More Obamacare sh*t

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Re: More Obamacare sh*t

Postby Bluesky2012 » Tue May 20, 2014 9:09 am

http://people.howstuffworks.com/communism1.htm

Just to throw it out there, read the first page of the attached link, and then lets look back through recent history ESPECIALLY under this administration and cross examine the "progressive movement" with the pillars of communism. We can sit here and gild a turd all day, but its still a turd. The progressives preach "fairness", etc but at the end of the day it is a grab for communism. Subtle, sure. Too subtle for most people to recognize because liberals love to beat around the bush and use subtle, perverse methods to disguise it but at the end of the day progressive agendas (to include the ACA) is to move towards communism. The ACA is a FANTASTIC means to get more control of the market. End of story.
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Re: More Obamacare sh*t

Postby Glimmerjim » Tue May 20, 2014 9:09 am

Bluesky2012 wrote:
ScaupHunter wrote:There is nothing an Illinois Democrat hates more than the law and the Constitution. It reigns in their unbridled criminal activity horribly.



Incorrect. A hard working, self sufficient straight white man who has guns, a bible, and a good knowledge of the true reason for our constitution and history. That's the biggest threat to a communist, I mean democrat, but by marginalizing that man, they can move quickly.

Not the "C" word!!! That's it, I guess. I'm shamed and defeated.
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More Obamacare sh*t

Postby Bluesky2012 » Tue May 20, 2014 9:14 am

Break my argument on where the fundamental ideas of the modern "progressives" is not based off of a communist ideal and is not aimed at achieving the Karl Marx utopia.
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Re: More Obamacare sh*t

Postby Glimmerjim » Tue May 20, 2014 9:36 am

Bluesky2012 wrote:Break my argument on where the fundamental ideas of the modern "progressives" is not based off of a communist ideal?

I think we tend to look at things in black or white/ right or wrong etc. Always polar extremes. I think there are certain attributes in communism that can be added to a capitalistic democracy to make a hybrid, symbiotic system of govt. When we run scared everytime something different is mentioned we disallow ourselves the ability to change, possibly for the better. Attempting to assist some of our citizens to improve their lives, and all having the potential for unlimited upward mobility is a healthier system than or....
The system we currently employ is not working well. Agreed. But throwing out the baby with the bathwater is seldom the best answer.
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Re: More Obamacare sh*t

Postby DixieDawg » Tue May 20, 2014 9:45 am

Y'all need to run for office my opinion is that socialist policies won't work never have and never will for one reason eventually they run out of other people's money to spend I paid $22K in taxes last year I really don't want to pay more especially when it's managed so poorly

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Re: More Obamacare sh*t

Postby Bluesky2012 » Tue May 20, 2014 9:49 am

Glimmerjim wrote:
Bluesky2012 wrote:Break my argument on where the fundamental ideas of the modern "progressives" is not based off of a communist ideal?

I think we tend to look at things in black or white/ right or wrong etc. Always polar extremes. I think there are certain attributes in communism that can be added to a capitalistic democracy to make a hybrid, symbiotic system of govt. When we run scared everytime something different is mentioned we disallow ourselves the ability to change, possibly for the better. Attempting to assist some of our citizens to improve their lives, and all having the potential for unlimited upward mobility is a healthier system than or....
The system we currently employ is not working well. Agreed. But throwing out the baby with the bathwater is seldom the best answer.



People run scared from communism because there are two end results from communism. Individuals lose freedom, and people die. End of story. Id love to go ask the millions of people who were murdered by communism how they felt about it.

First off a democracy is a VERY dangerous thing. I don't think you know that at all, which is why our government was not designed or ever intended to run as a democracy. Most people do not realize that.

The method of "Attempting to assist some of our citizens to improve their lives" is the same thing as income redistribution. How ever you want to go about paraphrasing it, the "collective good" or what ever requires that the government takes from one to give to another. So yet again, under communism (in any degree) an individual must lose in order for another to gain via theft.

