Too white

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Re: Too white

Postby getemducks » Sun Apr 20, 2014 12:43 pm

I forgot which university it was but did anyone else see that deal where they had a "coloreds only" meeting?
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Re: Too white

Postby go get the bird » Sun Apr 20, 2014 1:24 pm

getemducks wrote:I forgot which university it was but did anyone else see that deal where they had a "coloreds only" meeting?

I think the meeting was about diversity. Not even joking.
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Re: Too white

Postby getemducks » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:09 pm

go get the bird wrote:
getemducks wrote:I forgot which university it was but did anyone else see that deal where they had a "coloreds only" meeting?

I think the meeting was about diversity. Not even joking.

Lol oh the irony...
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Re: To white

Postby cartervj » Sun Apr 20, 2014 2:58 pm

dudejcb wrote:
Indaswamp wrote:
dudejcb wrote:Scaup,

Diversity is about more than skin color. Diversity of opinion, background and experience are important as well. Your writing about this makes me wonder where you received whatever diversity training you may have had. Were the members of your military unit all white?

Are you for religious diversity as well? Have you seen what happens in countries where >20% of the population is of the Islamic faith? Do you want that here?
Not really. I am very skeptical of religions in general. Here in the US I am especially skeptical of Mormons and bible thumpers.


yet, you're cool with muslims :huh:

I'm skeptical of doom sayers of climate change :welcome:
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Re: Too white

Postby cartervj » Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:01 pm

Nabs wrote:As a husband of a charter school teacher, I see how my wifes charter school works. First; they are a public school, meaning there is no tuition for students to attend. Second; they are not unionized, which allows them to hire a teacher based on their potential and release them (read fire) based on their performance. They are also able to raise funds (and do) through various charity events to provide technology, close to a 1 to 1 ratio of IPad/MacBook per student.

If anyone can explain why a charter school that meets or exceeds the state and local test scores should not receive the same reimbursement per student that a normal public school receives I would be happy to entertain it.



cause charter schools do not meet the criteria of liberal ideology education :thumbsup:
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Re: Too white

Postby ScaupHunter » Sun Apr 20, 2014 5:16 pm

Exactly! They don't push the liberal agenda. They teach patriotism and belief in yourself.
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Re: Too white

Postby cartervj » Sun Apr 20, 2014 7:47 pm

A new ad campaign coming to college campuses
White-privilege.jpg
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Re: Too white

Postby On the X » Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:38 pm

dudejcb wrote:
I don't think everyone is entitled to the have the same things. Rather, I think we're all entitled to fairness and an equal shot. Whether they can attain it is up to the individual. Life is not fair, but we can try. Then it's up to the individual to do good work and be ready when good luck (opportunities) arise.

What movement is it again that has pushed entitlements on so many generations til it has become a way of life? Not the conservative movement.
When it comes to blacks, we have a poor track record in this country. I don't know when the scales will be balanced so we can just forget about all that,

The we you refer to is the liberals once again, atleast in modern times. The scales will be balanced when ALL people realize they are responsible for their own selves and their children and that having children isn't a career.
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Re: To white

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:41 am

dudejcb wrote:I am very skeptical of religions in general. Here in the US I am especially skeptical of Mormons and bible thumpers.
As you should be, but why not even more skeptical of those in power and those seeking power? I don't care about the Bible thumper who tells me I am going to hell because he has no power, but is simply expressing his opinion which I can accept or reject as I see fit. It is not the religion that is the problem, it is the imposition of opinion by force that is the fear.

Muslims, right now, at this point in history, are the most egregious violators as a group. Mock them and their religion and you legitimately may fear for your life. Mock Catholicism - no fear. Mock Protestants - no fear. Mock Jews - no fear.

