Gitmo

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Gitmo

Postby bluewing77 » Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:03 am

whats the opinion on "Indefinite Detention" for the "enemy combatants" held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba?


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Postby SpinnerMan » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:25 pm

I'm definitely against indefinite detention. Why haven't most of them been executed already?

No more capture of enemy combatants. Kill 'em on the spot. It ain't worth the trouble to try and capture them. We can't make them talk and how can you prove beyond a shadow of a doubt using admissible evidence that they even did anything wrong.

Shoot them on sight. It's the only thing that makes any sense. That will eliminate the problems and won't result in any harsh interrogation or any other human rights issues.
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Postby don taylor » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:31 pm

I agree. since we don't torture anymore and now we won't even waterboard someone, what's the point? To capture them to ask nicely if they will tell us all they know? They tie the soldiers hands and then they tie our prosecutors hands. They should be sterilized.
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Postby bluewing77 » Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:43 pm

Shoot them on sight. It's the only thing that makes any sense. That will eliminate the problems and won't result in any harsh interrogation or any other human rights issues.


that would solve it. why worry about transporting, housing, guarding these people? i also think we're wasting our time detaining terrorists.
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Postby captainduckhead » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:58 pm

Agreed, If we can't torture them for information, then what's the point, One shot behind the ear, and our worries are over. Either that or keep our ultra liberal media away from the situation and let the torturing and beatings continue.
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Postby Montanafowler » Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:00 pm

are you guys seriously approving torture!? They may be terrorists, but they are people just like us.
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Postby dudejcb » Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:11 pm

I think spinnerman has identified the cleanest alternative... for us anyway. If the victim happened to be innocent it's not so clean.

Indefinate incarceration without habeas ain't right. So have trials, and then do what's appropriate for the verdict ... life in jail, death, or freedom.
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Postby SpinnerMan » Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:16 pm

It depends on your definition of torture.

Waterboarding, loud music, sleep deprivation, ... You bet.

Chopping of body parts, burning, electricution, ... Only under the most incredible of circumstances, but if I believed it were a case of imminent life or death, then you can be damn sure I support any means that might work.

Where's the line? That's a good question. My general philosophy is that anything we do to train our elite troops to prepare them is acceptable.

Any gratuitous mistreatment of the enemy is criminal, such as the Abu Graib nonsense.

They are not people like us. This is war. You do not treat the enemy like your neighbor. I'm assuming you don't drop bombs on your neighbor or shoot at him when you see him. I think way too many people in this country have forgot what war means. That's why there is so much buyer's remorse. When Bush said we were going to war, people thought high altitude bombing of an enemy that wouldn't fight back.
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Postby Montanafowler » Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:18 pm

personally, i would shoot my neighbor.
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Postby dudejcb » Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:21 pm

No torture of any kind. it might make people talk but doesn't provide reliable results. By doing it, we condone it and should expect them to torture our captured soldiers.

They may do this anyway, but it disgusts the rest of the world to our bnefit. When we do it it disgusts the rest of the world to our harm.
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Postby Preacher1011 » Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:22 pm

I'm with SpinnerMan on this one. Do to them what we do to our own in training. In the SERE training we torture our OWN men, yes we are talking Americans here. They can do everything exept kill them or break major bones. If we do this to our own, you can sure bet that we can do it to them too.

Or we could just shoot them and get it over with.
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Postby don taylor » Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:18 pm

No torture of any kind dude?

You have the SOB who just kidnapped your son, he won't tell you where he is. How long until until you start pulling out fingernails? How long before you stop asking nicely and start acting like any father would? LOTS of people feel the same way about America. I myself served my country and would have no problem extracting information from a enemy combatant. The people who have made there way into a interrogation room with the USA's finest are not there because of random sweeps of civilians walking down the street, These are people that are caught trying to kill American soldiers and you think some may be innocent? You want to give them trials here? Great, first let's put them on trial for the attempted murder of US soldiers, Punishable by death. America has just enough candy ass fags to keep us from winning this war and coming home.

Your a confusing guy dude. I can tell you aren't native Idaho stock. How do you get Ultra Liberal on some of these issues? We get a common theme through a dozen guys and you post. You always take the liberal route on these issues. I just don't understand why. You have to be hiding a degree from Berkley or some other extremist school. What gives?
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Postby dudejcb » Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:52 pm

don taylor wrote:No torture of any kind dude?

