Immigration vs. History

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Immigration vs. History

Postby Pumpgunner » Wed May 21, 2008 4:10 pm

This may start another firestorm, but I've been doing some serious thinking about the whole immigration thing lately. I consider myself a patriotic American, though definitely not right wing (can't stand GWB, was against the war from the start, etc.) Whatever your political leaning is, you can't get around the fact that America is a country built on immigration, by immigrants. What does the verse at the bottom of the Statue of Liberty, which is an icon for patriotic Americans, say? Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free. Every white American's ancestors were immigrants. Also, nearly wave of immigration in America's history has had the same opposition, for nearly the same reasons, as the wave of immigrants from the south has now. Chinese, Eastern European, Irish, Polish, and many other ethnic cultures were all once in the same place that Mexicans and Central Americans are now, and now they are an integral part of our nation's culture.

I've known and worked with many illegals over the years (was a professional chef for 10 years, now I work as a carpenter) and almost to a man they were hard-working, law-abiding family men who personified the American Dream of working hard, providing for your family, and making a better place in the world for their kids. America is the richest country in the world, and if we can't make room at the table and share the wealth with the less fortunate, then something in our core values as a society is wrong. History has proven that immigrants enrich a culture, and every mass wave of immigration in our nation's history has had the end effect of enriching our culture and making our nation a stronger, more balanced country. (except maybe the 1st, just ask the Indians.)

PS-if you get the chance (or have Netflix watch it now), check out the 5th season episode of Penn & Tellers Bull@#$% that's about immigration. Highly funny and entertaining!
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Postby Preacher1011 » Wed May 21, 2008 4:16 pm

Here is my problem with illegal immigration on the side of Mexicans. They will come from our country and take from it and not accept our values and our customs. Instead they impose their values and customs onto us Americans. Don't believe me? Look at California. There are a few instances where Mexicans have flown their flag over ours. That's what gets me. Not that they are illegal or they don't try, but they refuse to accept American culture. Not to mention they are forming new gangs every single day, but that's another "controversial issue."
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Postby captainduckhead » Wed May 21, 2008 4:42 pm

Preacher1011 wrote:Here is my problem with illegal immigration on the side of Mexicans. They will come from our country and take from it and not accept our values and our customs. Instead they impose their values and customs onto us Americans. Don't believe me? Look at California. There are a few instances where Mexicans have flown their flag over ours. That's what gets me. Not that they are illegal or they don't try, but they refuse to accept American culture. Not to mention they are forming new gangs every single day, but that's another "controversial issue."

Bravo Preacher! You just redeemed yourself 100% for that abortion malarcky.
That's the exact problem I have with immigration. Back when Ellis Island was in operation, we NEEDED the people, and they NEEDED us. Immigrants from Italy, Holland, Ireland, England, Mexico, China, Japan, all had a dream. The dream was to come to America and become AMERICAN. People would pass through the gates at Ellis Island and literally kiss the ground out of thankfulness. They worked hard to SHED their ethnic cultural differences and BLEND in and become AMERICAN. During WWII, How many thousands of Japanese American solderiers, marched proudly, fought bravely, and died gloriously in the name of the Red, White, and Blue? They wouldn't have dreamed of flying their home countries flag benieth the American flag just to show their heritage, They LOVED AMERICA. and anyone who doesn't LOVE America can get the hell out, and go straight back to where they came from. Thes Chicano gangbangers, with the mexican flag, or those Heroin shooting raft riders down in florida with the Cuban flag on their dashboard. They aren't Americans and do not deserve the rights that my Grandfathers fought to provide them with, so to hell with them all.
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Postby rmh » Wed May 21, 2008 5:22 pm

I had one ancestor who signed the Declaration of Independence. Neither my 2great-grandmother or my great-grand mother spoke English. All the decendents did. Many fought in the Civil War, some died. One branch of the family came from Belgium, the girls became nurses when they grew up. Everyone has worked, farmed, mined.
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Postby Pumpgunner » Wed May 21, 2008 5:29 pm

As far as forming gangs and flying the Mexican flag above the US, I don't think that it's illegal immigrants doing that. I've traveled a lot through Mexico (Yucatan, Quintana Roo, Sonora, Baja Sur, and Jalisco) and also a lot in the border areas on the American side, and there is a large difference in Mexican culture vs. Chicano/Latino culture. Illegal immigrants tend to want to stay under the radar and not draw attention to themselves. I personally think that the flag raisers and gang bangers represent a tiny, radical segment of Hispanic culture in the US, just like Al Qaeda represents a tiny, radical segment of Muslim culture. What makes a better news story, the huge majority that's integrated with American culture or the small, vocal minority that running up flags and marching in the streets?
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Postby wackemstackem » Wed May 21, 2008 5:46 pm

