I Have Difficulty Supporting Obama

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Postby cannon » Wed May 21, 2008 1:52 pm

I don't mean, in any way, to indicate a belief that the "civil rights movement" wasn't warranted and well founded, or that we're not better off in many ways because of it. We, however, have long since embraced a fundamental misunderstanding of what "civil rights" are and how they should be protected. When I say "civil rights", you immediately think black/white issues. However, when you think about it, OSHA is a civil rights organization. The wage-and-hour restrictions defined within the framework of the Department of Labor amount to civil rights legislation, the INS is a civil rights organization, and laws making "hate speech" a crime or any crime involving a person of a certain ethnicity or sexual preference a "hate crime" is civil rights legislation. Thing is, those "civil rights" come with a cost.

Here is a perfect example: I hire an employee, who happens to be a female. I don't like her, and I want to fire her. I don't have any particular reason for it, I just can't get along with her. Unfortunately, when I fire her, I hire another with equal qualifications to do the job, who happens to be a male. Now I'm liable for gender discrimination. Make her mexican, make her black, make her gay. Doesn't matter.

The point is that, along the way, we regulate ourselves out of existence and lose all remnant of autonomy as human beings. We lose the personal freedom to make our own choices. We lose the autonomy to associate with whom we choose. "For the greater good", we are required to forfeit any semblance of identity and become what the state says we have to be. Hooters literally got sued because one of the franchisees refused to hire a male waiter for the job of "hooter's girl".

In protecting all the civil rights of others, we eventually give up all of our own. Not to other people, but to a government that tells us we're too irresponsible to think for ourselves. Face it, that's why they want the guns: they think we're too irresponsible, as human beings, to handle something so powerful. That's why we have seatbelt laws: they think we're too irresponsible, as mere human beings, to care for ourselves without jeopardizing our physical well-being.

At some point, we have to call BS. At some point, we have to realize that, while imprudent, it shouldn't be a crime to call a white guy a "cracker" or a homosexual a "fag." At some point, we have to admit that beating the crap out of someone is just wrong, and it ain't more wrong if the guy is gay, its still just wrong. At some point, we have to acknowledge that wrongful termination is simply wrong, not wrong to a greater degree if a person is a "minority."

I'm not asking you to agree, but I hope that answers your question regarding why a greater emphasis on "civil rights" is not on my agenda.
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Postby rman114 » Wed May 21, 2008 2:32 pm

Well that was the best response i have heard yet. I respect your opinion. :thumbsup:
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Postby pintaleslayer » Thu May 22, 2008 7:45 am

rman114 wrote:
cannon wrote:Well, I won't be voting for him, and I don't care if there's a yellow dog running against him. Here's why:

Image

His wife made the statement in February that, for the first time in her life, now that her husband had just won in a primary race, she was actually proud of our country.

The man's wife is not a patriot, and he obviously don't have much respect for our colors, which makes him a prime candidate for office in someone else's country, but unfit for office in mine, as far as I'm concerned.

He's scum.

What's THAT got to do with Bush?



First of all you don't have to have your hand over your heart during the national antham it's up to you. It is the Pledge of Allegiance that you have to do that. Look at any baseball game etc and see what people do, they do a little bit of everything.
But if that's not enough for you here:
Image


She was finally proud of her country because after the hardships she witnessed racially in her life (and any black person experiences racism in some way or the other in America) she was seeing her husband, who is black, get closer and closer to the highest office in the country.
To go from seperate bathrooms and waterfountains to possibly the Presidency, i could see why she would say this.

People criticize Obama on the Wright issue. I don't blame them. The guy said some hateful things.
I look at it this way. I read Obama's book and liked it. Was any of his legislation in Illinois racists towards whites. No.
Do i think Obama as president will have a racist policy towards whites? No.


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Postby rman114 » Thu May 22, 2008 10:01 am

pintaleslayer wrote:
Blah Blah Blah


LOL someone criticised my responses as "weak" but i think this takes the cake! :rolleyes:
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Postby Preacher1011 » Thu May 22, 2008 11:57 am

rman114 wrote:
pintaleslayer wrote:
Blah Blah Blah


LOL someone criticised my responses as "weak" but i think this takes the cake! :rolleyes:


:lol:
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Re: I Have Difficulty Supporting Obama

Postby dudejcb » Sat May 24, 2008 3:01 pm

Littlejohnny29 wrote:I know this was discussed over and over again, especially all over the media.

The stuff that his preacher said on national television was quite disturbing, inapproprite and disrespectful to the American people and the white race.

As you know, Obama supported and respected his pastor, then recently changed his mind when Rev Wright was on national televison not too long ago.

