Nevada Rancher defends his turf....

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Nevada Rancher defends his turf....

Postby wanapasaki » Mon Apr 07, 2014 8:04 pm

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Re: Nevada Rancher defends his turf....

Postby Glimmerjim » Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:18 am

I have the distinct feeling those smiles of pride won't last. The guy's an idiot. However, if he wishes to make martyrs of himself and his wife, he certainly has the opportunity to do so.
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Re: Nevada Rancher defends his turf....

Postby wanapasaki » Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:40 am

I'd have to disagree Glimmerjim.. This guy has lived his whole off that land, and it appears his family has done it for generations as well. Looks to me like he is simply trying to preserve that.
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Re: Nevada Rancher defends his turf....

Postby ibedamn » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:23 am

So help me understand this. The feds. are sending armed agents for trespassing cows. Yet they seem to ignore trespassing illegal aliens. Who is the bigger threat to our national security? I never knew trespassing cows were such a threat. I must of lead a sheltered life.
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Re: Nevada Rancher defends his turf....

Postby Glimmerjim » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:56 am

wanapasaki wrote:I'd have to disagree Glimmerjim.. This guy has lived his whole off that land, and it appears his family has done it for generations as well. Looks to me like he is simply trying to preserve that.

I agree, wana (how can we politely give you a shorter name :lol3: ) that he is within his rights to argue his case, and I agree with his trying to beat the issue. But he won't. As I determine it, he is fighting for the right to continue to break a 20 year old law. My point about his being an idiot is not in trying to retain his foraging rights, but in willing to die for them in this case. His case would have to be based legally on adverse possession, or some variant of it, and to the best of my knowledge adverse possession laws don't apply to public land. This is simply not his land. He has used it illegally, as per what I read out of it, and the Feds are now going to enforce the law. For right or wrong, I think I have heard most people here say that we don't need more laws, just to enforce the laws we have. That is what is happening. Plus, bottom line. I am sure they are good people and I would hate to see them die in a vain effort to retain rights which were not legally theirs for two decades. Perhaps I am missing something which justifies their stance. If you believe so, let me know.
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Re: Nevada Rancher defends his turf....

Postby SpinnerMan » Tue Apr 08, 2014 8:16 am

Glimmerjim wrote:I think I have heard most people here say that we don't need more laws, just to enforce the laws we have.
And get rid of a hell of a lot of them that exist. :thumbsup:

“The best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly.” Abraham Lincoln

Is this one of them? Image

Most of the land the federal government owns, they have no freaking excuse to do so. Just think how poor this country would be today if they did not give away nearly all the land acquired. Is a state free if it is 85% owned by the government? They NEVER should have stopped giving land away. Look at Nevada. They damn near own the whole freaking state. The Feds should never own more than a few percent of any state, but we live in the age of control freaks and not freedom lovers.

Image

Glimmerjim wrote:My point about his being an idiot is not in trying to retain his foraging rights, but in willing to die for them in this case.
What are you willing to risk death for?

While I have no opinion on this guys actions one way or the other.

Don't even know if he is bluffing. He has raised the profile of the issue has he not? I hope he wins in the legislature.

I am coming around quickly on evils of law enforcement via paramilitary actions.

Image

Law enforcement is not military engagement. The accused is not the dehumanized enemy. He is your fellow American. Maybe this could all be resolved with a drone strike?
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Re: Nevada Rancher defends his turf....

Postby ScaupHunter » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:20 am

Just because someone wrote a law does not make the law just or appropriate to the situation. Nor does it make the law Constitutional. I would guess that someone wrote a law to get rid of something they didn't like. The guy has been using the land as it was always used for 20 years despite the law. Apparently no one cared. I for one say he has adverse right of trespass for his cows after 20 years of no enforcement of what is apparently a bad law.

I have $50 that says some whiny liberal greenies stepped in a cow pie while hiking and whined to someone connected, or is related to someone who is connected in Nevada.
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Re: Nevada Rancher defends his turf....

Postby wanapasaki » Tue Apr 08, 2014 9:12 pm

ScaupHunter wrote:Just because someone wrote a law does not make the law just or appropriate to the situation. Nor does it make the law Constitutional. I would guess that someone wrote a law to get rid of something they didn't like. The guy has been using the land as it was always used for 20 years despite the law. Apparently no one cared. I for one say he has adverse right of trespass for his cows after 20 years of no enforcement of what is apparently a bad law.