Im the grandson of German imigrants,German is my heritage American is my nationality.Im not German American,Im an American.
My gand pop came here and diddent speak a word of english had a small suit case of clothes and a few bucks in his pocket and started a new life.
He diddent get section 8 housing welfare or food stamps.He got a room in a tenament building in Astoria Queens and a job at a Brewery as a machinest.
He worked hard met a girl from his home town that was born here and got married.
Altho he had an accent I never once head my grandfather speak German,my grandmother taught me to count to ten in German and thats it.
I asked my father why,he told me his parents only spoke German in the house when they did not want the kids to understand what they were saying and that when company was over and German was spoken my GF would say were in America now we speak english in this house.
He did not need special forms in German to fill out for a drivers license,He did not need an interpiter when he took my pop to school.He learned english,He adopted American cultures and American ways and became a proud American.
I have yet to meet an hispanic or an eastern block (Ukrane or Albanian) even come close to these values.
Its allways In my country we do this or back in my country.Every where you look their is a billboard or especially on the subway theirs ads and what not all in spanish.Dont ya have to speak english any more to become naturalizeds any more :huh:
They even have firearm forms in spanish.
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Postby CLUTCHfan » Wed May 21, 2008 5:54 pm

wackemstackem wrote:I have yet to meet an hispanic or an eastern block (Ukrane or Albanian) even come close to these values.


You hit the nail on the head with that one. Used to do alot of business with/for the Ukes. Now I hear that accent and automatically get pi$$ed off and mean. Pavalovs Theory, I guess.
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Postby jrockncash » Wed May 21, 2008 7:02 pm

http://unclesamsamerica.blogspot.com/20 ... ed-by.html


http://journals.aol.com/foxxgiavani/ill ... -taking-o/


http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_t ... alien.html


Just a couple of references to look at. Its either ridiculously naive, or ignorant to think that Illegals arent in gangs, commiting crimes, or causing problems. The fact that they are illegal should be an example of the type of people they are. This country was not based on Illegal immigration, it is based on the type of thing the Capt was talking about. Dont listen to the hype, there is a legal process for coming to this country and many take the course and learn a little about the US and do it the right way.

And keep the whinning bleeding heart story about some illegal that is really a nice guy to yourselve. No one cares
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Postby tstroud05 » Wed May 21, 2008 10:01 pm

First of all, I am as white as they come.

Explain to me how it is okay for british settlers to come to America, and rip it out of the Native American's hands. Only leaving them with bits and pieces of the land they once knew to practice their religions and beliefs. What was this act? Was it okay? In my opinion no. I guess what the majority is interpreting is that we as whites should have taken up the native american's way of life. Instead of "PUSHING" our ways onto them.

My point is that there will always be bad with the good. You get Italians and you get the Italian mafia. You get african americans and you get urban gangs. Whites- skin heads and KKK.

Someone tell me who is CONTENTLY going to sit in a field and pick strawberries all day for the rest of their lives. These type of ppl are needed in the US economy for many reasons. I am a supervisor at a manufacturing plant. There are three mexicans that work here.
They will do their job better than any white guy that I have trained in the same position. Never late to work. Always stays over. This is just an example. but about 95% of the hispanics that I have met or witnessed, done their jobs, well, and went home.

We want to complain about the language. Well go to Europe. Every Frenchman, Spaniard, and Italian that I have met can fluently speak their neighboring country's language. If not several european languages.

So in closing do I push away immigration? NO. I embrace it, learn from it, and respect those who look at this great country as a refuge from tribulations of theirs and their family's lives.
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Postby luckyduck75 » Wed May 21, 2008 10:25 pm

tstroud05 wrote:First of all, I am as white as they come.

Explain to me how it is okay for british settlers to come to America, and rip it out of the Native American's hands. Only leaving them with bits and pieces of the land they once knew to practice their religions and beliefs. What was this act? Was it okay? In my opinion no. I guess what the majority is interpreting is that we as whites should have taken up the native american's way of life. Instead of "PUSHING" our ways onto them.

My point is that there will always be bad with the good. You get Italians and you get the Italian mafia. You get african americans and you get urban gangs. Whites- skin heads and KKK.

