Evolution vs. Intelligent Design vs. Creationism

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Postby dudejcb » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:35 am

To a ceratin degree I agree with you L12. I think lot's of "educated people are degreed nitwits. It's liek they didn't develop a sense of themselves before they went to school and earned their degrees. so they rely on ther degree to define themselves and present themselves in terms of their degrees rather than as a person (say a duck hunter/fisherman) that also went to school and learned some other things as well. And, many of them mistakenly think that everything they learn is absolutely correct, when in fact, much is not... it's just a snapshot in time... and undertanding evolves as more evidence emerges.

So an intelligent person is preferable to an educated person... but they are not necissarily mutually exclusive. My mom did not have a degree, but was very intelligent, and could converse on a par with anyone on almost any subject.
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Postby huntingdude16 » Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:08 pm

So what your saying is....

The higher the education you get, the less intelligent you are. Wow. :huh:

Yes, there are 'smart dumb people'. But are you REALLY going to use this as an excuse for the obvious one-way overall trend?
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Postby LIGHT12 » Wed Jun 18, 2008 9:49 pm

No, what i am saying is people who think they are smart, and act like it, and purposely come acrosse as that way are simply arrogent, and lack a lot.
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Postby dudejcb » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:45 am

jeez Louize... all I did was use the term "hubris." Shoot me!

BTW: as long as I'm being arrogant and showing everyone how much I know... (cuz it makes me feel good about myself, if not superior) there are three ways to use the phonetically identiacl sound "to" and three different meanings. First, obviously is the number two (2) (and we all get that right? Am I coming off condescendingly enough cuz that's ehat I'm all about?). another 2 sound is the oft used conjunction... "to." and the third is the plural form "too" as in I want to go too. or I did that too. It's incorrect to say "I did that to" as it implies did what to to whom or to what, as opposed to communicating that we both did the same thing... too.

That's done and now I really feel as though I've strutted my command of written communcation. I feel my IQ surging (where have I heard that term before?). And I'm not even and English major!
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Postby Montanafowler » Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:07 pm

dudejcb wrote:I feel my IQ surging (where have I heard that term before?).


Don Taylor, or maybe it was wackemstackem :yes:
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Postby dudejcb » Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:37 pm

nah. It was **** Cheney.
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Postby huntingdude16 » Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:14 pm

No, what i am saying is people who think they are smart, and act like it, and purposely come acrosse as that way are simply arrogent, and lack a lot.

And this, obviously not being everyone and in fact is the minority, is the cause for this trend? :huh:

All it is saying is that, the higher the education the young people recieved, the fewer that conluded their is a God.

Do you think that it may just be possible that they are thinking for themselves?
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Postby Redline29 » Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:53 pm

huntingdude16 wrote:Do you think that it may just be possible that they are thinking for themselves?


Or maybe somebody telling them that they will look smarter if they say don't beleive in God. Never the underestimate the stupidity of liberals in large numbers or those who teach them.
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Postby goldhunter470 » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:26 pm

Redline29 wrote:
huntingdude16 wrote:Do you think that it may just be possible that they are thinking for themselves?


Or maybe somebody telling them that they will look smarter if they say don't beleive in God. Never the underestimate the stupidity of liberals in large numbers or those who teach them.


Are you insinuating that people that believe in God aren't brainwashed into thinking that if they don't believe they will go to hell? I've seen quite a few times in this thread that "if I'm wrong, we're just dead, if you're wrong you're going to hell." That's a great reason to believe!!!!! Scare the hell out of em!!!
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Postby LIGHT12 » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:39 am

In think you can insinuate anything you want. I had the majority of professors convince me of many things that once i got in the real world i discovered were crap. Who is doing the brainwashing, and who is not. Some of us believe that there is I higher being and a standard of living that should be abided by. That there is a greater power that put us here. That has said thou shalt not. Its not an easy choice to make.

I wandered from my faith, and am in a spiritual challange daily because it is not a simple brainwashing. It is far easier to believe in nothing than to believe in a creator. And it is far harder to believe in a creator and live the life he has demanded than to simply say I believe. If it was simple brainwashing it wouldn't be so hard. Trust me I've straddled this fence for a long time. And am now learning a lot more about myself and life because I am choosing the harder route.