I have $50 that says some whiny liberal greenies stepped in a cow pie while hiking and whined to someone connected, or is related to someone who is connected in Nevada.



Thank you Scaup, said what I agree with. 20 year law is in it's infancy when it comes to this man and his families way of life. He's willing to die for it, so he says, because he knows nothing else. He has been ranching ALL his life, and I can guarantee you he is well over 20. When someone cut's the head off the snake, it doesn't give it very many options. I
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Re: Nevada Rancher defends his turf....

Postby goodkarmarising » Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:50 am

There is a lot more to the story...guy doesn't want to pay the grazing lease on public land and doesn't want to pay his back fee...oh well so sad...


http://freebeacon.com/issues/last-man-standing/

The BLM designated 186,909 acres of the Gold Butte off-limits for the “critical desert tortoise” population in 1998. Bundy had already lost his grazing permit five years earlier for refusing to pay fees for the land, which his family has ranched since the 1870s.

The “federal grazing fee” is $1.35 per “Animal Unit Month,” or the amount of forage needed per animal, each month. Bundy said he owes roughly $300,000 in back fees, while the BLM asserts he owes over $1 million. The BLM defended the removal because Bundy did not “voluntarily” give up his cattle.
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Re: Nevada Rancher defends his turf....

Postby ScaupHunter » Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:06 am

The government does not have the right under the Constitution to sieze his cattle. They can round them up and move the off the government property. If they guy owes the fees then he needs to end up in court not facing armed thugs with badges. We have a legal system for a reason.

As for the million dollars. I would bet you a lot of that is excessive fines and other tag ons since he refused to pay up front. If that is what is actually happening.
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Re: Nevada Rancher defends his turf....

Postby Glimmerjim » Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:02 pm

ScaupHunter wrote:The government does not have the right under the Constitution to sieze his cattle. They can round them up and move the off the government property. If they guy owes the fees then he needs to end up in court not facing armed thugs with badges. We have a legal system for a reason.

As for the million dollars. I would bet you a lot of that is excessive fines and other tag ons since he refused to pay up front. If that is what is actually happening.

Late payment fines are there for a necessary reason, to impose incentives to pay fines in a reasonable length of time. Who would ever pay a fine, bill, lease, whatever, if they knew that they could put it off indefinitely and when eventually coerced (somehow) into paying it are only responsible for the amount of the original fine.
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Re: Nevada Rancher defends his turf....

Postby aunt betty » Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:22 pm

Nobody is using the parks around here...it's too dangerous for children to walk to school therefore too dangerous to let them play in public parks.
Suppose I moved some cattle into Robeson Park and put up an electric fence...and got away with it for 20 years.
Would y'all cry when the man came and took my cows?
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Re: Nevada Rancher defends his turf....

Postby ScaupHunter » Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:29 pm

Yes. You are least were putting the parks to good use and putting something back into the economy. Frankly if your parks are unsafe, they should be closed, and then sold off to developers. Paying to maintain and repair useless property is beyone stupid.

There is a lot more to this story than what we have all heard here.
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Re: Nevada Rancher defends his turf....

Postby aunt betty » Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:13 pm

ScaupHunter wrote:Yes. You are least were putting the parks to good use and putting something back into the economy. Frankly if your parks are unsafe, they should be closed, and then sold off to developers. Paying to maintain and repair useless property is beyone stupid.

There is a lot more to this story than what we have all heard here.

Well of course there is more than meets the eye.

When I first saw this story it reminded me of the BLM taking a big chunk of Nevada land and returning it to an Indian tribe. That was quite recently.

If I had to take a wild and extreme guess I'd guess ENERGY is under the ground in Nevada and companies are jockeying around to get their ducks in a row. It sure as heck ain't about tortoises.
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Re: Nevada Rancher defends his turf....

Postby Glimmerjim » Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:23 pm

aunt betty wrote:Nobody is using the parks around here...it's too dangerous for children to walk to school therefore too dangerous to let them play in public parks.
Suppose I moved some cattle into Robeson Park and put up an electric fence...and got away with it for 20 years.
Would y'all cry when the man came and took my cows?

Sorry to hear you are in conditions like that, ab. I know they're common, and a terrible reflection on society. I think that taints my opinions to a large degree. I have been lucky enough to reside in pretty peaceful suburbia my whole life. The last thing I would worry about is letting my kids walk to school or play in the park. Were I living 20 or so miles from here I would have a whole different outlook on a lot of things, I'm sure. Get the heck out of there as soon as it works for you, buddy!
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Re: Nevada Rancher defends his turf....