Someone tell me who is CONTENTLY going to sit in a field and pick strawberries all day for the rest of their lives. These type of ppl are needed in the US economy for many reasons. I am a supervisor at a manufacturing plant. There are three mexicans that work here.
They will do their job better than any white guy that I have trained in the same position. Never late to work. Always stays over. This is just an example. but about 95% of the hispanics that I have met or witnessed, done their jobs, well, and went home.

We want to complain about the language. Well go to Europe. Every Frenchman, Spaniard, and Italian that I have met can fluently speak their neighboring country's language. If not several european languages.

So in closing do I push away immigration? NO. I embrace it, learn from it, and respect those who look at this great country as a refuge from tribulations of theirs and their family's lives.



couldn't agree more my man! we are a nationalist country, and will be the downfall to our empire with out a doubt... too ignorant and uneducated to not understand the values they can bring...
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Postby Dolsmi » Thu May 22, 2008 7:28 am

tstroud05 wrote:
So in closing do I push away immigration? NO. I embrace it, learn from it, and respect those who look at this great country as a refuge from tribulations of theirs and their family's lives.


Immigration is great! The US accepts immigration from all countries everyday, all the time.
It's the ILLEGAL immigration that is the problem.
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Postby jrockncash » Thu May 22, 2008 7:54 am

Thanks Dolsmi my point exactly.
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Postby Preacher1011 » Thu May 22, 2008 9:46 am

tstroud05 wrote:[color=green]
Someone tell me who is CONTENTLY going to sit in a field and pick strawberries all day for the rest of their lives. These type of ppl are needed in the US economy for many reasons.


Name them. You do know that unemployment has sky-rocketed in recent years to legal U.S. residents right? Why might this be? Because the Mexicans come up here and work for 2 bucks an hour and the company doesn't have to pay retirement and the such for them. There are plenty of legal white, black, and brown residents who would take your aweful strawberry picking job. Believe me, I've done grunt work and actually enjoyed it. I've worked stucco, planted trees, pulled weeds, and many more. Ask me how many times I've been late for my job... I will answer you with once. ONE TIME and that's because the power went out and the alarm didn't go off. Other than that I'm 15 minutes early everyday. You can't pull the "Mexicans are harder workers" card out. There are plenty of people who work just as hard, they just can't survive for the same wage you'd pay an illegal.
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Postby rmh » Thu May 22, 2008 11:07 am

Agriculture has depended on "guest workers" for decades. Are some illegal, yes. That's because people won't take those jobs. In addition to political pressure, the tobacco economy died in MD because of a shortage of workers. The same would happen to edibles. If you want to continue to have the world's cheapest food that system will continue. While not defending illegal immigrants I have to challenge you on a couple things. Current unemployment is close to an all time low nationally. There are pockets of high unemployment in various areas, many times that have lasted for years. Mostly because the industries have left and nothing replaced them. That is the nature of this economy and always has been. Look on the door frame of your GM car, it'll have a "Body by Fisher" logo. Fisher made carriages. If you want to get after illegals for taking jobs you should instead go after the employers who hire them. The nature of business is to pay workers as little as possible and still have workers. The reality is that the American worker has priced himself out of the world market in many industries. Years ago a company I worked for was building plants in China, Venezuela and Egypt. The reason? Labor rates were 1/10 or less than here. It was cheaper to make and ship glass containers from those countries than make them here. That was late 70's.
In my experience immigrants show up on time and in the estimation of many supervisors work harder. We had a few Viet Namese refugees working at the plant I mentioned, we told them to slow down because they made the rest of us look bad. As far as showing up on time my boss right now rarely is here when school begins and you can count on 15% of the staff to be late on a daily basis.
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Postby Pumpgunner » Thu May 22, 2008 11:47 am

RMH brings up another important part of the labor situation here now-US companies moving overseas or into Mexico to take advantage of lower taxes, nonexistent labor laws, and no or little environmental regulations. It's pretty disgusting how much of the product in your average Wal-mart was made overseas by sweatshop labor. How many US jobs have been lost due to companies moving out of the country?
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Postby Preacher1011 » Thu May 22, 2008 11:50 am

You're right, he does. I think sending labor off because it's cheaper is garbage. The companies doing this should be taxed so much on thier goods that it would be cheaper keeping the labor here. We shouldn't give breaks to people sending labor out.
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Postby rmh » Thu May 22, 2008 12:44 pm

Preacher1011 wrote:You're right, he does. I think sending labor off because it's cheaper is garbage. The companies doing this should be taxed so much on thier goods that it would be cheaper keeping the labor here. We shouldn't give breaks to people sending labor out.