Under a free market where individuals cannnot take the rights of another, the only way for an individual to lose anything is by their own sacrifice (often due to lack of intelligence, work ethic etc). I cannot take money from you, unless you give it to me in exchange for a good, your own negligence, etc. and the government cannot take it from you either. Either method of stealing is a crime.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. Id just rather know that I earned my lunch and the government isn't taking a slice of mine to hand to a lazy ass whole. Any charity that an individual receives should be granted via benevolence, not theft. Scholarship, churches, communities, etc, but NEVER through a federal government where it is fed through the fat slime of bureaucracy and by the time it reaches the individual it is watered down and only a portion of what it once was. Ever wonder why churches and other non profits arent taxed? To encourage benevolence instead of the government stealing and redistributing their efforts.
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Re: More Obamacare sh*t

Postby Bluesky2012 » Tue May 20, 2014 9:52 am

DixieDawg wrote:Y'all need to run for office my opinion is that socialist policies won't work never have and never will for one reason eventually they run out of other people's money to spend I paid $22K in taxes last year I really don't want to pay more especially when it's managed so poorly

-BUBBA D-



There are millions who died under communist and socialist regimes or who currently suffer under them around the world who would agree.

And glimmer, it should be black and white. The federal government is a leviathan. The world should be more black and white.
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Re: More Obamacare sh*t

Postby Bluesky2012 » Tue May 20, 2014 9:54 am

Glimmer, do you know why we have an electoral college, why we have a senate, why senators used to be selected by the state and not by state popular vote? Do you see the dangers of democracy and why we were founded as a republic? I think your mind might be blown if you researched that.
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Re: More Obamacare sh*t

Postby SpinnerMan » Tue May 20, 2014 10:19 am

Glimmerjim wrote:I think we tend to look at things in black or white/ right or wrong etc. Always polar extremes. I think there are certain attributes in communism that can be added to a capitalistic democracy to make a hybrid, symbiotic system of govt.

I agree completely.

The family, the lowest level of government should be nearly communism.

Local government, the next level of government should have a communal education system, I prefer a single payer system with a free market competition for providing those services within the minimum standards set locally. Libraries and some other aspects of a communal system as well. Social services and other things like that as the community sees fit. However, I'd still keep it to only those things that most families cannot do efficiently. And a big role is keeping the families and individuals honest - basic law enforcement.

State government, now we are getting far removed from the people and we should be moving pretty far to the right. A major role is keeping the local governments honest and filling in the law enforcement gaps that the local government cannot do efficiently.

Federal government, now we are so far removed that we should be near the other polar extreme and the federal government should do absolutely nothing more than what cannot be done at the family, local, or state level. This is still a fairly large amount of money, probably on the order of $1.5 to $2.0 million million dollars. A major role is keeping the state and local governments honest, which they are failing miserably in places like Illinois and Chicago.

So yes, I agree that we need a hybrid system. The family should be near the communist pole and the federal government more toward the libertarian pole. The first step up the government ladder should be a big step toward roughly the half way point and the state another big step toward the libertarian pole from there.

Bluesky2012 wrote:Glimmer, do you know why we have an electoral college, why we have a senate, why senators used to be selected by the state and not by state popular vote? Do you see the dangers of democracy and why we were founded as a republic? I think your mind might be blown if you researched that.

And we absolutely must return to the state governments being represented in DC. Both the people and the states must have their representatives. As is, the Senate is almost redundant to the House. It fails to balance the interests of the individual and that of the states.
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Re: More Obamacare sh*t

Postby Bluesky2012 » Tue May 20, 2014 10:26 am

SpinnerMan wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:I think we tend to look at things in black or white/ right or wrong etc. Always polar extremes. I think there are certain attributes in communism that can be added to a capitalistic democracy to make a hybrid, symbiotic system of govt.

I agree completely.

The family, the lowest level of government should be nearly communism.

Local government, the next level of government should have a communal education system, I prefer a single payer system with a free market competition for providing those services within the minimum standards set locally. Libraries and some other aspects of a communal system as well. Social services and other things like that as the community sees fit. However, I'd still keep it to only those things that most families cannot do efficiently. And a big role is keeping the families and individuals honest - basic law enforcement.