They are not the only one that wishes to impose their opinion by force. Obamacare is the imposition of opinion by force. It is unavoidable to some degree which is why government is aptly described as a necessary evil. Which is why we must be ever vigilante and ever skeptical and part of that is if it is not absolutely necessary do not do it and if there is another way always do that first. Modern liberals reject this. They reject the freedom of the individual to do the wrong thing in their mind. It is why I am extremely skeptical of them because unlike the Bible thumper, if I disagree I could end up in jail if they get their way. A law, a tax, ..., you don't get to disagree without the risk of force being used against you. That why we want education and not imposition or indoctrination. It is the only way to a free society because we cannot force over 300 million people to make good decisions, that is scary evil if that much power exists.

dudejcb wrote:
SpinnerMan wrote:... Why do liberals attack charter schools? ...
First, let me say that I am amazed at how you consistently are able to dig up and present a lot of information for whatever point you're trying to drive home. Wish I was better at that. That said, I don't have the time (or desire) to read, cogitate, and refute all that you put out there.

The reason I am skeptical of charter schools is that don;t play on a level field, yet pretend that they do. Their students (parents) take advantage of all the programs and activities ordinary public schools provide and pay for (sports, etc.) and focus their funds/efforts strictly on their charter. So they're not shouldering the full cost of providing an educational experience, yet when they tout their accomplishments they conveniently forget to mention it. They're disingenuous.

First, monopolies should be avoid if at all possible. It is quite possible to avoid monopolies on K-12 education. It's just not hard to devise a system where the best educators survive and the rest learn to perform at that level or learn to do something else because they are inferior educators.

Monopolies do not work efficiently. They do not provide the highest quality for the lowest price. Monopolies do not promote innovation and adoption of best practices. Monopolies fight to keep their monopoly power.

Even if you do not like the current charter school rules as you think they are, I simply do not understand how anyone opposes the concept. Except of course those profiting from the monopoly power they have. No one profits more from that monopoly power than the union teachers who earn far, far over free market rates. They make the "excess profits" of the oil industry look vanishingly small. It's not unusual for union teachers to making excess profits of over 100% because of their monopoly power.

However, charter schools today are not just picking the cream of the crop. They have expanded far beyond that. I could not find the good article I read on them a couple weeks ago, but they are far beyond just cherry picking. They are educating all students, particularly where the competition is the worst, in poor minority neighborhoods. They don't compete with the best schools. They compete with the worst. That is how competition works. You take out the easy ones first, which is in the poor minority neighborhoods. And how is that not a great thing for those students?

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304554004579423652327569982
Some 70,000 of the city's one million students, most black or Hispanic, attend charter schools, mostly in poorer neighborhoods. Charter schools are privately run but largely publicly financed. Their teachers are not unionized. Their students usually outscore their counterparts at conventional public schools on state tests. Success Academy does particularly well. Last year 82% of its students passed citywide math exams. Citywide the figure was 30%.


It is true that wealthy and public-spirited New Yorkers, out of loyalty to the city and its future generations, give a lot of money, care and time—the last, time, doesn't get noted enough—to create and help run many of the city's charter schools. They should be thanked for this, every day. Again, they do it because they care about children who would otherwise be locked into a public-school system that doesn't work.

Why on earth would we want to do anything but encourage more of this. Why not increase that number from 70,000 to 700,000 if possible. Actually, it is probably not necessary to be that high because there are many good public schools and those can compete and survive, albeit they will probably be forced to get more efficient with their expenses, but that is a good thing and allows people to get their education and have money left to get other valuable things too.

The very existence of charter schools is an implicit rebuke to the public schools. It means they are not succeeding, and something new must be tried. That something new won't be perfect—no charter school is, and some are more imperfect than others—but people still line up to get into them. And there's something to the wisdom of crowds. When a school exists for the students, you can tell. When it exists for the unions, you can tell that too.
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Re: Too white

Postby ScaupHunter » Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:36 am

cartervj wrote:A new ad campaign coming to college campuses
White-privilege.jpg



It should read, It is almost impossible not to see what isn't there if you are black.
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Re: Too white

Postby ohioboy » Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:30 pm

Nabs wrote:As a husband of a charter school teacher, I see how my wifes charter school works. First; they are a public school, meaning there is no tuition for students to attend. Second; they are not unionized, which allows them to hire a teacher based on their potential and release them (read fire) based on their performance. They are also able to raise funds (and do) through various charity events to provide technology, close to a 1 to 1 ratio of IPad/MacBook per student.