In some cases the tax situation is why the companies moved. Who do you think pays the taxes corporations are charged? It's a pass through, the end consumer pays it not the company.
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Postby tstroud05 » Thu May 22, 2008 3:18 pm

My point on the word "content" was not as much the work. Anyone would spend the rest of their lives picking strawberries if the pay was right. But the bottom line is that the US economy doesn't allow a farmer to pay a guy $35,000 a year to do these types of jobs. SOOOO in walks the $2.00/ hour mexican who will pick his heart out until the day he dies. Send his money back to mexico where his family can, now, live halfway decent. Why do you think so many mexicans live in one house? Its because they are not wasteful like most US citizens are. You want to see the definition of carpool? Watch a mexican pull into a parking lot and see how many of them get out. They know how to use their resources wisely. We as americans have been raised to be wasteful, lazy ( unless we get the right price to work hard), and down right full of ourselves. We think the French are arrogant? Sometimes I want to tell SOME americans to look in the da%# mirror!
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Postby rmh » Thu May 22, 2008 3:25 pm

Go to some of the back country villages in Old Mexico. The people that have shoes have someone in the US working, legal or not. Which is something that has happened with all immigrant groups. Mine were starved to the colonies and, later, the new US.
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Postby brushcutter » Thu May 22, 2008 3:46 pm

I understand your points, they make for a good argument. But I have two questions: How can they be law-biding and illegal at the same time? What about the percentage of those who earn money here and send it back to Mexico? Besides those other immigrants throughout history sought to become citizens. Hey, if I was there, I would want to come here too! I make too much to qualify for any type of assistance, but don't make enough too put away for retirement properly :no: I guess I'll have to rely on my hunting skills :lol:
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Postby rmh » Thu May 22, 2008 4:30 pm

Just to throw this out on "taking American jobs". The big tourist draw here is Ocean City. The businesses there employ thousands in the summer. Several years ago they started bringing kids (late teens, early twenties) over from what was the Eastern Bloc (E. Ger., Poland, the Ukraine, etc.). The reason: they couldn't get enough US kids to come to the beach for the summer to work, they all wanted to be life guards, or just hang out. There's one Italian restaurant that has had pretty much the same wait staff for the last couple years, all Russian. Those are, by the way, legal work visas. Even the crab picking and oyster shucking houses here get foreign labor now. That job used to be hereditary on the Eastern Shore.
Yard work in this area now is almost all adults, no kids. Even newspaper delivery, my kids are about the only ones that have had a paper route.
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Postby gangrig25 » Thu May 22, 2008 9:32 pm

captainduckhead wrote:
Preacher1011 wrote:Here is my problem with illegal immigration on the side of Mexicans. They will come from our country and take from it and not accept our values and our customs. Instead they impose their values and customs onto us Americans. Don't believe me? Look at California. There are a few instances where Mexicans have flown their flag over ours. That's what gets me. Not that they are illegal or they don't try, but they refuse to accept American culture. Not to mention they are forming new gangs every single day, but that's another "controversial issue."

Bravo Preacher! You just redeemed yourself 100% for that abortion malarcky.
That's the exact problem I have with immigration. Back when Ellis Island was in operation, we NEEDED the people, and they NEEDED us. Immigrants from Italy, Holland, Ireland, England, Mexico, China, Japan, all had a dream. The dream was to come to America and become AMERICAN. People would pass through the gates at Ellis Island and literally kiss the ground out of thankfulness. They worked hard to SHED their ethnic cultural differences and BLEND in and become AMERICAN. During WWII, How many thousands of Japanese American solderiers, marched proudly, fought bravely, and died gloriously in the name of the Red, White, and Blue? They wouldn't have dreamed of flying their home countries flag benieth the American flag just to show their heritage, They LOVED AMERICA. and anyone who doesn't LOVE America can get the hell out, and go straight back to where they came from. Thes Chicano gangbangers, with the mexican flag, or those Heroin shooting raft riders down in florida with the Cuban flag on their dashboard. They aren't Americans and do not deserve the rights that my Grandfathers fought to provide them with, so to hell with them all.