This is why I cannot, and will not support or vote for Obama.

Let's think about it for minute folks. Lets reverse the situation. If it were a white junior sentor running for President and his white pastor made the same comments on national television about the American people and the black race, what do you think would have happened.

The following would probably definitely happen:

1. There would be riots and protests from Here to LA.
2. The party would immediately ask him to step down.
3. He would not longer bare any credibility.
4. Anyone who would endorse or support him would probably be considered a racist and igonorant.

This I why, I cannot supoport Senator Obama. He respected and supported a man that said aweful things about this great country and the American people, and at one point during his campaign, stood up for this man. Just think about it folks, it just is not fair. It also does not make sense - regardless of what happened, people, and superdelegates continue to support and endorse senator Obama.


yeah whatr's his face is an ass. So what? I know lots of asses and even have beers with some of them, but that doesn't mean I agreee with most of what they say or think.

Did you hear what McCain's religious right supporter said about Hitler being God's tool to hunt the Jews and force them back to Isreal? McCain sought this guy's endorsement. Thankfully7 he had the integrity to throw him under the bus.

I don't hold a crazy preacher against someone unless they're acting in concdrt and doing the same things. Neither Obama or McCain was that kind of close with these nut cases. IMO
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Re: I Have Difficulty Supporting Obama

Postby Redline29 » Sat May 24, 2008 10:21 pm

dudejcb wrote:yeah whatr's his face is an ass. So what? I know lots of asses and even have beers with some of them, but that doesn't mean I agreee with most of what they say or think.

Did you hear what McCain's religious right supporter said about Hitler being God's tool to hunt the Jews and force them back to Isreal? McCain sought this guy's endorsement. Thankfully7 he had the integrity to throw him under the bus.

I don't hold a crazy preacher against someone unless they're acting in concdrt and doing the same things. Neither Obama or McCain was that kind of close with these nut cases. IMO


Ummmmm, what the hell are you talking about? That is about as untrue and out of context statment as you can make.
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Postby jaysweet3 » Sun May 25, 2008 7:28 am

There is a huge difference here. Obama has stated many times that Rev Right was his and his famalies ADVISOR for over 20 years. Now when Right gets exposed for what he truly is, Obama cuts ties. This can mean one of two things about Obama. He is either a racist or has truly bad judgement.
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Postby seastreet » Sun May 25, 2008 8:32 am

jaysweet3 wrote:There is a huge difference here. Obama has stated many times that Rev Right was his and his famalies ADVISOR for over 20 years. Now when Right gets exposed for what he truly is, Obama cuts ties. This can mean one of two things about Obama. He is either a racist or has truly bad judgement.


The actual words used by Obama was "close friend and spritual advisor". Obama was also recorded in conversation to have said to Wright...

Wright: "You know there may be a time when you will have to distant yourself from me?"

Obama: "Yes, I know."

That whole drama from Wright / Obama was staged. So much so, that both of them deserve an Academy Award, instead of political office.

Here is a great article to demonstrate my point...

http://nassaupolitics.blogspot.com/2008/05/obama-vs-wright-vs-obama-vs-wright-case.html
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Re: I Have Difficulty Supporting Obama

Postby LIGHT12 » Sun May 25, 2008 11:40 am

dudejcb wrote:
yeah whatr's his face is an ass. So what? I know lots of asses and even have beers with some of them, but that doesn't mean I agreee with most of what they say or think.

Did you hear what McCain's religious right supporter said about Hitler being God's tool to hunt the Jews and force them back to Isreal? McCain sought this guy's endorsement. Thankfully7 he had the integrity to throw him under the bus.

I don't hold a crazy preacher against someone unless they're acting in concdrt and doing the same things. Neither Obama or McCain was that kind of close with these nut cases. IMO


I'll tell anyone who hasn't heard about this the real story. John McCain was invited to a participate in a rally/ fundraiser by John Hagee a wacky chrisian evangelist. Looking to get the religiuos vote he jumped at the chance. But his people did not do there home work on him. And look deep enough into what he has said in the past. A huge mistake by McCains camp. NOthing like being mentored or guided by a nut job for 20 years.

Nice job dude, but you are way off. Make sure you know what your talking about before shooting off on here. I think there are a few of us that can more than hold there own in a political debate. Even against professionals. Most of the time we choose to keep our mouths shut tho. Its not worth the energy fighting with someone who only wants to twist facts for there own use and not see reason.
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Re: I Have Difficulty Supporting Obama

Postby dudejcb » Tue May 27, 2008 10:16 am

LIGHT12 wrote:Nice job dude, but you are way off. Make sure you know what your talking about before shooting off on here. I think there are a few of us that can more than hold there own in a political debate. Even against professionals. Most of the time we choose to keep our mouths shut tho. Its not worth the energy fighting with someone who only wants to twist facts for there own use and not see reason.


