Evolution vs. Intelligent Design vs. Creationism

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Postby cannon » Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:49 am

dudejcb wrote:
cannon wrote: Belief that it (life) was a random chemical reaction is, in its purest form, atheism.
I disagree. Why can't God work a little less directly to make the possibilty of life happen?


My point was that the existence of a creator would preclude possibility of random events resulting in life. Regardless of the ensuing chaos, if initially masterminded by a creator, the event is not random. The assumption that completely random events lead to life leaves no room for the existence of a creator. If one believes that there was no creator, he believes there is no God. If one believes there is no God, he is an atheist. A purely scientific approach to the big bang theory would assume completely random events, and, thus, no God.
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Postby SpinnerMan » Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:05 pm

huntingdude16 wrote:One thing i've noticed is that the status of science relating to God has changed a lot over time. Look at Charles Darwin and his time period. When he proposed that animals evolved, he was scoffed and laughed at, because everybody believed God created everything as it was and......yeah. Look at today. Now you have people saying evolution was all just apart of his plan. :huh:
I agree. However, the point of religion is not to explain the universe in a scientific manner. Religious leaders should and always should have stayed out of science. As I noted a few posts back. Religion helps you determine what you should do and science tells you how to accomplish that. How we got here doesn't matter in any practical way.

However it happened, it was guided by the hand of God. Scientific opinion may proven wrong, but this statement will always be true to Christians. You can't win the argument. Just like there is no way I will change your mind. You will simply adapt your belief to be inline with current scientific consensus, which has never changed over time :no:

The real problem is unrelated to this topic. People should be allowed to teach their children more or less what the hell ever they want. However, for all practical purposes, many children are forced to attend the government run schools. Wouldn't you be upset if your children were forced to be taught something you didn't want them to be taught? It's not unreasonable to try an influence what your kids are and are not being taught. It's not surprising that people get upset when they are forced to tolerate things they do not believe in. Forced religion or forced anti-religious teaching are opposite sides of the same coin and there are fanatics on both side.
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Postby rmh » Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:17 pm

I promised myself I'd stay out of this thread. Public schools, at least in MD, have an opt out clause for students if their parents don't wish them to be in class for the evolution unit. Same thing for sex ed in Health class. Had a kid a couple years ago repeating health for the third time, he was a senior, and his mother had him sit out sex ed. By the time this kid was a senior he had 3 kids by 3 different girls. Mom had religious objections for making him sit out and handled his "birds and bees" training herself.
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Postby dudejcb » Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:19 pm

Classic!
What's so funny 'bout peace love and understanding?
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Postby SpinnerMan » Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:20 pm

Sounds like he understood it pretty well.
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Postby rmh » Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:23 pm

Yeah but I think Mom skipped the birth control part. Lot of other pathologies involved, too.
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Postby dudejcb » Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:33 pm

If she's like a lot of mom's around here she wanted grandchildren and taught her "course" accordingly.

Are they on AFDC? (Aid for Dependent children) that would really tie this up in a knot.
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Postby huntingdude16 » Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:51 pm

However it happened, it was guided by the hand of God. Scientific opinion may proven wrong, but this statement will always be true to Christians. You can't win the argument. Just like there is no way I will change your mind. You will simply adapt your belief to be inline with current scientific consensus, which has never changed over time.

Thats the funny part, that I can't win.

If I said I believe in the flying spaghetti monster, I could also tell you to prove there isnt one, and have just as valid of an arguement.

It just seems silly.....

The real problem is unrelated to this topic. People should be allowed to teach their children more or less what the hell ever they want. However, for all practical purposes, many children are forced to attend the government run schools. Wouldn't you be upset if your children were forced to be taught something you didn't want them to be taught? It's not unreasonable to try an influence what your kids are and are not being taught. It's not surprising that people get upset when they are forced to tolerate things they do not believe in. Forced religion or forced anti-religious teaching are opposite sides of the same coin and there are fanatics on both side.

I basicly agree with the point brought up on the video I posted about religious vs. non-religious life. That is, let your childeren decide for themselves. Let them hear both sides and let them choose. My parents basicly 'let me' because we never went to church or anything like that. This has allowed me to view religion as an 'outsider' and make a decision.
Though, I have a feeling even if I had went to church, i'm one to think for myself and not be forced into anything, so I probably would have rejected it anyway.
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Postby rmh » Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:51 pm

Of course the kids went on welfare. Original Mom and family live in an upscale subdivision and drive only Lexuses. The son would come to school wearing $800 worth of clothes, daily.
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Postby don taylor » Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:12 am

huntingdude16 wrote:
However it happened, it was guided by the hand of God. Scientific opinion may proven wrong, but this statement will always be true to Christians. You can't win the argument. Just like there is no way I will change your mind. You will simply adapt your belief to be inline with current scientific consensus, which has never changed over time.