State government, now we are getting far removed from the people and we should be moving pretty far to the right. A major role is keeping the local governments honest and filling in the law enforcement gaps that the local government cannot do efficiently.

Federal government, now we are so far removed that we should be near the other polar extreme and the federal government should do absolutely nothing more than what cannot be done at the family, local, or state level. This is still a fairly large amount of money, probably on the order of $1.5 to $2.0 million million dollars. A major role is keeping the state and local governments honest, which they are failing miserably in places like Illinois and Chicago.

So yes, I agree that we need a hybrid system. The family should be near the communist pole and the federal government more toward the libertarian pole. The first step up the government ladder should be a big step toward roughly the half way point and the state another big step toward the libertarian pole from there.

Bluesky2012 wrote:Glimmer, do you know why we have an electoral college, why we have a senate, why senators used to be selected by the state and not by state popular vote? Do you see the dangers of democracy and why we were founded as a republic? I think your mind might be blown if you researched that.

And we absolutely must return to the state governments being represented in DC. Both the people and the states must have their representatives. As is, the Senate is almost redundant to the House. It fails to balance the interests of the individual and that of the states.



I would agree with what you wrote but I firmly believe there is very little to no spectrum with the federal government. My only question is this 1.5-2 million dollars. Is that the budget of the federal government? I disagree completely because that alone could barely fund a battalion for a year. It is the federal governments responsibility to fund and maintain a navy (and thereby a marine corps), and we need more money than that for sure IF that is what you were implying. Aside from DoD, I do not think the federagl government needs much more money at all. Its a recent mindset that has shifted us towards believing that.


If there was intended to be a spectrum, what was the constitution (prior to the defacement of it in recent years) so restrictive of the federal government and so explicit in its roles? At that level there is only black and white, right and wrong, communism or liberty, theft or individual property.
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Re: More Obamacare sh*t

Postby SpinnerMan » Tue May 20, 2014 10:52 am

Bluesky2012 wrote:My only question is this 1.5-2 million dollars.
That's because you are off by a factor of a million. I said 1.5-2 million million (aka $1.5T - $2T) and we are currently close to $4T with defense being about $1T.

Bluesky2012 wrote:Aside from DoD, I do not think the federagl government needs much more money at all.
I think it needs more than most radical libertarians, but there is no doubt that defense should be the largest by far. My rough numbers put it at 50% or more.
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Re: More Obamacare sh*t

Postby Bluesky2012 » Tue May 20, 2014 11:17 am

Haha I was about to say. I thought you just mistype the extra million. I have done a lot of things in the marine corps and now work in part with appropriations, etc so I have good knowledge of that side of it and was gonna say, a few million ain't gonna cut it. I'm a staunch conservative and am all about cutting the federal government but that would be a bad joke.
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Re: More Obamacare sh*t

Postby Bluesky2012 » Tue May 20, 2014 11:19 am

SpinnerMan wrote:I think it needs more than most radical libertarians, but there is no doubt that defense should be the largest by far. My rough numbers put it at 50% or more.


I don't think most radical libertarians have seen how much it costs to maintain a military, or have a true understanding of our current capabilities and limitations. Most PEOPLE don't have a freaking clue. I'm deployed right now and I love reading speculative news articles when they aren't getting anywhere close to real intel briefs.
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Re: More Obamacare sh*t

Postby SpinnerMan » Tue May 20, 2014 11:49 am

Bluesky2012 wrote:Haha I was about to say. I thought you just mistype the extra million.

A million is about the biggest number most people can comprehend. If they make $50k/yr, it's 20 times what they make. Something they can comprehend. So I often say a million million instead of a trillion since most people cannot distinguish between a billion, trillion, quadrillion, and therefore might as way say a gazillion.

Most people simply cannot comprehend that we currently spend around $4 million dollars a million times per year just at the federal level and not including all the spending at the state and local level. I'd like to cut that back to spending 1.5 to 2.0 million dollars one million times per year. Which is still a huge number on the order of $5,000 or $6,000 for every man, woman, and child in the country legally and illegally.