Postby SpinnerMan » Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:51 pm

aunt betty wrote:Suppose I moved some cattle into Robeson Park and put up an electric fence...and got away with it for 20 years. Would y'all cry when the man came and took my cows?

It depends how they did it. In your case, I'd be cheering for a drone strike.

Let's assume the government believes this guy is making legitimate threats of violence. Get a warrant for his arrest on that. Don't escalate the situation. This is not about effective law enforcement. It's about a display of power.

Image

Law enforcement is looking more and more like prison guards in a maximum security prison than like people trying to protect and serve the public.

There is just something seriously wrong with this story. You didn't have to believe David Koresh was in the right to think the government's response was horribly in the wrong.

When law enforcement looks more and more like military action, government of the people, by the people, for the people is perishing.
Image

This is the problem with federalism. They can sweep in, kill this guy and his family, and move on. Local law enforcement cannot get away with that.

And what is the law you refer? It is law imposed by a government located about 2,000 miles away? Imposed by people who the vast majority have never lived in Nevada nor have any ties whatsoever to that place and therefore can sacrifice the livelihood of people they do not know in the name of protecting a turtle they will never see. This is all totally emblematic of a dysfunctional top down central government. Read the Declaration of Independence and see how many of the list of grievances apply to our federal government today.

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/declaration_transcript.html

However, this is why I have said in the past, when you are protesting the federal government, you can't be benefiting personally without looking like a common criminal. If during the Boston Tea Party, they had stole the tea and sold it, it would not have looked like a protest. Now don't misinterpret what I am saying. I don't think this guy is doing the same as they did. My suspicious is that he is not very bright and he reacted emotionally after he felt (probably justifiably so) he was screwed and reacted emotionally and we are closer to the Branch Davidian than we are to the Boston Tea Party.

aunt betty wrote:If I had to take a wild and extreme guess I'd guess ENERGY is under the ground in Nevada and companies are jockeying around to get their ducks in a row. It sure as heck ain't about tortoises.
It's about control by the bureaucrats in DC that think it is their land to be used the way they see fit. And they hate cows, they hate energy, they hate everything that red state Americans do. The desert tortoise is just a way to stop using the land. No solar panel, no cows, no nothing. It's about control and not money. It's about "protecting" the land from evil humans. Cows graze around oil and gas wells all over the place. What do you think they do in Texas?
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Re: Nevada Rancher defends his turf....

Postby ScaupHunter » Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:48 pm

I want to know how many cows have stepped on the damn tortoises. I would bet a months pay that not one has been stepped on or bothered by a cow.
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Re: Nevada Rancher defends his turf....

Postby SpinnerMan » Wed Apr 09, 2014 3:52 pm

ScaupHunter wrote:I want to know how many cows have stepped on the damn tortoises. I would bet a months pay that not one has been stepped on or bothered by a cow.

Not enough. There are still some left. :yes:
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Re: Nevada Rancher defends his turf....

Postby wanapasaki » Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:32 pm

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2014/04 ... ing-point/

The fed's are even selling his cows for profit lol :fingerpt:
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Re: Nevada Rancher defends his turf....

Postby ohioboy » Wed Apr 09, 2014 9:21 pm

Spinner- "You didn't have to believe David Koresh was in the right to think the government's response was horribly in the wrong."

Did he not have MANY underage kids that were "his"?

So then you would say that all cults that are doing things on private property are given a free pass?
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Re: Nevada Rancher defends his turf....

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:36 am

ohioboy wrote:Spinner- "You didn't have to believe David Koresh was in the right to think the government's response was horribly in the wrong."

Did he not have MANY underage kids that were "his"?

So then you would say that all cults that are doing things on private property are given a free pass?

That's what you think I meant :eek:

I really can't believe you think that the government handled it the right way :eek:
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Re: Nevada Rancher defends his turf....

Postby ibedamn » Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:01 am

“That number, the $300,00, that was a number estimated through Sept. 11, 2011,” Bureau of Land Management spokeswoman Kirsten Cannon said in a phone call with reporters Monday. “Since then, the estimated amount owed by him – so including the $300,000 – totals $1.1 million.”