If anyone can explain why a charter school that meets or exceeds the state and local test scores should not receive the same reimbursement per student that a normal public school receives I would be happy to entertain it.

So why not free up every school/student? Allow everyone to attend whatever school they wish every year. This leads to the problem being addressed by the OP: Schools will turn into the "black" or "white" or "asian" and "hispanic" school. This happened/is happening to my school. We are 54% black and were 39% when I started 10 years ago. Kids get to pick between 3 schools in my area of the county (we have county schools here). Now there are quotas on how many of each race can attend to stop that from happening.

If you do not have a racially diverse population, it will happen according to other factors.

Not saying i agree or disagree, just saying.
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Re: Too white

Postby beretta24 » Mon Apr 21, 2014 2:41 pm

ohioboy wrote:
Nabs wrote:As a husband of a charter school teacher, I see how my wifes charter school works. First; they are a public school, meaning there is no tuition for students to attend. Second; they are not unionized, which allows them to hire a teacher based on their potential and release them (read fire) based on their performance. They are also able to raise funds (and do) through various charity events to provide technology, close to a 1 to 1 ratio of IPad/MacBook per student.

If anyone can explain why a charter school that meets or exceeds the state and local test scores should not receive the same reimbursement per student that a normal public school receives I would be happy to entertain it.

So why not free up every school/student? Allow everyone to attend whatever school they wish every year. This leads to the problem being addressed by the OP: Schools will turn into the "black" or "white" or "asian" and "hispanic" school. This happened/is happening to my school. We are 54% black and were 39% when I started 10 years ago. Kids get to pick between 3 schools in my area of the county (we have county schools here). Now there are quotas on how many of each race can attend to stop that from happening.

If you do not have a racially diverse population, it will happen according to other factors.

Not saying i agree or disagree, just saying.

And what has happened to performance? If the kids are learning more and more successful I could give two shits about the racial makeup.
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Re: Too white

Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Apr 21, 2014 3:59 pm

ohioboy wrote:This leads to the problem being addressed by the OP: Schools will turn into the "black" or "white" or "asian" and "hispanic" school.
This is ONLY a problem to be solved if you reject the idea of freedom of association.

Where is the evidence that this is inherently a bad thing?

Shouldn't we also then prohibit black or other racial or ethnic neighborhoods? How far do you take this social engineering and limitations on people's freedom to associate with whom they wish?

Who here is unable to work and associate with races and ethnicities that they did not associate with as a kid? Isn't that pretty strong anecdotal evidence that the entire premise is bogus?

beretta24 wrote:If the kids are learning more and more successful I could give two shits about the racial makeup.
x2

Given the large cultural differences, is racial homogeneity possibly a good thing? Can we be open minded enough to even ask the question seriously or is there only one answer to be tolerated?

What do you think the kids learn at home if their parents are bitter over their kids being forced to go to school with people of a different culture? I don't think it is the virtues of racial and ethnic diversity.

I just see so much wrong on so many levels for the government forcing people to associate in ways that they do not wish to do so, but I don't see the clear upside that comes anywhere close to this level of government intrusion. I get why the control freaks want to do it, but beyond that, I just do not see a positive.

If we can't educate black kids in a black school, that is a giant red flag. I don't think hiding that red flag by K-12 integration solves the root cause problem. It just hides it and allows it to get worse and not better. But isn't that what politics is about? Hiding problems past the next election and not the hard task of solving them today with results to come after future elections.
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Re: Too white

Postby dudejcb » Mon Apr 21, 2014 8:53 pm

beretta24 wrote:
ohioboy wrote:
Nabs wrote:As a husband of a charter school teacher, I see how my wifes charter school works. First; they are a public school, meaning there is no tuition for students to attend. Second; they are not unionized, which allows them to hire a teacher based on their potential and release them (read fire) based on their performance. They are also able to raise funds (and do) through various charity events to provide technology, close to a 1 to 1 ratio of IPad/MacBook per student.

