Evolution vs. Intelligent Design vs. Creationism

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Postby CLUTCHfan » Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:10 pm

Preacher1011 wrote: At least adaptive evolution like Darwin saw on the island I can't think of. .


Galapagos Islands.
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Postby don taylor » Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:49 pm

Your atheism stretches and gives more than my faith has to.

Eegg's are living and so is sperm. That's not inanimate objects your talking about. I'm sorry for calling you dense, but your bible thing doesn't sit right with me. You, in not so many words, called me dense for believing. Why don't you deserve the same? I know. Because you know I'm wrong.

I don't take the bible literally, but I hardly consider myself christian. I was born and raised Roman Catholic, yet I don't put much stock in the bible for facts.

Let me tell all you athiests out there about a situation I hope you never have to go through.

I hope that when the day comes that you finally find the need for God in your lives, you don't have to worry about God holding a grudge for all your smack you talk.. When you see a person you love clinging to life in front of you, then is not the time you want your prayers to go unanswered. You see and witness the unexplainable miracles everyday. Most of you just don't see them.

The best thing about my side is I get to say." Your daughter is a miracle, a gift from God." and you can't get mad. If you tell me that my child isn't a gift from God, I got a problem.
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Postby Preacher1011 » Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:55 pm

CLUTCHfan wrote:
Preacher1011 wrote: At least adaptive evolution like Darwin saw on the island I can't think of. .


Galapagos Islands.


That's it, thanks CLUTCH.

Jrock, the typos thing was your idea so I thought I'd go ahead and start it off... :biggrin:
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Postby Rat Creek » Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:46 pm

And one day, the blob that formed out of random chance said, if only I had eight legs, eight eyes and could spin a web with two kinds of thread, I could be a spider and eat bugs that will magically form wings and fly into my trap. Yeah, it could happen.

Honestly, if you don’t see God’s hand in everything around us, I just don’t know what to say. Evolution, adaptation and specialization are God’s tools.

Call me a simple minded dope now. :rolleyes:
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Postby bluewing77 » Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:58 pm

don taylor wrote:I don't take the bible literally, but I hardly consider myself christian. yet I don't put much stock in the bible for facts. If you tell me that my child isn't a gift from God, I got a problem.


I agree with you completely. but i do believe that some higher power is out there... i didnt mean for this to turn into a Atheism vs. Believers thread. For the 3rd time, i will say that public school is not the place for faith based instruction. no bible no koran no buddha no jehova no mohammed.
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Postby Preacher1011 » Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:23 pm

Bluewing, I'm curious on your thoughts on this though. If they teach species to species evolution (which scientists now believe is now BS) why don't they at least touch on creation?
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Postby Skyblaster7 » Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:21 am

Preacher1011 wrote:Bluewing, I'm curious on your thoughts on this though. If they teach species to species evolution (which scientists now believe is now BS) why don't they at least touch on creation?


Who says species to species evolution is BS??????
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Postby jrockncash » Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:18 am

Im not sure that all scientists now think now that its BS.
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Postby gsurko » Wed Jun 11, 2008 6:26 am

Honestly, if you don’t see God’s hand in everything around us, I just don’t know what to say. Evolution, adaptation and specialization are God’s tools.

Call me a simple minded dope now. :rolleyes:[/quote]

There it is, the answer.
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Postby don taylor » Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:10 am

bluewing77 wrote:
don taylor wrote:I don't take the bible literally, but I hardly consider myself christian. yet I don't put much stock in the bible for facts. If you tell me that my child isn't a gift from God, I got a problem.


I agree with you completely. but i do believe that some higher power is out there... i didnt mean for this to turn into a Atheism vs. Believers thread. For the 3rd time, i will say that public school is not the place for faith based instruction. no bible no koran no buddha no jehova no mohammed.


School is supposed to be about learning every possible viewpoint and making your own decisions. Do you think more people believe in God or Darwin? My money is on God. If its the predominate way of thinking, It should be explored. The facts that can be disputed should be explored as well. As it stands now, if you only knew what you were taught in school, you would never know you are aligned with the minorities viewpoint.

We have something here in Pittsburgh they call 'Sparkle Season' AKA CHRISTMAS. Same argument. In a effort to shield poor innocent minds from the evils that are Christmas, they forget that 95% identify ourselves as Christians.
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Postby SpinnerMan » Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:15 am

Skyblaster7 wrote:Spinnerman, there's gobs of proof that speciation exists. I think you're miscommunicating what you actually mean? You state that there is no proof of evolution of one species to another species. Well, there is proof. Enlighten me if I'm reading your post wrong.
There are not gobs of proof in a scientific sense. I can't think of any other way that it happened and as I made it clear I believe in God. Just because there is no other scientifically plausible explanation is not proof. There are many, many things that suggest that it did in fact happen that way (DNA, etc.), however, this does not prove it. Thus it remains a theory and will always remain a theory. It is NOT fact, but that doesn't mean it is untrue.