In addition, the cost of removing the rancher’s cattle from the public land will cost taxpayers roughly $3 million, according to initial estimates." :huh:

I am amazed at which laws the Feds. choose to enforce, and ignore. It's my understanding that marijuana is still illegal by Federal law. Yet they have not sent armed agents to states that allow it.

Maybe it will end peacefully, but I kind of doubt it. Hope his wife does not arm herself with a baby. That can get you killed.

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Re: Nevada Rancher defends his turf....

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:05 am

http://thehill.com/blogs/regwatch/administration/202932-holder-claims-vast-amount-of-discretion-in-enforcing-law

Attorney General Eric Holder maintained Tuesday that he has a “vast amount” of discretion in how the Justice Department prosecutes federal law.


While I don't disagree that that is the reality, it should scare the hell out of people.

ibedamn wrote:I am amazed at which laws the Feds. choose to enforce, and ignore. It's my understanding that marijuana is still illegal by Federal law. Yet they have not sent armed agents to states that allow it.
They could choose to do that tomorrow. That is within the vast amount of discretion.

The problem is when society EXPECTS to be permitted to disregard the law because the current administration chooses to allow them to disregard the law without threat of repercussions. What happens when the next attorney general or the next administration decides to use their vast amount of discretion in a vastly different way?

It also leaves a vast amount of discretion to hide a vast amount of corruption. Hey, they are just exercising their discretion and not the political agenda of their contributors or their personal political ambitions no matter how it looks.

When the EXPECTATION is that there is no risk of violating the law, who has the advantage? The criminals or the law abiding citizens? What kind of society do you get when the criminals are likely to be more prosperous than the law abiding citizens?

Chicago and Detroit :wink: Where's slow, haven't seen him post in awhile.
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Re: Nevada Rancher defends his turf....

Postby ScaupHunter » Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:34 am

ohioboy wrote:Spinner- "You didn't have to believe David Koresh was in the right to think the government's response was horribly in the wrong."

Did he not have MANY underage kids that were "his"?

So then you would say that all cults that are doing things on private property are given a free pass?



David Koresh and a bunch of the men went into town every Wednesday for supplies. The police could have quite simply arrested them and then issued a knock warrant and taken the place without murdering citizens. The actions taken were illegal. No matter what the case is, nothing warrants violating a citizens right.
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Re: Nevada Rancher defends his turf....

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:32 pm

Some support for my statement.

SpinnerMan wrote:The desert tortoise is just a way to stop using the land. No solar panel, no cows, no nothing. It's about control and not money.
in that part of Nevada. The reasons for the faux environmental concerns vary and are about money in a lot of places.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142405270230380210457945387200416560
Bird Nests and Kit Foxes vs. Renewable Energy
California's green laws are now inhibiting the development of green electric power.
By CHRIS CARR And ROBERT MILLER
Mr. Carr is a partner at Morrison & Foerster, the law firm that represented EDF Renewable Energy in the case discussed here. Mr. Miller is general counsel at EDF Renewable Energy.


The California Environmental Quality Act has been abused by numerous labor unions such as the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, California Unions for Reliable Energy and the Laborers' International Union of North America. Their tactics often involve suing or threatening to sue on purported environmental grounds solely to hold up permits until the use of union labor is guaranteed by renewables developers. Businesses also sue to stifle competition or to extract cash and other concessions. Such "greenmail" suits unnecessarily raise the costs of renewable-energy projects.


Of course, the authors are still living in the fantasy land that the lawmakers and bureaucrats are willing to give up control that comes with such vague laws open to being interpreted any way they see fit.

Among the more notorious is a provision of the California Fish and Game Code that prohibits "taking, capturing, or destroying" the nests or eggs of any bird. This prohibition derives from penal laws dating to the early 20th century enacted to address the rampant collection of bird eggs for sale as food and nests used for ladies hats. Another section of the code—imposing a similar prohibition for birds-of-prey, and their nests and eggs—was enacted in 1985 as part of a reform of California's falconry-licensing regime, after widespread illegal trafficking in those birds came to light.

Some California Department of Fish and Wildlife officials have interpreted these laws to prohibit cutting down a tree containing the nest of even a common bird species.

What a dream for a control freak. They have control over cutting down damn near every tree and bush in the state.

These laws are just a means to an end. In rural Nevada, that end on government land for the turtle lovers is a vast nature preserve devoid of human activity of all kinds. No cows, no wells, no solar arrays, nothing but mother nature seen by almost no people because there are no roads and no access.
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