Believe what you want, but I had a professor tell me he knew some of his fellow professors wanted to meld the minds of students to his beliefs. He was the head of the Poli Sci department shortly after I graduated. Go figure, political professors trying to force feed their beliefs. Aleast he was a liberal and admitted it. And told people ahead of time some would not believe the same as he did. And would debate anyone.
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Postby don taylor » Fri Jun 20, 2008 4:38 am

LIGHT12 wrote:In think you can insinuate anything you want. I had the majority of professors convince me of many things that once i got in the real world i discovered were crap. Who is doing the brainwashing, and who is not. Some of us believe that there is I higher being and a standard of living that should be abided by. That there is a greater power that put us here. That has said thou shalt not. Its not an easy choice to make.

I wandered from my faith, and am in a spiritual challange daily because it is not a simple brainwashing. It is far easier to believe in nothing than to believe in a creator. And it is far harder to believe in a creator and live the life he has demanded than to simply say I believe. If it was simple brainwashing it wouldn't be so hard. Trust me I've straddled this fence for a long time. And am now learning a lot more about myself and life because I am choosing the harder route.

Believe what you want, but I had a professor tell me he knew some of his fellow professors wanted to meld the minds of students to his beliefs. He was the head of the Poli Sci department shortly after I graduated. Go figure, political professors trying to force feed their beliefs. Aleast he was a liberal and admitted it. And told people ahead of time some would not believe the same as he did. And would debate anyone.


Excellent post. I feel very much the same as you do in your faith. I lost the ability to see God around me for a while. I'm also to intelligent not to question my belief in God. You have to be able to have faith. If I was brainwashed I wouldn't have all these questions and no answers. To much cannot be explained on each side to draw conclusions. That's why its called faith. Faith is what gets me through sometimes.
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Postby dudejcb » Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:36 am

I do not disagree iwth what Don and L12 have said here for themost part. I believe in God and spirituality, but tend to question religions.

I have fith that no matter how badly things may be going, I still have a moral compass within me for guidance and can only control or decide for myself; I bleive the universe may not be fair, some folks may not burn in hellfire; maybe they will, dunno. but in practical terms, does it really matter. People who do the really bad stuff don't seem to be influenced by the threat of an angry diety.

Inever felt brainwashed in college, in church, or anywhere else. that said, there were times when I got the impression some may have been trying to "brainwash" me (although that is not an accurate word to use; it was more like they were trying to convince me to their way of thinking, not "brainwash.") I thought about what they said and decided for myself whether the notion held water or not. and if not, I discarded it. If I agreed I incorporated it into my thinking until such time as I learned more or learned otherwise.

Now back to what you are talking about. clearly there are some religions who rely on brainwashing their minions... Mormons come to mind as do radical Islam, or and radical or very narrowly defined religious dogma.
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Postby huntingdude16 » Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:41 am

Redline29 wrote:
huntingdude16 wrote:Do you think that it may just be possible that they are thinking for themselves?


Or maybe somebody telling them that they will look smarter if they say don't beleive in God.

It sounds like that is what you want to be true.



It seems there are two arguements for the reason of this trend....

1. all teachers and profesors are brainwashing their students to not believe in a God

2. their thinking for themselves


Golly gee willikers, how ever will I decide? :no: :rolleyes:
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Postby dudejcb » Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:46 am

Huntin dude... right on. I'll go with number 2 to block! (Hollywood Squares reference)

an observation:

it seems to appear as though, possibly, maybe, (is this using too many qualifyers?) that many of those who are willing to accept ideas or information based on blind faith (whether religious or political) are the ones most fearful of brainwashing. Hmmm.

Ironic no?
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Postby cannon » Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:25 am

I have degrees from 3 universities, so I can say this with a fair amount of experience: 1) I HAVE A LOT OF WALLPAPER, and 2) Professors tend to be eggheads who focus on the most impressionable and least defensive students in their classes, because those are the students who will embrace their political and/or religious ideals without a great deal of resistance. As for those of us who are a bit more hard-headed, they tend to dismiss us as stubborn or simply stupid. My experience is that most professors are so engulfed in academia that there would exist no hope for gainful employment at a real job, and most of my professors at the post-graduate level had never held a job other than as a professor.

If you don't believe that there is a bias towards atheism among college professors, you haven't spent much time around major universities. As for the practical application of their political and spiritual ideals, I have found them to be as or more useless as those of your local convenience store clerk. One's level of education is not a fair barometer of his or her intelligence. Some of the most knowledgeable and intelligent individuals I know have nothing more than a high school education, and I often seek their advice.