Bluesky2012 wrote:I don't think most radical libertarians have seen how much it costs to maintain a military
I don't think it's that. I think it's that they live in a different fantasy world from Obama, but both our out of touch with reality. Not on what things cost, but on human nature.
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Re: More Obamacare sh*t

Postby Glimmerjim » Tue May 20, 2014 6:40 pm

Bluesky2012 wrote:Glimmer, do you know why we have an electoral college, why we have a senate, why senators used to be selected by the state and not by state popular vote? Do you see the dangers of democracy and why we were founded as a republic? I think your mind might be blown if you researched that.

No, I understand the difference between a democracy and a republic, Bluesky. It's just that I think that most State's Rights are a pretty antiquated system. This was a good idea in the 18th century, when it was conceived. There was time/distance that rendered it conceivable and useful. Those conditions exist no longer. We can go all tribal, but I think technologically we've outgrown that concept.
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Re: More Obamacare sh*t

Postby Indaswamp » Tue May 20, 2014 7:44 pm

Glimmerjim wrote:
Bluesky2012 wrote:Glimmer, do you know why we have an electoral college, why we have a senate, why senators used to be selected by the state and not by state popular vote? Do you see the dangers of democracy and why we were founded as a republic? I think your mind might be blown if you researched that.

No, I understand the difference between a democracy and a republic, Bluesky. It's just that I think that most State's Rights are a pretty antiquated system. This was a good idea in the 18th century, when it was conceived. There was time/distance that rendered it conceivable and useful. Those conditions exist no longer. We can go all tribal, but I think technologically we've outgrown that concept.

the idea of a federated republic is outdated??? SMH....
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Re: More Obamacare sh*t

Postby SpinnerMan » Tue May 20, 2014 9:07 pm

Glimmerjim wrote:It's just that I think that most State's Rights are a pretty antiquated system. This was a good idea in the 18th century, when it was conceived. There was time/distance that rendered it conceivable and useful. Those conditions exist no longer. We can go all tribal, but I think technologically we've outgrown that concept.

Do we have the same values Jim? Of course not. As long as people are diverse and we are as diverse as ever, the idea of local government and local standards are vastly superior to one size fits all. That is unless you will allow me to force my standards on everybody, then I'm cool with one size fits all central government. Until then, let's celebrate diversity and reject one size fits all central government.
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Re: More Obamacare sh*t

Postby Bluesky2012 » Tue May 20, 2014 11:02 pm

Glimmerjim wrote:
Bluesky2012 wrote:Glimmer, do you know why we have an electoral college, why we have a senate, why senators used to be selected by the state and not by state popular vote? Do you see the dangers of democracy and why we were founded as a republic? I think your mind might be blown if you researched that.

No, I understand the difference between a democracy and a republic, Bluesky. It's just that I think that most State's Rights are a pretty antiquated system. This was a good idea in the 18th century, when it was conceived. There was time/distance that rendered it conceivable and useful. Those conditions exist no longer. We can go all tribal, but I think technologically we've outgrown that concept.



So you have no idea then because time and distance have nothing to do with it...
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Re: More Obamacare sh*t

Postby Glimmerjim » Wed May 21, 2014 7:18 am

Bluesky2012 wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:
Bluesky2012 wrote:Glimmer, do you know why we have an electoral college, why we have a senate, why senators used to be selected by the state and not by state popular vote? Do you see the dangers of democracy and why we were founded as a republic? I think your mind might be blown if you researched that.

No, I understand the difference between a democracy and a republic, Bluesky. It's just that I think that most State's Rights are a pretty antiquated system. This was a good idea in the 18th century, when it was conceived. There was time/distance that rendered it conceivable and useful. Those conditions exist no longer. We can go all tribal, but I think technologically we've outgrown that concept.



So you have no idea then because time and distance have nothing to do with it...

Not if you like pretending you live in the 18th century they don't. Talk about consciously constructing our own Tower of Babel!
I will grant you that a democratic republic works well in Africa, though. :eek:
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Re: More Obamacare sh*t

Postby SpinnerMan » Wed May 21, 2014 7:41 am

Glimmerjim wrote:Not if you like pretending you live in the 18th century they don't. Talk about consciously constructing our own Tower of Babel!