I was repeating what I had heard on new program. However, you version sounds reasonable and correct. So thanks fo rthe update. I wasn't trying to twist facts... it was simply an honest inaccuracy.

Here's a story to illustrate the point I was attempting (poorly) to make. When I was a kid I was president of our church youth organization for about four years in a row, and as such spent a lot of time with our pastor. He worked at being our spritual guide and semi-personal advisor. A few years later, after I had left the church, I found out he had come out of the closet and was way gay. He never mentioned gayness to me. So, because I knew him on regular basis does that taint me gay-wise? should it similarly taint Obama or McCain?

The answer to all IMO is NO. To be fair, we should just listen to what they actually say and see what they actually do, make our judgements on that and not read anything extra into it using the world of crazies around us..
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Re: I Have Difficulty Supporting Obama

Postby LIGHT12 » Tue May 27, 2008 11:54 am

dudejcb wrote: To be fair, we should just listen to what they actually say and see what they actually do, make our judgements on that and not read anything extra into it using the world of crazies around us..


In an election what they say is meaningless. They are trying to get elected. And instead of looking at what they do, look at what they have done. It will tell you wha they will do in the future a vaste majority of the time.
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Postby littleone » Tue May 27, 2008 12:02 pm

in the history of the human race, werent there more white slaves in the world than blacks? seems the bible told me so..........
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Postby jrockncash » Tue May 27, 2008 6:29 pm

They dont count cause they arent belly aching about it. :rofl:
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Postby rmh » Tue May 27, 2008 6:39 pm

Just about every society has had some form or another of slavery at some point. Greece, Rome, China, Native Americans. Some were different forms than the US, but still slavery.
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Postby gangrig25 » Tue May 27, 2008 7:24 pm

I'm 34 years old (I think) and have never voted.
I will be at the both this year if any way possible.
If that big eared, boot lipped, whatever gets in .....

It wont be my fault!!!! :tongue:
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yall better pay attention

Postby NCALGunr » Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:33 am

Obama wants to take away your 2nd ammendment rights...pay attention! He is worse than that stale old Clinton!
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Postby J Loves Huntin » Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:08 pm

Along with tens of other qualities I hate about Oboma, he wants my guns, my money and my vote. HE WILL GET NONE OF THEM! :hammer: :mad: :thumbsdown:
Even though McCain is not the best presidential choice we have ever had we must choose him otherwise WE ARE DOOMED! :help:
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Amen Brother!

Postby NCALGunr » Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:15 pm

:thumbsup:
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Re: I Have Difficulty Supporting Obama

Postby SpinnerMan » Tue Jun 03, 2008 8:12 am

rman114 wrote:I read Obama's book and liked it.
I've read about 2/3 of his second book. It is mindless drivel.

dudejcb wrote:Did you hear what McCain's religious right supporter said about Hitler being God's tool to hunt the Jews and force them back to Isreal? McCain sought this guy's endorsement. Thankfully7 he had the integrity to throw him under the bus.

I don't hold a crazy preacher against someone unless they're acting in concdrt and doing the same things. Neither Obama or McCain was that kind of close with these nut cases. IMO
That was not McCain's pastor. That is true guilt by association. McCain never described this guy has his spirtual mentor. He did not baptize McCain's children. This was not the church McCain chose to raise his children. Just think about all the hateful garabage that is being pumped into the heads of the children at Obama's church. How will these kids ever fit into mainstream America? This is how Obama chose to raise his children. That speaks volumes.

Like it or not. For blacks to be successful, they have to work with whites. Whites do not have to work with blacks. There simply are a hell of a lot more whites than blacks. If we lived in Kenya, then the whites would have to get along with the blacks. Teaching your kids that the majority hate you and they are out to get you is a recipe for disaster. It doesn't matter what color the majority is.

There are going to be (choise your own explictive) every where in the world. You will be discriminated against in some way because you are black, white, hispanic, fat, young, old, ugly, good looking, man, woman, gay, straight, .... That is a fact. It always will be a fact. Is it easier for the majority than the minority? Of course. To get on your high horse and demand perfection from people, is just plain stupid. The nonsense coming from Obama's church and that his children were taught, doesn't prepare you to be successful. It prepares you for a miserable, paranoid, and unhappy life. This is how Obama chose to raise his children and it sounds like how he himself was raised.