You have the SOB who just kidnapped your son, he won't tell you where he is. How long until until you start pulling out fingernails? How long before you stop asking nicely and start acting like any father would? LOTS of people feel the same way about America. I myself served my country and would have no problem extracting information from a enemy combatant. The people who have made there way into a interrogation room with the USA's finest are not there because of random sweeps of civilians walking down the street, These are people that are caught trying to kill American soldiers and you think some may be innocent? You want to give them trials here? Great, first let's put them on trial for the attempted murder of US soldiers, Punishable by death. America has just enough candy ass fags to keep us from winning this war and coming home.

Your a confusing guy dude. I can tell you aren't native Idaho stock. How do you get Ultra Liberal on some of these issues? We get a common theme through a dozen guys and you post. You always take the liberal route on these issues. I just don't understand why. You have to be hiding a degree from Berkley or some other extremist school. What gives?

Okay Don. If you want to get down and dirty, fine. I take the liberal slant because it's too easy to just jump on the bandwagon and get with the mob non-thinking mentality. It's cheap. It's easy, And it doesn't require much thought. Additioanlly, few others opn DHC have the balls, or the cogent arguments, to present an even half vast alternative view. So I take it upon myself to try and get you to listen the the better angels of your nature.

Most of the guys who agree with me (even a little) don't bother posting. I get their PM's of support though. they figure, probably accurately, that you all are lost cause and not worth the aggravation. They are probably right, but I reach out anyway. Hope does spring eternal. So let's get to it.

If I knew for an absolute fact I had the guy who kidanpped my son I would probably pull his finger nails out. In fact my older brother and I were kidanpped once, but we escaped, and wer albe to put one guyy in jail becasue I knew who he was. i also knew hiw hlpers (they all had prison records and pictures) but they never got caught.

However, the question for us is, do we really know have the right guys. In several instances we have been bamboozled by Afghani's and Iraqi's where they captured and turned in their long time enemies (or even just anyone who was handy) and then portrayed them to us as bad guys, so we would rid them of their competition, or so they could get a reward. The devil is in the details and frankly we, often as not, don't really know squat! Have you heard of, or noticed, that several of the JAG prosecutors are now on the isde of the defense because we have cooked the evidence, or abridged our basic system of justice to the point they can no longer stand by silently.

The Isreali's don't use torture because the results it delivers are unreliable. There are better techniques, that don't sully our reputation and put our own troops at risk simply becasue we lowered our humanity standards bar.

Some of those we have captured ourselves probably are guilty. Some that have been handed over are proabably guilty as well. maybe some are not. who can say, we don't have the information nat our disposal so cannot make an inormed judegement, It has to be taken on faith. Our government (the Bush boys) won't share the intel saying it's cloaked in national security. Yeah, maybe it is, but there shouyld be people who can know without it becoming public knowlege, but they refuse to let anyone see it so it can be evaluated by anyone other than themselves. So, don't you see the slippery slope that comes with trying people in secret with secret evidence that cannot be vetted? If that becomes the standard then I will be the one they pick up next and sent to trial for giving the hard arse DHC guys an alternative point of view.

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BTW: I attende the University of Wisconsin as a biology major for one year, and later graduted forn Cal Poly, Pomona with a degree is civil engineering. I was taught to think freely and for myself by my parents, who later lamented that I (and my borthers and sisters) thought more freely than they wanted... They were Nixon Repuclicans until Watergate. The they hedged their bets cuz neither side was ll that reliable in the long term.
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Postby Redline29 » Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:58 pm

dudejcb wrote:Indefinate incarceration without habeas ain't right


They don't have that...how dumb can people be?...damnit this is not rocket science.
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Postby don taylor » Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:51 am

I don't think this country is in the business of randomly torturing people on hearsay, Sooo....

My point is that no torture of any kind means the OPTION is off the table. The choice is gone. If we need to we can't. Your for choices , right? Like several other social issues. You are a PRO CHOICE kinda guy.

