The other is to attempt to keep adding "veneers" of something more durable until the core itself is adequately strengthened to perform its function.
The end result of these two methods is that in the first you are going to have an endless supply of failures, and an endless supply of discards. In the second, you are going to, hopefully, eventually, come up with the ability to take these items that are destined for failure and make them functional. Just two basic philosophical differences.


And that is where the human nature part of my point comes in to the discssion Jim. You can't beat it or change it. Running on hope is tantamount to failure. You cannot take a weak core and make a truly strong system. You can take a strong core and make a truly strong system. The US was born with a very strong moral and philosophical core. That core was forged and strengthened through the Revolutionary War and ideals of the citizens. Since WWII we have been very busy trying to destroy that moral and philosophical core so it can be replaced with things that weaken us as a nation. We are not discussing starting with crap and moving forward Jim. We are discussing getting back to our core ideals and the foundation of the nation, or moving forward with an every weakening core which leads to social, economic, and societal collapse. Those are not fundamentally different ideas. They are diametrically opposed processes.
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