So we need one world government? :huh: We certainly have to get rid of all these silly little countries that are smaller in population than a major city. Right?

You have a family, are families outmoded constructs of society? :huh:

You completely miss the point. Which is funny given how obsessed with diversity liberals are. However, the diversity that you all obsess about is skin deep. It is not the diversity of the head and heart. Does the differences between how you and your wife govern your family and how your neighbors do it, lead to the Tower of Babel? No it does not.

We are supposed to be 50 semi-autonomous nations. Whether Canada is in or out of that union does not create a Tower of Babel. Same with Europe. Same with South America. Same with Asia. Same with Africa.

States rights are nothing more than the equivalent of Robert Frost's saying that "good fences make good neighbors." Clear well defined boundaries keep conflicts to a minimum. Liberals wish to rip down those fences and that is why there is anger and animosity. Whether in the 13th century or the 30th century, good fences whether literal or figurative are essential to making good neighbors. Without clear boundaries, that are respected by all parties, then we will have a dysfunctional society. That is unless of course everybody submits to my authority.

But yes, sometimes people do bad things behind those fences, and when there is strong proof of that, then and only then do we rip down those fences, punish the guilty, and then put the fences back up for the innocent.

Respecting boundaries is so important to a civil society. This is truly timeless. I'll bet you and your wife have boundaries. It doesn't turn your marriage into the Tower of Babel. Those good fences make for a good marriage. As did the boundaries that your kids got to build as they grew up. No boundaries do not work. Individual, family, local government, state government, federal government, and international agreements. All are essential and all need to be respected and that never changes.

Of course, the busy-body control-freaks cannot stand being constrained by other people's fences. That's why all these fences are antiquated, and a one size fits all governed by them and those that agree with them is the only plausible option in their simpleton minds.

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Re: More Obamacare sh*t

Postby SpinnerMan » Wed May 21, 2014 8:40 am

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-insurance-bailout-20140521-story.html#page=1

The Obama administration has quietly adjusted key provisions of its signature healthcare law to potentially make billions of additional taxpayer dollars available to the insurance industry if companies providing coverage through the Affordable Care Act lose money.

The move was buried in hundreds of pages of new regulations issued late last week. It comes as part of an intensive administration effort to hold down premium increases for next year, a top priority for the White House as the rates will be announced ahead of this fall's congressional elections.

Same reason they lied about Benghazi. Same reason they lie about everything. They are power hungry and winning is the only thing they are obsessive/compulsive about because they sure as hell are not obsessive about actually solving problems for the people. The only real problem they worry about is keeping the power they crave.

In a series of White House meetings over the last several months, Obama and other senior administration officials have sought to persuade insurance company CEOs to nonetheless hold rates in check, arguing that the marketplaces would stabilize over time.

This should scare the hell out of everybody. I'm sure this is pretty standard fair for Putin, Castro, and every other dictatorship, but should not happen in America.

But with proposed 2015 rates beginning to come in, the administration acceded to industry demands for a clear guarantee that more money would be available to cover potential losses.
Quid pro quo aka the Chicago Way.

The entire Obamacare thing is one giant bait-and-switch and now they are running a bunch of shell games to keep the con through the next election, and then the next election, and then ... until it is simply too late to undo the mess that they have created like social security and medicare where they count on the fact that the average American does not realize that the government has stolen 100's of thousands of dollars through their incompetence and mismanagement.
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Re: More Obamacare sh*t

Postby Bluesky2012 » Wed May 21, 2014 9:29 am

Glimmerjim wrote:
Bluesky2012 wrote:
Glimmerjim wrote:
Bluesky2012 wrote:Glimmer, do you know why we have an electoral college, why we have a senate, why senators used to be selected by the state and not by state popular vote? Do you see the dangers of democracy and why we were founded as a republic? I think your mind might be blown if you researched that.

No, I understand the difference between a democracy and a republic, Bluesky. It's just that I think that most State's Rights are a pretty antiquated system. This was a good idea in the 18th century, when it was conceived. There was time/distance that rendered it conceivable and useful. Those conditions exist no longer. We can go all tribal, but I think technologically we've outgrown that concept.