I have a Reagan mentality about this. Deal from a position of strength. Let's start to torture ALL we capture. Now we give them 3 squares a day, a warm bed, and everything else they need. I think the numbers of captured will go down, Overall terrorist numbers would drop, and the enemy kills will go up. Fear is a powerful tool my friend, In this war, and I don't mean Iraq, I mean the real war on terror, Why would you have us not have this at our disposal?
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Postby wackemstackem » Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:17 am

You cant put a combatant on trial that has been tortured.Habius corpus should not apply to terrorists.If you execute them you make martyrs out of them.
Americanize them,have hooter girls bring them dinner.400 channels of cable.Take away the koran and give them the remote.Apple pie,hamburgers.High quality call girls.Those guys will be saying the pledge of allegiance within a year,if not make em dissapear.
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Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:24 am

dudejcb wrote:No torture of any kind.
If that isn't the easy bandwagon mob non-thinking mentality, I don't know what is. What is torture? People don't even agree on that. Could you define what is and what is not torture? Or from your description of why we don't torture, I guess we need to ask the Europeans what the definition is so they don't get mad at us. I'm assuming some of these definitions have changed a bit since the 1940's. At least in Germany. We're burdened with our guilt from prior to the mid 1800's and things done in states where most of us do not live, but we are going to appeal to the higher moral authority of the ancestors of Hitler, Mussolini, ... :rofl:

dudejcb wrote:it might make people talk but doesn't provide reliable results.
That's just plain stupid. What information do you get from any enemy combatant that is reliable? I'm sure if we are as sweet as apple pie, they never lie to us. But make them fear for their lives, deprive them of sleep, and otherwise completely disorient them and then they are clear headed enough to not give away information that they did not intend.

These guys doing the interrogations are professionals. They know what works and what does not. They know what they are doing. They do NOT randomly torture people. They are the ones that personally interact with the enemy and have to make the determination about whether or not the carrot or the stick is going to work with this particular guy. If the carrot doesn't work, then get out the big ass whoopin' stick. Maybe that won't work either. Nothings perfect.

It is an absolute lie to say that we have not learned valuable information from harsh interrogation, torture, or whatever you want to call it.
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Postby captainduckhead » Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:48 am

idahofowler wrote:are you guys seriously approving torture!? They may be terrorists, but they are people just like us.


Apparently you were no where near NY City on September 11, 2001? ...I was, yes I approve of torturing terrorists to get information. They may be terrorists but they are people just like us? HA, these "people" are animals, with very little regard for life, even their own. In WWII our MEN tortured and abused POW's in order to gain information, it wasn't pretty, but it happened. By the way, according to all records we ended up the victors in that particular war. The media, and the American people weren't standing by and watching over the shoulder of our fighting troops, criticizing every move they made and screaming about civil liberty infringements at every questionable action.
The soldiers that fought during the WWII era, had the balls to do what needed to be done, unpleasent as it was, it needed to be done for the greater good. Our nation is now full of pansies, and we have to worry about the feelings and civil rights of our enemies. That's why todays troops are fighting an uphill battle.
What about the civil liberties of the CIVILIAN wives, CIVILIAN kids, and CIVILIAN parents that lost a family member on that day?
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Postby dudejcb » Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:34 am

wackemstackem wrote:You cant put a combatant on trial that has been tortured.Habius corpus should not apply to terrorists.If you execute them you make martyrs out of them.
Americanize them,have hooter girls bring them dinner.400 channels of cable.Take away the koran and give them the remote.Apple pie,hamburgers.High quality call girls.Those guys will be saying the pledge of allegiance within a year,if not make em dissapear.


hilarious and probably true. it happened with the German POWs that came over here.
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Postby dudejcb » Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:38 am

SpinnerMan wrote:
dudejcb wrote:No torture of any kind.
If that isn't the easy bandwagon mob non-thinking mentality, I don't know what is. What is torture? People don't even agree on that. Could you define what is and what is not torture? Or from your description of why we don't torture, I guess we need to ask the Europeans what the definition is so they don't get mad at us. I'm assuming some of these definitions have changed a bit since the 1940's. At least in Germany. We're burdened with our guilt from prior to the mid 1800's and things done in states where most of us do not live, but we are going to appeal to the higher moral authority of the ancestors of Hitler, Mussolini, ... :rofl:

dudejcb wrote:it might make people talk but doesn't provide reliable results.
That's just plain stupid. What information do you get from any enemy combatant that is reliable? I'm sure if we are as sweet as apple pie, they never lie to us. But make them fear for their lives, deprive them of sleep, and otherwise completely disorient them and then they are clear headed enough to not give away information that they did not intend.

These guys doing the interrogations are professionals. They know what works and what does not. They know what they are doing. They do NOT randomly torture people. They are the ones that personally interact with the enemy and have to make the determination about whether or not the carrot or the stick is going to work with this particular guy. If the carrot doesn't work, then get out the big ass whoopin' stick. Maybe that won't work either. Nothings perfect.