College professors do attempt to brainwash their students. So do some religious sects. So does the media. So do the heads of many families. Its the nature of things, so its incumbent upon families to teach their children at home. Waiting for them to get out and make up their own minds means that someone else will do it for you. To say that ones children are not influenced by those things is both arrogant and silly.
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Postby dudejcb » Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:02 am

Okay, I'll play.

cannon wrote:I have degrees from 3 universities, so I can say this with a fair amount of experience: 1) I HAVE A LOT OF WALLPAPER, and 2) Professors tend to be eggheads who focus on the most impressionable and least defensive students in their classes, because those are the students who will embrace their political and/or religious ideals without a great deal of resistance. As for those of us who are a bit more hard-headed, they tend to dismiss us as stubborn or simply stupid.
degrees in what? from which university? I need more resume material here (and possibly some personal references), cuz while I kind of agree with a couple of your points--sort of--they are not (to my way of thinking) righton target, and some others are way off. So please, give it up tripod... more cowbell!

cannon wrote: My experience is that most professors are so engulfed in academia that there would exist no hope for gainful employment at a real job, and most of my professors at the post-graduate level had never held a job other than as a professor.
It stands to reason that professors would, if not should, be somewhat engulfed in academia and the universe of academic thought and critical analysis... that's the job description.

Not sure where you went to school, but at the three institutions I attended, almost all my professors (if not all) had had other jobs with real world experience or had another job while they were teaching. (If you wish I can provide the details if you question the voracity of my assertion.) That said, there were some of what I might characterize as professors in the "soft" disciplines that were less real world than letters and sciences guys.

I had a couple of buds at the Univeristy of Wisonsin Madison who I took some pre-med classes with as freshman. During a cram session they told me about this goofy class they were taking just for grins and the lame credit. they invited me to attend one of the "Black Music Appreciation" sessions and I found it (along with them) quite amusing and relaxing. but even in that sort of exotic academic pursuit, there didn't seem to be any paticular brainwashing underway. It was more like high level trivial pursuit, and not very threatening. but now, come to think of it... when I knew a little more about how jass and blues moved up the mississippi and to northern towns and morphed... I DID START TO APPRECIATE what was behind the music.

OHMYGOD!!!!! I'VE BEEN BRAINWASHED!!!!


cannon wrote:If you don't believe that there is a bias towards atheism among college professors, you haven't spent much time around major universities. As for the practical application of their political and spiritual ideals, I have found them to be as or more useless as those of your local convenience store clerk..
If you equate bias toward atheism with pursuit of science and understanding, then I suppose I get your point, but I don't agree with that assertion.

Have you seen the program "How Life Began" that is currently being aired on either Discovery or History channel. Two or three of the scientific experts the program relies upon to explain the primirive chemical and metobolic processes are Catholic Fraters, who don't seem to believe that understanding science (how nature and God work) is NOT an atheistic proposition. It seems as though as they get further into the research the same root question always remains in play and feeds their faith... not so much the how life happens, but the why it (the how) happens so much... especially when the how (formation of protiens, etc.) is so possible yet fraught with incredible odds in order for them to actually do anyting beyond simply fomring. something else is at play, and remains magical (or not understood) that we don't quite get, that lies behind the incredible success of life in this dicy world.

cannon wrote: One's level of education is not a fair barometer of his or her intelligence. Some of the most knowledgeable and intelligent individuals I know have nothing more than a high school education, and I often seek their advice..
Quite right, but I would add that getting a degree (and the more rigorous the discipline the more so) is a relativley good barometer of one's persistence.

the degree (depending on the discipline or the subject matter) is supposed to provide some tools to develop critical thinking and application of analyticial thought to either convert proposed notions and facts into concrete realities, or shed them to weak and/or baseless drivel that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. to fully develop this skill one needs ideas that pass and fail the screening, so it's somewhat the job of professors to provide some of the losing ideas as well as some of the winners. (This is my long-winded way of saying that even those professors you scorn provide some value should a particualr student have the native intelligence to recongins the good from the useless.)

If you accept anything anyone tells you at face value, without doing your own internal screening process, you are by defintion a gullible fool, with or without a degree. That said, if you're not gullible, but are willing to pay attention and separate the wheat from the chaffe, keeping what's worthwhile--working with it--and discarding the nonesense, then you are not only intelligent, but are also getting smarter. and being exposed to more ideas from which to sort through for gems of knowledge, by way of higher education, is the time tested way of developing intelligence and those who attempt it are often smarter for it. It's a simple probablity issue.