If you look at the macro organisms, it really seems to make sense. However, if you look at the microstructures and say how in the hell did that happen in a serious of incremental successive improvements. Many of these things seem way too complex to have happened in a serious of small successive steps, each of which was an improvement that gave the organism a competitive advantage. It seems implausible, but that doesn't make it untrue.

It's like many issues. It depends on which direction you come at the problem. If you start from a baby and work backwards, you are more prone to be against or at least for severe restrictions on abortion because it is a continuum. If you start at the egg and sperm and work forward, you are far more prone to support abortion even up to the very end of the pregnancy and even less prone to support harsh punishment for the woman that has a post-natal abortion by dumping the kid in a dumpster. If you start at whole animals, it looks one way. If you look at structures, it seems implausible. This is where most arguments breakdown because most people (including very "smart" people) cannot look at a problem from multiple perspectives. The solution MUST work from all perspectives.

God's miracles did not violate any laws of science. It wasn't a miracle of science when the Red Sea parted allowing the Jews to flee Egypt. It was just a miracle that it happened at the right time. However we got from a spec of extraterrestrial debris to human life on Earth while obeying all the laws of science. The miracle was that it all worked out the way it did. Just be "chance" :wink:
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Postby grunt_doc » Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:52 am

I'm new to this forum, but here goes:

At home on my bookshelf, I have the Bible, the Koran, the Torah, and Darwin's Origin of Species all sitting next to eachother. Know why? It's because they are all the same. They each give you the same message from a different cultural perspective. They are different "paths" to the same destination. Science does not discredit creationism, it explains the steps. Science will tell you HOW a tree grows. Faith will tell you WHY a tree grows.

Note I didn't say "religion." It doesn't matter. Faith is the key.

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Postby huntingdude16 » Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:29 am

I am a evolution-supporting Atheist, and proud of it.

How did the first 'spark' of life occur? Here is one of the most common theories...

(I typed this up out of a book, so I would appreciate it if people would respond respectfully)

The First Signs Of Life

Scientists believe that the Earth was formed 4,500 million years ago an dthat for the first 1,000 million years of its existence there was no life here. It was a lifeless planet, just like thousands of others in the universe. But then, about 3,500 million years ago, the first signs of life appeared.

Life Without Oxygen

The air we breathe today contains oxygen, a gas which living things need in order to stay alive. But the farthe back you look in time, the less oxygen there was in the atmosphere. In the beginning there was no oxygen at all.
When Earth was a young planet, its atmosphere was made from a mixtrue of gasses, such as carbon dioxide, methane, and hydrogen sulfide-the gas that makes rotten eggs smell so bad. These gasses colored the sky pink, not blue. To oxygen-breathing dinosaurs-and to humans, too- this is a recipe for tdeath no tlife. But it was in these hostile conditions that life on Earth began.

The "Spark" of Life

The question "How did life begin?" is one of the biggest questions of all, and it is one that has no easy answer. A simple explanation is that life began as the result of a chemical reaction. It began in Earth's oceans, where energy from lightning, the Sun, or even from meteorites that came crashing down provided the all important "spark." As the energy was relieasted it set off a chain reaction among chemicals in the oceans. As the chemicals reacted with each other, structures called organic moclecules were made. Among the new molecules were amino acids--the building blocks of life, from which all living things stem. The story of life on Earth had begun.

Algaue, The Oxygen Makers

The first livning thing son Earth were simple, tiny organisms named bacteria. They lived in the oceans, which were not blue as they are today, but rusty red. There were algae too, organisms that lived in shallow water and that spread out across the coean floor in vast colonies, like huge, sticky blankets. These microscopic specks of algae changed the Earth's atmosphere. In their daily lives they made a waste product that they pumped into the oceans. The waste product was oxygen gas.
At first, the oxygen was dissolved into the oceans. Oxygen changed the water's color from red to blue. THen after the coeans were filled with oxygen, the time had come for the atmosphere to change, too. Oxygen bubbled up from the aglue in the coeans and escaped into the sky. As oxygen filled the atmpshere it took over from carbon dioxide, methane, and hydrogen sulfide. With an atmoshere containing poxygen, they sky's color changed from pink to blue. This oxygen-rich air could be breathed in-- it was time for new froms of life to appear.


and probably the mos interesting part....

