Taxes...

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Taxes...

Postby don taylor » Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:39 am

Well I figured that maybe we could debate the finer points of a flat tax and all the new taxes they come up with. The most recent one I heard was a Federal Saltwater Fishing license. 3 years from now is the time frame I got.
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Postby grunt_doc » Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:11 am

A flat tax is the way to go. I can't believe that people think that it's another "tax the poor, save the rich" goverment scam. it's not rocket surgery. if you pay the same % of your income in taxes, then you each pay the same "burden." earn more, pay more. earn less, pay less. sit on the stoop all day waiting for your government check, live off the work of others....
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Postby wackemstackem » Tue Jun 17, 2008 6:54 am

The saltwater liscense is comming.Many states allready have it,when they find a way to actally put most of the money back into fishing is when fisherman wont complain about it and it will be implimented.With gas on the water at 4.79 a gal and gas continuing to go up their wont be many fisherman to buy it.
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Postby Dolsmi » Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:12 am

grunt_doc wrote:.... it's not rocket surgery....


:huh: :rofl:
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Postby SpinnerMan » Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:23 am

I really don't get too worked up about the details of the taxes. Whatever they do, those in the middle pay the freight. Those truly with a low income have no money, so you can't get blood from a rock. Those with high income year over year, can afford to structure their life to avoid paying taxes or passing them on to somebody else. Reduce per capita spending and the burden will go down. That is the first and foremost priority. That is the only way that the real tax burden bore on the middle income people will actually be reduced.

My preference is for a flat rate above a certain income with no refundable tax credits and few lifestyle deductions. Like we are going to get politicians off their handout addiction or any other sensible reform without term limits. I would put term limits ahead of reduced spending as a priority.

How they nickel and dime us really doesn't matter to me. We have to pay the bills and all the games they play with the tax code, fees, etc., will not change the amount of money that they must get out of the average person.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2008/pdf/08msr.pdf
The current Federal expenditures for FY08 is estimated $2,918B. Assuming 300M people in the U.S., that is a per capita spending of $9,717 per person or the average family of 4 has a federal tax burden of $38,907. A good chunck of that comes from taxes that are passed on to you such as the higher cost passed on from corporate taxes, which reduce the value of your pension or 401k and raise the prices of everything that you buy or federal taxes on gasoline.

If you are about average, this is what you are paying and it doesn't matter what it says you are paying on your 1040. A simple tax form would help reveal some of the shell game that is going on, which wouldn't hurt.
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Postby jehler » Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:46 pm

How about a national sales tax so all the under the table guys...like don :rofl: have to pay their share :huh:
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Postby LIGHT12 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:11 pm

:dito:

it would be a tough transition. But it is truly the only fair tax. It is based on wha tyo spend not what you earn. Pimps and Drug Dealers would then be paying their share also. Along with the uberrich, and everyone else. It will not happen because people would have sticker shock when they saw the taxes they payed for anything.

I say we stop employer with holdings. we all pay as if we were independent contractors. And we move election day to April 16th.

that might fix a few problems.
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Postby jehler » Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:16 pm

I do the payroll for my company and if the guys that work for me had to withhold on their own and anny up every quarter like I do they would definately be more involved in politics
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Postby Redline29 » Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:17 pm

:dito: with Light 12
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Postby don taylor » Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:11 pm

jehler wrote:How about a national sales tax so all the under the table guys...like don :rofl: have to pay their share :huh:


Ohhh. low blow. How am I supposed to pay taxes on my Mexican drywall team? I'm lucky if I clear 20K a year and I'm killing myself for it. Maybe if they took less from my paycheck I wouldn't feel so good shafting them. but they don't, so I do.
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Postby flight canceled » Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:33 pm

taxes suck. thats all there is to it. i loose so much of my paycheck for that crap.
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Postby Rat Creek » Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:08 pm

A flat tax or a flat sales tax. Either is preferred though I might pay more overall. I don’t know.

The current set up of rewarding people for certain behavior is just stupid. If you have a mortgage, you get some tax break. If you rent, you don’t. Have kids? Get a break. No kids? Screw you.

I have a mortgage, kids, etc. and I hate all the games.

Just set one percentage for all and forget the games.

There is no way congress goes for this though because they are all about controlling peoples lives.
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Postby pennsyltucky » Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:23 pm

Rat Creek wrote:
There is no way congress goes for this though because they are all about controlling peoples lives.


thats their job. thats all they are there for. every thing they do boils down to that.... ridiculous
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Postby don taylor » Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:18 pm

I heard today the figures that would be both McCain's and Obama's tax plans for us. While I can't recall the stats exactly, I do specifically recall Obama is for a FICA increase and ending the Bush tax cuts. In my bracket the difference between the two is over $4000. How do people justify voting for this idiot?
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Postby jrockncash » Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:54 pm

The only option is that they are ignorant Don. They cant look at his campaign promises and his voting record and seriously be for him. They are either purely "party" guys that vote the same way every year or just dont understand what his statements mean.