Look at the Democratic party. My group gets screwed worse. No my group gets screwed worse. If you don't vote for Obama, you confirm blacks belief that they are screwed worse. If you don't vote for Hillary, you confirm women are screwed worse. If you don't support open borders, then hispanics are screwed worse. It's disasterous.

It's nearly 100% guaranteed that you will be successful in the U.S. if you do just a few simple things. That's what we need to teach kids. Not this it's hopeless nonsense.
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Postby Mare_Vitalis » Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:13 am

rman114 wrote:
cannon wrote:Well, I won't be voting for him, and I don't care if there's a yellow dog running against him. Here's why:

Image

His wife made the statement in February that, for the first time in her life, now that her husband had just won in a primary race, she was actually proud of our country.

The man's wife is not a patriot, and he obviously don't have much respect for our colors, which makes him a prime candidate for office in someone else's country, but unfit for office in mine, as far as I'm concerned.

He's scum.

What's THAT got to do with Bush?



First of all you don't have to have your hand over your heart during the national antham it's up to you. It is the Pledge of Allegiance that you have to do that. Look at any baseball game etc and see what people do, they do a little bit of everything.
But if that's not enough for you here:
Image


She was finally proud of her country because after the hardships she witnessed racially in her life (and any black person experiences racism in some way or the other in America) she was seeing her husband, who is black, get closer and closer to the highest office in the country.
To go from seperate bathrooms and waterfountains to possibly the Presidency, i could see why she would say this.

People criticize Obama on the Wright issue. I don't blame them. The guy said some hateful things.
I look at it this way. I read Obama's book and liked it. Was any of his legislation in Illinois racists towards whites. No.
Do i think Obama as president will have a racist policy towards whites? No.



Back when I was still playing basketball I would stand with my hands behind my back, because that’s what the pros did, during the National Anthem. My uncle who is retired Air Force made it very clear to me after a game that he came to that you honor those who gave their lives for our country by placing your hand over your heart. I thought that I was saluting in a way because that’s what I had seen, but I have not made that mistake since...hell most people at games don’t even remove their hat anymore because we as a hole have become self-indulged and disrespectful...when was the last time that it has truly been SILENT during a moment of silence? People don’t feel that they should have to have their conversation interrupted for something as trivial as a moment of silence...
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Re: I Have Difficulty Supporting Obama

Postby dudejcb » Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:16 am

SpinnerMan wrote:
dudejcb wrote:Did you hear what McCain's religious right supporter said about Hitler being God's tool to hunt the Jews and force them back to Isreal? McCain sought this guy's endorsement. Thankfully, he had the integrity to throw him under the bus.

I don't hold a crazy preacher against someone unless they're acting in concert and doing the same things. Neither Obama or McCain was that kind of close with these nut cases. IMO.

SpinnerMan wrote:That was not McCain's pastor. That is true guilt by association.

I was not promoting guilt by association. I was only brigning up a timely example of another religious nut case, and I went to the effort to exhonorate McCAin for tossing him aside. However, it is true I believe that McCain saughtthe guys endorsement as an avenue to court the religious right... which is a normal thing to do in politics.


SpinnerMan wrote:McCain never described this guy has his spirtual mentor. He did not baptize McCain's children. This was not the church McCain chose to raise his children. Just think about all the hateful garabage that is being pumped into the heads of the children at Obama's church. How will these kids ever fit into mainstream America? This is how Obama chose to raise his children. That speaks volumes..
This could be considered guilt by association.

SpinnerMan wrote:Like it or not. For blacks to be successful, they have to work with whites. Whites do not have to work with blacks. There simply are a hell of a lot more whites than blacks. If we lived in Kenya, then the whites would have to get along with the blacks. Teaching your kids that the majority hate you and they are out to get you is a recipe for disaster. It doesn't matter what color the majority is..
This is a bit more edgy and wrongheaded than I am comfortable with.

first: for any one to be optiamlly successful they should be wiling to work with anyone of good heart. Numbers may matter some, but they shouldn't and there are many historical examples of minorities or women excelling regardless of majority/minority satatus. I agree that it doesn't matter what color the majority is, and that teaching fear and hatred to kids is simply wrong. I'm not convinced that Obama has come anywhere near doing that.

SpinnerMan wrote:There are going to be (choise your own explictive) every where in the world. You will be discriminated against in some way because you are black, white, hispanic, fat, young, old, ugly, good looking, man, woman, gay, straight, .... That is a fact. It always will be a fact. Is it easier for the majority than the minority? Of course. To get on your high horse and demand perfection from people, is just plain stupid. The nonsense coming from Obama's church and that his children were taught, doesn't prepare you to be successful. It prepares you for a miserable, paranoid, and unhappy life. This is how Obama chose to raise his children and it sounds like how he himself was raised..
Yes, many people do discriminate and hate, and it is stupid; Skinheads, KKK members, holocaust deniers, anti-semites and other fringe ntiwtis of all types. However, to repeat, there has been no evidence that Obama has raised his kids in any particular way. We don't live in his house so we really cannot know. Everythign else is speculation driven by...