Life In A Test Tube

In 1953, the scientist Stanley Miller carried out an experiment in a labratory at the University of Chicago, Illinois. He created an atmsophere similar to the one that existed on Earth 3,000 million years ago. It was a mixture of the gasses methane, hydrogen, and ammonia, to which he added water. Into this "chemical soup" he passed electrical charges, which released energy. After a few days Miller found that amino acids had formed -- he had the ingredients for life.



Now, I realize that the spark of life part was not incredibly detailed, but you get the idea.

I'm not saying this is what happened. It's just a hypothesis. The truth is, we don't know for sure and will never know 100%.



Anyway, here are a couple video's on Atheism. Please, just watch them...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=DaOVPaYf780

http://youtube.com/watch?v=fdVucvo-kDU


This is a video of Atheist and religious skeptic quotes. You may be surprised who you find....
http://youtube.com/watch?v=xZuknsnphEU& ... re=related
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Postby SpinnerMan » Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:26 pm

huntingdude16 wrote:I am a evolution-supporting Atheist, and proud of it.
I am an evolution supporting Christian and proud of it. So what? Our theories are pretty much the same, even if some Christians believe provably false things. No Atheists do this :rolleyes:

You believe there is no higher power and it's 100% pure luck. Christians do not believe that. Unfortunately, neither I nor you will prove whether or not it was pure chance or not until it truly no longer matters.

However, if I am wrong, then I will never know. If you are wrong, you will know it someday. Image Isn't that ironic?
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Postby Rat Creek » Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:30 pm

Huntingdude,

Don’t consider this an attack because it isn’t.

The theory behind life simply forming for some unknown spark is a bit thin, possibly anorexic. I think we humans are pretty arrogant in thinking we can make sense of everything from the beginning of life to global climates. We just can’t. That explanation of how life began has about as much strength as the stork bringing the baby.

As I see it, the videos only purpose is to make atheists feel better about being atheists. Should we list all the fine people in history who believe in God? Are there some smart people who may or may not believe in God? Yes, but I guess I don’t get the point. There are smart people who believe, smart people who don’t and smart people who have moved from one side to the other. Oh well.

Man, I love this controversial issues forum. :thumbsup:
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Postby huntingdude16 » Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:16 pm

I am an evolution supporting Christian and proud of it. So what? Our theories are pretty much the same, even if some Christians believe provably false things. No Atheists do this :rolleyes:

Atheists are often looked down upon and scoffed at. I'm just pointing out that I am not ashamed of saying such a thing. Is there a problem with that?

What do you mean by 'no atheists do this.'?

You believe there is no higher power and it's 100% pure luck. Christians do not believe that. Unfortunately, neither I nor you will prove whether or not it was pure chance or not until it truly no longer matters.

Your right, it is all belief. However, some belief's are more valid than others.

For instance, if I can say I believe in the flying spaghetti monster. "What makes your belief truer than mine?"

Evidence...
In my opinion, if you have to choose, I believe the evidence does not support their being a God.

However, of course, that is the beauty of religion. I can never truely 100% prove there is nothing there, because he 'could be' there. I can't prove he ISNT there. On the contrary, you can't prove he is.
Hence, as you pointed out, these are our beliefs. :wink:


However, if I am wrong, then I will never know. If you are wrong, you will know it someday. Image Isn't that ironic?

I find it ironic that his basic message is....
Worship/believe/follow me, or go to hell.

I'm feeling the love.... :yes:


Rat Creek,
The theory behind life simply forming for some unknown spark is a bit thin, possibly anorexic. I think we humans are pretty arrogant in thinking we can make sense of everything from the beginning of life to global climates. We just can’t. That explanation of how life began has about as much strength as the stork bringing the baby.

It's better than nothing(literally).


As I see it, the videos only purpose is to make atheists feel better about being atheists. Should we list all the fine people in history who believe in God? Are there some smart people who may or may not believe in God? Yes, but I guess I don’t get the point. There are smart people who believe, smart people who don’t and smart people who have moved from one side to the other. Oh well.

My point in posting the videos was to show that Atheists are not inferior, dumb people that lead terrible lives. You may not believe that, but I know there are those that do.

I know there are great people that believe in God. Just pointing out that there are a lot great people who have accomplished a lot that believe just the opposite.


Man, I love this controversial issues forum. :thumbsup:

As do I. :thumbsup: :yes:



I don't intend offense to anyone. To anyone that IS offended by anything I say, I apologize.
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Postby SpinnerMan » Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:03 pm

huntingdude16 wrote:What do you mean by 'no atheists do this.'?
What I meant is that some Christians are idiots and some Atheists are idiots.