So you have no idea then because time and distance have nothing to do with it...

Not if you like pretending you live in the 18th century they don't. Talk about consciously constructing our own Tower of Babel!
I will grant you that a democratic republic works well in Africa, though. :eek:



So it doesn't make any sense to you that because there are so many different groups of people, that because of these different lifestyles, etc that they are allowed to live in their own separate "nation" and live, tax, regulate, etc their own way. And then if they do not like that way, then they are allowed to up and move to a different state which more readily complies with their own beliefs etc? That is what a state is designed for, allowing diversity to mean diversity and to protect the individual rights of the individual groups and not be lumped under one huge rule. Why should the waste and bull crap of california have to affect the spending habits of any other state aside from COMMON requirements like national defense and interstate roads? That is diversity and protection of diversity, not this bull crap communist "believe in gays or we will end your career" protection of minority groups.

And why to get back to the original question. A DEMOCRACY is bad because it allows for majority rule. Majority rule is inherently evil because it provides at any time for the simple majority to take the rights of the minority aka 51% steals anything from the 49%. This is why we have the senate, etc, to protect the minority and prevent the majority of citizens from stealing from the minority as was intended by the fathers of this REPUBLIC nation. Because if the majority steals from the minority and that majority of the majority so on and so forth, by splitting rights by majority rule you eventually come up with an oligarchy which is EXACTLY why the REPUBLIC is designed for states rights, to prevent an Oligarchy and prevent what harry reid and obama are trying to do.

Why was it important that the senate maintain filibusters? To protect the minority and prevent an oligarchy.
Why were senators originally selected by a state legislature and able to be recalled at any time by the governer? So they wouldn't have to pander for majority votes and instead looking out solely for the states rights. It kept issues at a State level, representation at a State level, and thereby protected states and individuals from the evils of a democracy and thereby an oligarchy.

That is why the constitution framed a Representative Republic, not to be confused at all with a democracy. It is about states rights. It is about keeping you in California from stealing from me. It is to keep everyone involved in what they care about, and to drive ingenuity. If we have 50 separate competing states, we will drive competition. Efficiency will arise and progress will be made.

You squander states rights, you start taking away the rights of man.
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Re: More Obamacare sh*t

Postby Bluesky2012 » Wed May 21, 2014 9:40 am

Btw glimmer, about the whole progressive democrats are in fact communists, hope you read today's headlines. You're fellow "progressive" from Florida just said that he proved communism works!!! First you never even attempted to try and break my argument, but rather deflect it. Now a congressman of your persuasion just admitted it. Hmmmmm............. Maybe people need to bring back the old "C" word and start calling it like it is.
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Re: More Obamacare sh*t

Postby SpinnerMan » Wed May 21, 2014 9:47 am

Bluesky2012 wrote:Btw glimmer, about the whole progressive democrats are in fact communists, hope you read today's headlines. You're fellow "progressive" from Florida just said that he proved communism works!!! First you never even attempted to try and break my argument, but rather deflect it. Now a congressman of your persuasion just admitted it. Hmmmmm............. Maybe people need to bring back the old "C" word and start calling it like it is.

I buy his argument that he was being sarcastic.
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Re: More Obamacare sh*t

Postby Bluesky2012 » Wed May 21, 2014 9:54 am

SpinnerMan wrote:
Bluesky2012 wrote:Btw glimmer, about the whole progressive democrats are in fact communists, hope you read today's headlines. You're fellow "progressive" from Florida just said that he proved communism works!!! First you never even attempted to try and break my argument, but rather deflect it. Now a congressman of your persuasion just admitted it. Hmmmmm............. Maybe people need to bring back the old "C" word and start calling it like it is.

I buy his argument that he was being sarcastic.



The video wasn't working when I first read the article. After watching it, I can semi see what you're saying, but I don't agree that there wasn't a scoff or implication there.

Regardless, that isnt the big issue. I am waiting on glimmer to break the argument I presented about progressives and communists.
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