Thats the funny part, that I can't win.

If I said I believe in the flying spaghetti monster, I could also tell you to prove there isnt one, and have just as valid of an arguement.

It just seems silly.....

The real problem is unrelated to this topic. People should be allowed to teach their children more or less what the hell ever they want. However, for all practical purposes, many children are forced to attend the government run schools. Wouldn't you be upset if your children were forced to be taught something you didn't want them to be taught? It's not unreasonable to try an influence what your kids are and are not being taught. It's not surprising that people get upset when they are forced to tolerate things they do not believe in. Forced religion or forced anti-religious teaching are opposite sides of the same coin and there are fanatics on both side.

I basicly agree with the point brought up on the video I posted about religious vs. non-religious life. That is, let your childeren decide for themselves. Let them hear both sides and let them choose. My parents basicly 'let me' because we never went to church or anything like that. This has allowed me to view religion as an 'outsider' and make a decision.
Though, I have a feeling even if I had went to church, i'm one to think for myself and not be forced into anything, so I probably would have rejected it anyway.


What does that have to do with anything? You think you can explain everything in this world?

My father never took me ice skating. I like to think for myself and probably wouldn't have liked it anyways.

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Postby jrockncash » Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:45 am

Where do you even get 800$ clothes. But in that case no wonder he gave three different ladies the finisher move.

Every girls crazy bout a sharp dressed man.
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Postby rmh » Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:14 pm

jrockncash wrote:Where do you even get 800$ clothes. But in that case no wonder he gave three different ladies the finisher move.

Every girls crazy bout a sharp dressed man.


$200-$300 Nikes
$120 Hilfiger pullovers
$200 Jeans
$150-$200 sweater
$35-$50 cap

Nordstrom's, Nieman-Marcus.

The topper was that the kid was dumber than a box of rocks. He pulled out of my Psych class because it was too difficult.
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Postby jehler » Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:43 pm

rmh wrote:He pulled out of my Psych class because it was too difficult.
I'm guessing it may be the first time he's pulled out
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Postby rmh » Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:59 pm

Looks like it.
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Postby jrockncash » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:13 pm

I dont think Id make it with the ladys at your school Randy. My cheap 5 brothers brown work pants and Hickory logging shirt probably wouldnt fit in to well. :rofl:



BTW Axe Men is great! I cant stop laughing when I watch it.
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Postby rmh » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:20 pm

There would be a certain number that would like the logger look. More a few years ago. And Divine, my 9th grade "male" who began shaving his legs this year. Damn, we're back to another thread.

I haven't watched an entire show yet, now that I have a bit more time I probably will, especially with OnDemand. Wife gets ticked at the History/Discovery Channel/Court TV shows.
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Postby huntingdude16 » Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:13 pm

What does that have to do with anything? You think you can explain everything in this world?

Uh, what? :help:
I don't see how that was a response to anything I said.... :huh:

But i'll respond anyway. No, I don't know everything. Thats the nice thing about being an atheist. We can say simply 'I don't know', instead of filling it with some magical being to try and provide an answer. Were comfortable with un-known. Sure, we would like to know, but beings we'll never know, oh well. We don't worry about it.


My father never took me ice skating. I like to think for myself and probably wouldn't have liked it anyways.

Ok????........ :huh:


I give everthing a shot.

Give an Atheist-lifestyle a shot. I bet you'll like it. :thumbsup:
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Postby pennsyltucky » Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:50 am

anybody else watch the show on the history channel laast night, "How Life Began"?

good show.
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Postby Greenhead Grappler » Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:17 am

I've noticed kids maturing to fast for their own good anyway. most of them can teach the sex ed course. dont think by keeping your kid out of that class or lifestyle that you're somehow "saving" them. private schools, christian academies, its all bs.
you're better to let him be exposed to it and teach him whats wrong and right than to just hope you never have to cross that bridge.