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Postby dudejcb » Sat May 24, 2008 9:36 am

captainduckhead wrote:
Preacher1011 wrote:Here is my problem with illegal immigration on the side of Mexicans. They will come from our country and take from it and not accept our values and our customs. Instead they impose their values and customs onto us Americans. Don't believe me? Look at California. There are a few instances where Mexicans have flown their flag over ours. That's what gets me. Not that they are illegal or they don't try, but they refuse to accept American culture. Not to mention they are forming new gangs every single day, but that's another "controversial issue."

Bravo Preacher! You just redeemed yourself 100% for that abortion malarcky.
That's the exact problem I have with immigration. Back when Ellis Island was in operation, we NEEDED the people, and they NEEDED us. Immigrants from Italy, Holland, Ireland, England, Mexico, China, Japan, all had a dream. The dream was to come to America and become AMERICAN. People would pass through the gates at Ellis Island and literally kiss the ground out of thankfulness. They worked hard to SHED their ethnic cultural differences and BLEND in and become AMERICAN. During WWII, How many thousands of Japanese American solderiers, marched proudly, fought bravely, and died gloriously in the name of the Red, White, and Blue? They wouldn't have dreamed of flying their home countries flag benieth the American flag just to show their heritage, They LOVED AMERICA. and anyone who doesn't LOVE America can get the hell out, and go straight back to where they came from. Thes Chicano gangbangers, with the mexican flag, or those Heroin shooting raft riders down in florida with the Cuban flag on their dashboard. They aren't Americans and do not deserve the rights that my Grandfathers fought to provide them with, so to hell with them all.
CDH you alwasy crack me up. Tis is an intersting thread cuz I agree with almost everyone.

I don't get why we cannot make it possible for illegals to come here legally. I think the mojority are hard working and looking for a better life... but what is it that make the illegal entry route the preferred choice over the legal route. Does it take too long, cost too much?

Also, most immigrants in the past did blend in as "Americans" but they still held on to their heritage to a degree. (tho only ones who don't all that much are the Germans (I'm part German) due to their shame over WW1 and WW2. Or at least taht's why my gramps celbrated his Irish side and ignored his German side... his brother was killed in WW1... fighting on our side BTW.)

Norwegians, Pols, Swiss, etc. still do some stuff to commemorate their heritage... get dressed up in their funny clothes and dance around eating fish preserved in lye! so I don't mind the Hispanics doing some of that... but I would prefer it if they (those that do this) dropped the La Raza attitude and the notion of taking back California and texas... although I might be willing to let texas go.

now that I think about it... why do we have texas? we've already used up most of their oil, isn't time we let 'em go? kinda like catch & release.
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Postby Preacher1011 » Sat May 24, 2008 9:42 am

I'd rather give them back California. What good is it? I'm not saying you're a left wing liberal dude, you're more of a right wing liberal. I'm sure you'd agree that CA is too liberal for even you. Look at all the lead bans/ ammo bans/ gun restrictions they have. Texas is the opposite. Let's keep TX and let CA go.
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Postby dudejcb » Sat May 24, 2008 2:45 pm

Preacher1011 wrote:I'd rather give them back California. What good is it? I'm not saying you're a left wing liberal dude, you're more of a right wing liberal. I'm sure you'd agree that CA is too liberal for even you. Look at all the lead bans/ ammo bans/ gun restrictions they have. Texas is the opposite. Let's keep TX and let CA go.


I lived in California for 18 years. I finished high school there and later finsihed college there. It has some pretty cool places I'd like to keep: the Sierras, Yosemite, etc. The duck hunting in the San Joaquin Valley, central California, up by Tule Lake and Alturas is pretty darn good.

I suppose texas has some nice spots too, but they're so damn loud and arrogant... just grind me the wrong way.

California seems more liberal than it really is. Recall that Ronald Reagan was governor there in the '70's. I remember in high school going to some parties on private property where the parents were wealthy (up in the hills with no nearby neighbors), and there was a band playing and some beer... maybe even some pot but I can't remember. Anyway, it was apretty tame scene. just a bunch of middle class white kids having a party before they all left for college. next thing you know there were choppers in the air with spot lights. then about 300 sheriff's deputies appeared in full riot gear, marching abreast towards the party. They swept through a bunch a kids on a Friday night (about 10 pm) using billy clubs at will. arresting all those that weren't quick enough to get the hell out of there. (this is where my woodsy skills came in handy. those Cali kids don't really know how go cross country in the dark, and sticking to the road was a bad idea cuz the cops had it cut off so I led my girlfriend by the hand through the woods and down the mountain.) It was pretty disgusting and NOT VERY LIBERAL.
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