If anyone can explain why a charter school that meets or exceeds the state and local test scores should not receive the same reimbursement per student that a normal public school receives I would be happy to entertain it.

So why not free up every school/student? Allow everyone to attend whatever school they wish every year. This leads to the problem being addressed by the OP: Schools will turn into the "black" or "white" or "asian" and "hispanic" school. This happened/is happening to my school. We are 54% black and were 39% when I started 10 years ago. Kids get to pick between 3 schools in my area of the county (we have county schools here). Now there are quotas on how many of each race can attend to stop that from happening.

If you do not have a racially diverse population, it will happen according to other factors.

Not saying i agree or disagree, just saying.

And what has happened to performance? If the kids are learning more and more successful I could give two shits about the racial makeup.
I don't disagree with your point Beretta, but I think we've strayed form the initial circumstance that this was a university setting, not a high school.

In a college setting, as with a professional setting, and the world at a large, diversity that exposes one to a broader, or divergent, view or understanding is probably worthwhile.

In lower school settings, it would be nice to think that diversity would foster greater acceptance or tolerance of others. Doesn't always work out that way, but I believe that's one of the intended outcomes
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Re: Too white

Postby Nabs » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:21 pm

but I believe that's one of the intended outcomes


Isn't there a road that is paved with those same intentions?

I know that if my daughter was forced to go to a school as a token (insert any race or color) kid to fill a quota of said children, I would move heaven and earth (and if need be my family) to put her in a school that I felt would give her the best education and the greatest opportunities at success.
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Re: Too white

Postby ohioboy » Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:02 pm

Nabs wrote:
but I believe that's one of the intended outcomes


Isn't there a road that is paved with those same intentions?

I know that if my daughter was forced to go to a school as a token (insert any race or color) kid to fill a quota of said children, I would move heaven and earth (and if need be my family) to put her in a school that I felt would give her the best education and the greatest opportunities at success.

good for you. :thumbsup: you should.

spinner, i am not saying i agree, just that i teach there. that is all.

i see the good and bad of having mixed groups. in my school, and my school only, it is a toss up. each has their own opinion and reasons.
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Re: Too white

Postby SpinnerMan » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:06 am

dudejcb wrote:In a college setting, as with a professional setting, and the world at a large, diversity that exposes one to a broader, or divergent, view or understanding is probably worthwhile.

I agree with this. However, skin color and ethnicity is not the diversity that is truly needed.

If you take the Obama's kids and all the other kids from Obama's Hyde Park neighborhood, there is probably a fair amount of racial and ethnic diversity, but is there really a broad diversity in world view, life experience, etc? Probably not. I'll bet almost every single one of those kids has two biological parents living with them that went to ivy league or near ivy league schools and got some form of an advanced degree making incomes in the top 1% and the kids attended private schools. The spectrum of political views, etc. is probably also pretty narrow as is their expose to people with a range of backgrounds, hobbies, etc. Hunting is probably viewed with horror by most. I'll bet none of them shoveled cow manure as a kid, raised their own food, worked construction or manufacturing or even knows anyone that does, etc.

ohioboy wrote:i see the good and bad of having mixed groups. in my school, and my school only, it is a toss up. each has their own opinion and reasons.
And that is all I was saying. It's not obvious, so we must keep an open mind.

My opinion is that the biggest problem is minimum standards for advancement, if they exist are far too low or are not faithfully upheld, so by the time a kid gets to middle school he can be so far behind that from that point forward effective education is not really possible. This is because the path of least resistance for the teacher is simply to kick the can down the road, unfortunately that can is some kids life.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304512504579491660423740176
Starting this spring, teachers will compile "promotion portfolios" for students deemed at risk of being held back from the next grade. These files can include test scores, writing samples, projects and report cards, officials said. Principals and teachers will determine in June which students need summer school, a way to avoid being held back.

While, I agree this seems like the way to go, the problem is in practice how will it really work.