i believe in God as my creator and the creator of everything, but i dont see how anyone could deny evolution to a certain extent. we can see it. go to a museum and look at it. the bible is interpreted in a hundred different ways so it will all come down to personal beliefs. but the thing that i find most funny is how atheist are not supposed to believe in anything or by our culture not known to push their beliefs on others. and yet, hasn't "disproving science" (or not believing in God) become a "religion" in itself? its become a banwagon, and they are guilty of the very thing they preach against.
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Postby SpinnerMan » Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:31 am

huntingdude16 wrote:No, I don't know everything. Thats the nice thing about being an atheist. We can say simply 'I don't know',
So are you agnostic (don't know if there is a God or not), are an atheist (know that there is NOT a God). That is a very important destinction. Basically, by saying you are an atheist, you are saying that you do in fact know something that we pretty much agreed is unknowable until it's too late. At least for you Image, sorry couldn't help myself. :umm:
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Postby captainduckhead » Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:19 am

Atheists are very rare. Atheists believe that there is NO God. That seems a little risky to me. Most people that claim to be Atheist are young, rebellious , mouthy, dim witted kids, that just feel like saying something blasphemous, and controvesial.
I knew a kid who claimed he was an Atheist. About 3 months later he told me what he had for Christmas dinner. :huh:
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Postby dudejcb » Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:30 pm

[quote="captainduckhead"] Most people that claim to be Atheist are young, rebellious , mouthy, dim witted kids, that just feel like saying something blasphemous, and controvesial.[quote]You mean like us?... only younger.
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Postby huntingdude16 » Wed Jun 18, 2008 1:22 am

So are you agnostic (don't know if there is a God or not), are an atheist (know that there is NOT a God). That is a very important destinction. Basically, by saying you are an atheist, you are saying that you do in fact know something that we pretty much agreed is unknowable until it's too late. At least for you , sorry couldn't help myself.

The video I posted in my original post says it better than I can...

"Atheists accept that things that are yet unknown, are simply things that are yet unknown. Science is marching on to new answers every day. We can rest assured that just because we don't know the origin of the universe, we don't have to put a God in that place. It is true that the knowledge of the universe is very small. But why should we fill those gaps, in our knowledge, with a magical being. Why does a magical being make better sense than just accepting that we don't know. Atheists are comfortable with the unknown. We know, that we are learning more every day."

Atheists are very rare.

Untrue.

Atheists make up 16.1% of the U.S population as of March 1st 2008. Up from 13.2% in 2001, and 7.5% in 1990.

Among Americans ages 18-29, 1 in 4 say they are not affiliated with any particular religion.

Obviously not the majority, but 'very rare' is simply not correct.

In Europe, overall, 48% of the total population does not believe there is a God.
56% of Europe ages 15-24 do not believe in a God.
74% of Britain does not believe in a personal God.


Paul Bell wrote an article in Mensa magazine.

Bell concluded, that of the 43 studies carrried out since 1927 on the relationship between ones relgious belief's and ones intelligence and/or education level, all but 4 found an inverse connection.
That is, the higher one's intelligence or education level, the less one is likely to be religious or hold any "beliefs" any kind.

In Europe for example, a survey by the Tearfund organization shows that 65% of people who ended their education at 15 believe in God. Of those whose education ended at age 16-19, 49% believe in God. And of those whose education ended at age 20+, 45% do not believe in a God.

Basicly, the more schooling they recieved, the fewer believed in God.



Source...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=T27kB4BjbEg


I knew a kid who claimed he was an Atheist. About 3 months later he told me what he had for Christmas dinner.

Myself, I take Christmas as more of an excuse to get together to see the family. Of course the gifts are nice, but I see it as just doing something nice for someone as they do something nice for me.
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Postby jehler » Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:46 am

huntingdude16 wrote:Myself, I take Christmas as more of an excuse to get together to see the family. Of course the gifts are nice, but I see it as just doing something nice for someone as they do something nice for me.
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Postby LIGHT12 » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:13 am

From my own experiences, those who have Higher education. Enlightened ones, also often have their head up there butt so far they don't know what the average person puts up with in there life. Education means nothing. Rather how a person leads their life. My brothers best friend has a HS diploma. But is by far the wealthiest graduate of our H.S. the past 25 years, possibly much longer. Education means nothing to me. It means you read books, and decided to be a student for a long time. This coming from someone with a Bachelors, going to get a master soon. Educated means crap. It the people that do something with their lives that count in most peoples books. I have found all to often people that say how educated they are, act it, often are harder to deal with in life. And generally are less tolerant of other and others beliefs. So i guess those numbers really don't surprise me.
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