Other smart people however, may go their won way and get their smart gems through being curious and alert: reading, learning from friends, family and coworkers, mentors, etc.. but that is a less systematic approach. Just cuz this works for some does not diminish those who happen to get degrees. there are plenty of nitwits with and without degrees.

cannon wrote:College professors do attempt to brainwash their students. So do some religious sects. So does the media. So do the heads of many families. Its the nature of things, so its incumbent upon families to teach their children at home..
are you equating brainwashing with attempting to convey ideas or facts embedded in a course of study? Or are you suggesting that these are demonic types with overblown and possible sinister agendas. Certainly kids shouild learn at home, but I don't think homeschooling or passing along dogma does them a favor. Developing/supporting curiosity, a good thought process, and instilling moral values (with a solid underlying base of unconditional love) is what parenting and learning at home are about.

cannon wrote: Waiting for them to get out and make up their own minds means that someone else will do it for you. To say that ones children are not influenced by those things is both arrogant and silly.
Teach them what? I would suggest you theach them how to think for themselves and not give them your conclusions so you can make up their minds for them... that is a sure fire way to either get to look in the opposite direction, or create a non-thinker who doesn't adequately question the voracity of what he/she is being force fed.
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Postby cannon » Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:35 am

WOW!!!!!! I wanted to read that. No, really, I wanted to. I just couldn't. I made it through the part where you would need a resume' and that you generally disagree with me and then I quit out of sheer boredom. In answer to your questions, my degrees are in poly-sci, a J.D., and an L.L.M. As for any other questions you may have had, I think I may have missed them. Oh, and fyi, over 70% of my law professors had never held down a job doing anything but being a law professor, which does not lend much in practical advice for a soon-to-be practicing attorney. Defend them all you like. They're still eggheads.

I'm sure by what I read of your post that you know everything there is to about law schools and their professors and how those professors behave in every segment of the country, so feel free to bash away. Seems like you've got all the answers.
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Postby dudejcb » Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:46 am

that explains it. you're a freekin lawyer. no wonder. of course your profs were into brainwashing.... that whole profession is about selling one'sargument isn't it?

some of the biggest idiots I know are lawyers... and the dumbest of them are also politicians!

this totally makes sense now.
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Postby don taylor » Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:20 pm

Dumb lawyers? politicians? Are you not a Obama supporter? :huh: :huh:
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Postby SpinnerMan » Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:52 pm

I got to agree with Dude on this one. It's the poly-sci / law degree that's the problem.

I got even more wallpaper including a B.S. in Nuclear Engineering, M.S. Health Physics, M.S. Nuclear Engineering, and Ph.D. in Nuclear Engineering with a minor in Environmental Engineering. I think they are all in the upstairs closet somewhere. You stumped me with the L.L.M. I had to look that one up.

I took course work in most engineering disciplines along with biology, chemistry, geochemistry, hydrology, some humanities, etc. I've taken courses in most areas. I even have a 0.5 credit in downhill skiing. That comes in real hand in Illinois. Engineering students are far less prone to this stuff. The engineering professors rarely get into their political or religious beliefs or anything outside of the curriculm. Most of the professor I had were pretty good. I had an econ professor that didn't like Reagan. The biology professors were bad and tilted their classes, but tolerable. The rest really were pretty good about sticking to the relevant content.

I had planned on taking some political science classes when I was in graduate school at Georgia Tech. The political science classes required way too much report writing to allow me to take the course load I needed and I didn't get a good feeling from the first couple days I sat in two different classes, so I chose to take other things. However, I was a member of the Environmental Forum, which oddly at a technical school was dominated by poly-sci majors. I went to those meetings and some where the poly-sci professors sponsorred specific forum. What a bunch of mindless idiots. One of the forums the poly-sci professors were actually complaining about Rush Limbaugh. Couldn't figure out how that was relevent :huh: It was all politics and no science.

Dude is an engineer, which makes me wonder how he went so wrong. I think he is just determined to be different. If he went into polysci, he probably would be a raging conservative :wink:

Engineers tend to be the most conservative, whether it's professors or students. Physicists are probably next, with sort of a graded scale through biologists being the most liberal science majors, then you get into soft sciences through humanities and teachers and finally to Artist. There is definitely a strong correlation between politics and their chosen profession. There are liberal engineers (e.g. Dude) and conservative artists (can't think of any, but there are some), but there is a strong trend.

My wife has a B.F.A. (fine arts degree). The art students made communists look like right wingers. I'm sure she went to school with ELF and ALF and other terrorist members. I never brought up the fact that I hunted at any of the parties at her school. Hell, I was scared to say I ate meat. As you all know a sculpture degree makes you an expert on the environment.