Not applying it to you, but my experience is that many proud Atheist have a stereotype of Christians that is not correct and point to the nuts that inhabit any large group. Just as you believe we stereotype you in a certain way. I think my beliefs are more mainstream than the Earth is 10,000 years old because the Bible tells me so crowd.

huntingdude16 wrote:Your right, it is all belief. However, some belief's are more valid than others.
Yep, and mine are more valid than anyone else's. Isn't that what everybody says?

Actually, nobody's beliefs are more valid than other's. Somebody is right and somebody is wrong. We simply will never know, which one of us is correct, but we can fight like hell over it in the meantime. It's a safe thing to argue about because you will never be proven wrong.

huntingdude16 wrote:In my opinion, if you have to choose, I believe the evidence does not support their being a God.
What would the evidence of God look like? There have been a lot of eye witnesses.

SpinnerMan wrote:However, if I am wrong, then I will never know. If you are wrong, you will know it someday. Image Isn't that ironic?

huntingdude16 wrote:I find it ironic that his basic message is....
Worship/believe/follow me, or go to hell.
I personally don't believe that. I believe any good person will get to heaven if they try to live a good life and are truly sorry for their mistakes. There are passages that suggest Christ or hell and others that suggest what I believe. I agree many Christians don't believe what I believe. I don't know if I'm in the majority or minority for this opinion. I believe I will know the answer some day. I hope I'm right.

I believe the rules are the same no matter what your faith and we all come to virtually the same conclusions if we truly believe all people are equal. Whether it's in the eyes of God or not doesn't make a practical difference.

huntingdude16 wrote:I'm feeling the love.... :yes:
That's God you are feeling.
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Postby J Loves Huntin » Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:38 pm

You obviously will one day find out :yes: . The question is what will your decision be. For all of those who believe God is creator or those who believe that evolution happened both can still have eternal life despite their past fallacies. Jesus was human after all and although he Himself never made mistakes, He was surrounded by siblings, parents, friends and finally disciples who made a LOT. Look at Peter he completely denied that he even knew Jesus or had even met the man ( his own words in Matt 26: 69-74.) that a big mistake and yet Jesus still forgave him. Peter went on to be one of the greatest world changers ever Because he was forgiven and choose to believe on Jesus as the Messiah.
Now for all of you who believe you can be a good person without ever accepting Christ, and while only being sorry of your sins, as both Savior and Lord, I have to tell you are most unfortunately wrong. Before you get crazy and tell me not to tell you flat out you are wrong let me show you some proof in the Bible. 1) Mark 14:6 I am the Way the Truth and the Light and no one comes to the Father but through me. 2) Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. 3) Ephesians 2:7-9 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

So as you can see neither works, actions, lifestyles or other religions can get you to heaven, ONLY faith in Jesus as the Savior of your soul and forgiver of your sins.
As I am sure most of you know John 3:16 I will use John 3:18 instead so not to bore you; John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Just want to make sure no one mistakenly believes that there are other ways or that there is no hell. Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.
I want all of you to go to heaven and believe that God is creator. Maybe I am just nice, but I too have made many bad decisions and mistake on purpose and not on purpose and yet God still forgive me and he WOULD LOVE TO DO THE SAME FOR YOU! :thumbsup:
If I offended anyone in telling the truth or as some would call it, my opinion of the truth, I hope you forgive me.
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Postby CLUTCHfan » Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:52 pm

There used to be a girl named Heaven that danced down at "Dream Girls" in Syracuse.
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Postby Preacher1011 » Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:56 pm

CLUTCHfan wrote:There used to be a girl named Heaven that danced down at "Dream Girls" in Syracuse.


Booo... :thumbsdown:
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Postby CLUTCHfan » Wed Jun 11, 2008 9:58 pm

Preacher1011 wrote:
CLUTCHfan wrote:There used to be a girl named Heaven that danced down at "Dream Girls" in Syracuse.


Booo... :thumbsdown:


Nope, Hurray :thumbsup:
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Postby don taylor » Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:32 am

I think that's the kind of Heaven we all want to get in. Regardless of your faith, with a crisp $50, we all could get into Heaven. As long as I go first.
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Postby grunt_doc » Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:48 am

AHH, Dreamgirls. Fond memories....
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Postby jrockncash » Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:38 am

I like the Motto of the Club called Deja Vu. "We got hundreds of beautiful women, and 3 ugly ones."
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Postby Preacher1011 » Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:01 am

How about we all just get along. Let's play a good old fashioned game of grab butt.
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