My idea is two fold. First, they should do that at the halfway point and warn parents that their children are in danger of repeating if they are in the bottom 1/4th maybe. Everybody that would fail if they declined.

Also, that portfolio, without name, grade, or any other identifying information should be sent to another teacher for assessment of the child's current status. That person should say that the kid is roughly at the 2.5 grade level in math, 3.0 in reading, etc. and on average at a 2.75 grade level. Now if the kid is in 1st grade, that's great. If he is in 4th grade, he does not advance. If you want a backup, that portfolio can go to another teacher who reviews all of it and can interview the child if they wish. Also, the actual teacher should have done the same evaluation on that child. If her assessment is dramatically different than the independent assessments, this is an issue for management to resolve.

I just believe you need independent third party review. The same reason you must have double blind studies any time you are doing human assessments. It is the only way that I see beyond standardized tests to have an effective quality assurance program and where is quality assurance more critical and more valuable than the education of our children.
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Re: Too white

Postby ScaupHunter » Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:30 am

I have to agree and disagree at the same time Spinner.

We have huge issues in areas of this nation with education, just passing kids along without properly educating them, etc.... We also have a huge push by teachers unions to get better pay, less work, and less responsibility in many areas. If you want to add the the list of things you already expect teachers to do you are going to fight an uphill battle against and entrenched enemy in many area. Other areas you would find traction and make headway. It really comes down to a one method fits all does not work.

Why is it that today's teachers cannot be trusted to make sound decisions on a kids advancement when our teachers always could when we were kids? There lies the real problem. I actually doubt that many teachers are looking to pass the Double D and lazy kids on to the next grade. My research and anecdotal data all indicate it is the administration that often pushes just moving them along, or the state level education boards pushing an agenda. They don't want to look bad and see their problem kids statistics go up. How does it look when you would be summer schooling or failing as high as 55% of a bad areas kids each year?
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Re: Too white

Postby SpinnerMan » Tue Apr 22, 2014 10:32 am

ScaupHunter wrote:Why is it that today's teachers cannot be trusted to make sound decisions on a kids advancement when our teachers always could when we were kids? There lies the real problem.
My teachers could not be trusted. My school district was terrible when I was there and it is far worse today. My brother's first wife who went to the same school district and is about 6 or 8 years younger than me was given a diploma despite being functionally illiterate. The few of us going to college got a decent education because we got the best teachers. Those that were not often got terrible educations. One of the high school teachers, I only ever had him for home room, was such a total stoner that he didn't seem what he was doing half the time. The kids that needed the most help got stuck with him.

My dad who graduated from the same high school as I did 20 years before I did had a teacher that only returned the top portion of their tests with a grade on it. Literally ripped off the question and just gave them back their name and a grade. Everybody got an A, B, or C. My dad said they found the tests in the garbage one time. Guess what, they were not graded. He just made up the grades without ever grading the papers, let alone actually providing feedback to help the students improve.

ScaupHunter wrote:How does it look when you would be summer schooling or failing as high as 55% of a bad areas kids each year?
That's the problem. It would look to me like you are doing your job. Why else would you be doing that?

However, the failure rate would not be 55%. No group of kids is so stupid that they would fail kindergarten at a 55% rate if the kids are forced to meet the minimum standards. Same with 1st grade if only the kids that are ready for it are promoted to 1st grade. And by 2nd or 3rd grade, every kid and every parent would know that if their kid does not make the cut, they will not make the cut no matter how much yelling, screaming, and crying is done. The only way to do it is to do what is necessary to master the work.

It is only after years of teaching the kids that even if they do little to nothing, they will make the cut that human nature kicks in and more and more of them do not do enough to make the cut, particularly in communities where education is not valued as it should be.

As it is, yes failure rates can be as high as 55%, but that is because all the way along failure rate were artificially set near zero when in reality they were higher in actuality. Small failure rates early build over time. They are not self correcting. If anything they are self reinforcing and amplified as they impact others negatively.