It is an absolute lie to say that we have not learned valuable information from harsh interrogation, torture, or whatever you want to call it.


Are you talking about the Abu Garaib professiona interrorgators? The Israili's, who have dealth with terrorism for a long tiime, are the ones who say it's an unreliable technique. so do most FBI people that I've heard interviewed... maybe they're not professional enough yet.

A bandwagon mentality? spare me the "turn the table" BS.
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Postby LIGHT12 » Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:21 am

[img]Are you talking about the Abu Garaib professiona interrorgators? The Israili's, who have dealth with terrorism for a long tiime, are the ones who say it's an unreliable technique. so do most FBI people that I've heard interviewed... maybe they're not professional enough yet.

A bandwagon mentality? spare me the "turn the table" BS[/img]


Abu Garaib was not torture. It was not professional either. What do you really know about the Isrieali's and wha they do. They are the ultimate in smoke screen artist.
ANd did you ever stop to think there are professionals on both sides of ever story. I look at it like I look at the guy at work who compains about everything, trying to suck up to the boss. Does do squat, but he is the greasy wheel so he gets the attention. That or they have their own agenda.

If you want to know what torture is, pick up the book Fly boys, i'm tired can't remember the author, same guy that did Flags of our Fathers.

People don't have the spine they did back then in this country, thats what is wrong with us today. We would lose WWII if it had happened with the mentality of the people in this country today.
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Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:23 am

The Abu Graib people were not interrogators. You didn't know that. I thought everybody except the most uniformed idiots knew that they were not interrogators.

Also, several posts up I already said that any gratuitous mistreatment of the enemy is criminal, such as the Abu Graib nonsense.

Many of our military and CIA interrogators say that is a useful technique. Why do you always choose to take the word of foreigners over Americans?

Why would any FBI agent be trained in harsh interrogation? They sure as hell better not be doing this. Law enforcement has no right to torture.

They have gotten actual useful information using these techniques. That proves that it does work. We got information. We acted on the information. We were successful. Still unreliable :no:

All interrogation techniques are not 100% reliable. Therefore, I guess they are all unreliable and we should not waste our time with any unreliable technique. They are unreliable because a big shocker. The enemy lies. Do you think our interrogators didn't know this?

You still haven't ventured a definition of torture. I gave a very specific line between what I would consider torture (use under only the most extreme of conditions) and aggressive techniques or whatever you want to call it that can be used at the discretion of the authorized interrogators.

Your line appears to be whatever somebody in Europe decides because we all know they have a much higher moral authority than we do.

You are spewing a meaningless bumper sticker slogan "No torture of any kind." but it's not a mindless bandwagon position. Yeah, right. Get off your moral high horse and tell us what is torture and what isn't and then maybe there is something behind it other than just another meaningless "progressive" feel good slogan.
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Postby dudejcb » Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:49 pm

Spinner,

you really should not accuse anyone of "spewing" anything as you are not guilt free in that regard. Your spews just tend to be of the other ilk.

you asked for a definition of torture. i googled it and found many out there, but they all pretty much echo one another. they also cite Abu garaib as an example. Care to read?

http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/11/TortureQandA.htm

If you don't ;ike this just google it yourself and browse the many similar entries, along with the internationa laws to which the US is a signatory, and why torture is bad... not only for us, but because it doesn't yield reliable results sufficient to to disgard our long held moral standards.
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Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:43 pm

The conduct at Abu Graib was CRIMINAL. Some of them are still in jail. What does that have to do with this discussion at all? Some of our troops have committed murder as well. Does that mean we should stop shooting the enemy on the battlefield?

So I take it you actually have no opinion on what is and is not torture? Blindfolding, extended sleeplessness, waterboarding, ... are these torture?

Human Rights Watch is against all of it. I'd like to see them fight and win a war.

From your link.

None of the reported allegations suggest the United States has utilized such horrific techniques as electric shock or burning. They do, however, suggest that the United States has been willing to inflict other forms of physical or mental pain in an effort to obtain intelligence from captured terrorist suspects.

That is exactly what I support. I take it you are opposed to this and accept the HRW definition when you say no torture.

dudejcb wrote:Your spews just tend to be of the other ilk.
I think we are finally making progress. You have finally admitted your side is ilk.
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Postby dudejcb » Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:46 pm

I think waterboarding fits the torture def'n ilk.
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