I taught a class for a couple years and I had a student from Massachusetts, with pretty stereotypical Mass. views. He complained how he was the only liberal in any of his classes. I told him what did he expect going into engineering in Georgia. He should have taken polysci and it sounds like you should have become an engineer.
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Postby bluewing77 » Sat Jun 28, 2008 1:13 am

SpinnerMan wrote:There is definitely a strong correlation between politics and chosen profession.

my wife is a teacher, she's mild to moderately liberal.

My wife has a B.F.A. (fine arts degree). The art students made communists look like right wingers. I'm sure she went to school with ELF and ALF and other terrorist members. I never brought up the fact that I hunted at any of the parties at her school. Hell, I was scared to say I ate meat. As you all know a sculpture degree makes you an expert on the environment..


i have to agree with your art students and communists comparison.
in college i dated an "art major" and when she found out that i hunted and actually ate those birds i killed, the panties came up mighty quick! :rofl:
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Postby dudejcb » Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:33 am

SpinnerMan wrote:I got to agree with Dude on this one. It's the poly-sci / law degree that's the problem.

Dude is an engineer, which makes me wonder how he went so wrong. I think he is just determined to be different. If he went into polysci, he probably would be a raging conservative :wink:
Spinnerman has unveiled my game... I'm a contrarian! (remember Little Big Man) (when I'm with liberals I often take the way extremem conservative argument just for grins.)

started out pretty conservative fresh out of engineering school... my world was pretty black and white... cut and dried. everything was (or should be) reducable to some sort of mathmatical or scientific reduction to a finite straightforward answer...

over the years however, life has shown me the all the shades of gray in between the easy choices, so have slowly evolved to where I've become a pretty liberal (or at least tolerant) on most stuff...

I onced had a boss who thought I was a little "off" (imagine that) cuz I would offer up these other, less mainstream, takes on issues. when he finally mentioned some of the "off" things I brought up in meetings and wondered out loud about me, I told him... anyone can tow the line and give you the easy bandwagon answers or ideas, and that's what the others (in our managmetn group) do for you... so rather then repeat what we all already know, I on the other hand, try to come up with other POV's just to identify them, and take them into consideration when crafting our strategies, so that we've already covered our arses should those arguments/eventualities arise. Once he saw the method behind the madness of constantly playing devil's advocate, and how it buttressed and improved whatever it was we decided to do, my job apprasial ratings improved dramatically.

Hey Cannon, You do realize I was kind a joking (sort of) about lawyers being some of the dumbest people I know right? Some are, but I have lots of smart lawyer friends. Point is there are excutiatingly dumb people everywhere, in all professions. engineers are not immune, and are some of the worst offenders (err, dumbest) out there. (look at Spinner for crying out loud). :wink:
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Postby huntingdude16 » Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:59 pm

I'm still hearing the same thing I've already heard.

Yes, there ARE some 'smart dumb people' in the population that also can't think for themselves.



But is it really being suggested that this is the cause of the overall decline in believers in the study?
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Postby cannon » Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:09 pm

dudejcb wrote:Hey Cannon, You do realize I was kind a joking (sort of) about lawyers being some of the dumbest people I know right? Some are, but I have lots of smart lawyer friends. Point is there are excutiatingly dumb people everywhere, in all professions. engineers are not immune, and are some of the worst offenders (err, dumbest) out there. (look at Spinner for crying out loud). :wink:


Seriously, bro. You DO understand the nature of what I do for a living, don't you? It ain't that hard to pull my chain, but if you're gonna hurt my feelings, you're gonna have to dig waaaaaay deeper than that. Calling me an idiot, or stupid, or crooked, or an ambulance chaser, or a spineless bottom-feeder just won't do the trick. You can't do this job long without fairly thick skin, and I'll be the first guy to agree that wallpaper is just what I said it is, just wallpaper. The fact that you have the degrees means you're persistent, but not necessarily intelligent.

Trust me, the arguments on this forum are EXACTLY what my 10 year post-graduate academic career were all about, and if I didn't appreciate the opinion of someone who is diametrically opposed to my point of view, I'd stay on the shotgun forum.

No hard feelings, you bitchy egghead engineer.
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Postby jehler » Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:20 pm

cannon wrote:you bitchy egghead engineer.
:rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :rofl: :lol: :hammer: :hammer: :yes: :lol: :rofl: Dude he got you there, that is funny crap
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