You are a smart guy, which means your parents were almost certainly smart people. They probably moved out of the dysfunctional areas long ago. Most of my family did that with most of my cousins raised in good school districts where smart people raise their children and not in the dysfunctional school district where I was. The difference between me and my brothers and most kids was my parents had high expectations on school performance, so we had to do well regardless of what was acceptable to the teachers. Even so, my education was quite inferior to what it should have been, while better than nearly all kids I went to school with. In hindsight, probably the best teacher I had was one I disliked the most because she was hard on me for me lack of effort. She was spot on correct, but I was too dumb to see it then.
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Re: Too white

Postby ScaupHunter » Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:01 am

My favorite teachers were the tough ones. They always demanded my best and earned my respect quickly.

Both of my parents came from poor backgrounds. They both insisted on a quality education and made sure I got it. I lived a middle class life growing up. My mother was adamant on education and learning everything we could in school. Woe be to the any child of hers who acted up or talked back to a teacher. Get a C or lower grade and all hell descended upon your head. Both of my parents worked their way from poor to upper middle class the hard way.

My brothers and I all have educations and are doing better than our parents did at the same ages. Parenting and expectations with defined minimum standards makes a huge difference in how children turn out.
Last edited by ScaupHunter on Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Too white

Postby SpinnerMan » Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:13 am

ScaupHunter wrote:My favorite teachers were the tough ones. They always demanded my best and earned my respect quickly.
I never had a tough teacher in K-12, except for that one woman and I only had her for 6th grade English.

The writing was on the wall before I was in school for the kind of problems that are much more common today.

ScaupHunter wrote:Both of my parents came from poor backgrounds. They both insisted on a quality education and made sure I got it. I lived a middle class life growing up. My mother was adamant on education and learning everything we could in school. Woe be to the any child of hers who acted up or talked back to a teacher. Get a C or lower grade and all hell descended upon your head. Both of my parents worked their way from poor to upper middle class the hard way.

My brother and I all have educations and are doing better than our parents did at the same ages. Parenting and expectations with defined minimum standards makes a huge difference in how children turn out.

Sounds like a similar circumstance to me.

The difference in education is that it took zero effort to get better than a C. I took about 1 book a quarter home and then half the time, I'd still not do my homework until home room. Well, except for grade school handwriting which I always got a generous C, which to this day my handwriting looks like a 3rd grader. My middle school social studies teacher told me my handwriting was so bad, I would have to be a doctor. :lol3: Technically, I did, but I don't think that was what he meant. :biggrin:

Just think about all the kids I went to school with who were getting the generous C in reading, math, etc? While I still write like a little kid, they still read, write, and problem solve like a little kid. A much bigger problem. And as far as their parents knew, they were doing legitimate C work, which should be adequate, but not exceptional.
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Re: Too white

Postby ScaupHunter » Tue Apr 22, 2014 11:51 am

It is sad hearing stories like that spinner. All that money and effort wasted on educating our children. Having all that money wasted. The lives destroyed by that. Yet some folks still rant and rave about how we need to be come more socialistic.

I went through private schools for just the reasons you mention. My family busted tail, worked hard, and really pinched pennies to pay for that education for 3 boys. Once I was old enough I was working and paying part of, then eventually all of that education expense. I paid my own way through a private college without a penny from my parents. I didn't expect nor ask for help. They would have and could have. They had already done their share. College was on my dime and up to me to complete.
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Re: Too white

Postby ScaupHunter » Wed Apr 23, 2014 1:55 pm

I am almost 100% white with the exception of a hint of American Indian in the ancestry. If I marry a black gal and knock some kids out, are they too white? How about if they marry an Asian and have kids. Are those kids still too white? Just exactly where does that line transition to not too white start?
Last edited by ScaupHunter on Wed Apr 23, 2014 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Too white

Postby getemducks » Wed Apr 23, 2014 3:14 pm

ScaupHunter wrote:I am almost 100% white with the exception of a hint of American Indian in the ancestry. If I marry a black gal and knock some kids out, are they too white? How about if they marry an Asian and have kids. Are those kids still to white? Just exactly where does that line transition to not too white?

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