SpinnerMan wrote:Look at the Democratic party. My group gets screwed worse. No my group gets screwed worse. If you don't vote for Obama, you confirm blacks belief that they are screwed worse. If you don't vote for Hillary, you confirm women are screwed worse. If you don't support open borders, then hispanics are screwed worse. It's disasterous..
R's do the same thing only their individual segments are different... religious right, moderates, etc.

SpinnerMan wrote:It's nearly 100% guaranteed that you will be successful in the U.S. if you do just a few simple things. That's what we need to teach kids. Not this it's hopeless nonsense.
I agree. Do your best. Work hard and position yourself so that when opportunity presents itself, you can benefit from it. And don't get mad when someone else gets a break... just realize that your break is one step closer to coming your way. Be positive!
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Postby SpinnerMan » Tue Jun 03, 2008 10:19 am

I agree that things should be basically as you describe them. Everybody should be nice, treat everybody equally, not lie, cheat or steal, ... That isn't how it works all of the time. You must be able to deal with the world as it is and not get stuck because it's not the way you would like it to be. We should all work to make things better, but in the meantime, you have to deal with things as they are. If you can't do that, you have real problems ahead for yourself. The nonsense coming out of the likes of Rev. Wright is counterproductive at best.

dudejcb wrote:However, to repeat, there has been no evidence that Obama has raised his kids in any particular way. We don't live in his house so we really cannot know. Everythign else is speculation driven by...
The reason you take your children to church is to help raise them. What other way can you interpret it? You don't want it to be true, but it is a fact that Obama chose to raise his children in this particular church with this particular pastor. You just choose to minimize that fact. Nothing I can say will change your mind. How can his kids and all the other children in this church not be influenced by this garbage?

I'm guessing you were not raised in a church. Therefore, you don't appreciate the role the church plays in educating your child. The pastor is supposed to be a very respected man with far greater influence than any single teacher has.

Maybe he told his kids this is all a bunch of crap and we are only going here to advance my political career. Do all the children in this church have parents that aspire to the Presidency? He supported this church and what they stood for for two decades. Now he says take me off the members list. No condemnation. No discuss of how bad this stuff is for its members and there children. He just wants to pretend like it was no big deal and besides I was clueless about what was going on at my church anyways. He's a busy guy, why would he know what his kid were hearing at church on Sunday.
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Postby dudejcb » Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:54 am

Okay Spinner,

I don't want to overly parse words but...

yeah, we have to deal withthe aorld as it is. The best we can do is try and remember to take the high road whenever possible; and I often forget to do this if I just react.

I was "raised" in a church, but the church didn't raise me. In fact I was president of our church youth league for about 4 years unitl I was confirmed... and by that time had witnessed enough hypocrisy--people being areses all week, and then saying good things on Sunday only--that I didn't think I need the church. I just needed to be a good person. My take is that most people take their kids to church so they will learn about the Bible and learn the lessons of charity, tolerance, and good deeds. It's not about hero worship.

I don't recall any of my friends (who went to church almost every Sunday) as necessarily being raised by the church. We all talked about the wierd aspects of our ministers and Fathers... especially my Catholic friends, who when we had snow days with no school, and we'd go to the Catholic schools to play basketball... they always said to "watch out for Father Feeney." So, while we repected church people, we didn't necessarily respect them individually unless their actions drew respect.

You know, the old saying: Authority is given but respect is earned. that applies to everyone, supervisors, managers, politicians, and clergy. Even though I was involved in lots of church activities, it was mostly with other church goers (my peers) with the subtle supervision (as best they could) of the Pastors. But I never got too chummy with the pastors on an individual level.
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Postby SpinnerMan » Tue Jun 03, 2008 3:00 pm

OK. Sounds like you went to a lousy church. They all aren't like that. Few actually are in my experience, but obviously I haven't been around that many, so maybe my view is skewed.

However, you make my point. You learned a lot from your experience at church. However, you learned the wrong things, at least with regards to what you should learn from a church. That is my point.

If Obama is so brilliant, how could he not have a clue what was being taught to the children at his church by his spiritual mentor? I don't believe he was clueless. I believe he is just a liar. However, may be he is just clueless. You are correct that I really don't know which one it is. Maybe there is a third option, but I can't dream one up.
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