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Postby LIGHT12 » Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:24 am

jrockncash wrote:The only option is that they are ignorant Don. They cant look at his campaign promises and his voting record and seriously be for him. They are either purely "party" guys that vote the same way every year or just dont understand what his statements mean.

Universal Health Care = Free money baby.


You mean his voting record of PRESENT. LOL. Obama is lame. I can't believe people fall for his crap.

Oh and you boys that are not self employed. Look at your next pay stub, and imagine paying twice the social security as that. Thats what some of us get for the right to work for ourselves.
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Postby dudejcb » Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:23 pm

grunt_doc wrote:A flat tax is the way to go. I can't believe that people think that it's another "tax the poor, save the rich" goverment scam. it's not rocket surgery. if you pay the same % of your income in taxes, then you each pay the same "burden." earn more, pay more. earn less, pay less. sit on the stoop all day waiting for your government check, live off the work of others....
first off, you're mixing metaphors... rocket science and brain surgery. piock one or the ther or say somenting cute like... "mixed metaphors aside, my point is... Why do I keep giving writing lesson?

second, AND TO THE POINT... if you pay 10% taxes on your $30, $40, $60k, or even $80K; and Bill Gates or Waren Buffet pay 10% on their $5 billion; is that an equitable distribution of our national tax burden? I know the math is simple, but if you even sniff the notion of "ability to pay" and give it any thought whatosoever, you may start to see why taxes are not so simple. I could see using a flat tax applied to cerain salaray ranges. Say (pick any7 number, but for illustration) those who make $40 to $75K pay 10%; those making $76 tp $110K pay 15%, and so on.

The issue of freeloaders is not a part of the calculus eventhough it is a consternation. There should be a different approach to deal with that issue.
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Postby jrockncash » Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:18 pm

Then why not a tax based on consumerism. You pay 15% more for what you buy and it goes to the pool of taxes. No Income just consumer tax.

If Im not mistaked thats what The Huckster was talking about.

That way if i buy a fishing pole and a new gun I pay my taxes by spending an extra 10% on the stuff and when LL Bean buys a hunting "Ranch" for their douche bag employees they pay 15% or 500,000$ in taxes.

This isnt necessarily the way I want it to go just another thing for you's guy's to argue about. :rofl:
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Postby dudejcb » Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:45 pm

rich people alrady have most of the toys or other consumer items they want or need, while the rest of us are still trying to acquire (or upgrade) whatever we think we can afford. that's one of the basic differnce between the classes.

so if we went to a consumer tax, who would be the primary consumer. We would of course, whihc is why the tax rebate targeted us... because we consume and can be relied upon to spend whatever comes into our hands.

There is a logic behind why they call it (taxes tiered toward where higher earners pay more than lower earners) progressive.
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Postby SpinnerMan » Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:29 pm

Most flat tax advocates are what I describe. A 0% tax rate below a certain level. Much like the current standard deduction. Except, this values is a much bigger number. I think around $35k for a family of four. Than a flat rate on all income above that at something like 15% or 20%.

Let's assume $35k and 20%. Your effective tax rate.

<$35k - 0%
$70k - 10%
$140k - 15%
$280k - 17.5%

It actually is a very progressive tax system with the low income people having a zero tax burden, which I assume takes into account their ability to pay. The middle income people pay an effective tax rate that is roughly half that of the high income people. The only people paying an effective rate near 20% are those making a pile of money.

It removes all the games and a lot of the incentives to play those games. The tax rate on the next dollar earned is alway 20% once you get above $35k, it reduces the disincentive to make more money that high earners have, which is important because high earners make more money in large part by employing other people to do work for them. It also reduces the incentive to hire lawyers, accounts, and all the things that are done to play shell games to hide income and avoid high tax rates. You only save $0.20 for every dollar you hide versus $0.35 now and as much as $0.80 (or something like that) in the past.

If we have a national sales tax to get drug dealers to pay their fare share, are we going to charge them with not collecting sales tax from their customers and sending it to the government? Just wondering.
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Postby dudejcb » Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:44 am

this is a good plan.... flat, yet progressive. I guess we (or at least I0 was talking past one another and not really understanding what the other was attmpting to convey.

another incident of harmonious convergence! Yikes!
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Postby LIGHT12 » Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:30 pm

All explain to me why a progressive income tax is fair. I really would like to know.
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Postby SpinnerMan » Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:19 pm

I see none of our resident progressives jumped in to explain why a progressive income tax with escalating rates is fair.

That kind of system is not fair and everybody knows it.

The flat rate with a large standard deduction and little other deductions is fair because those just starting out, and especially those with children, that are earning little will benefit from the little bit of extra money and we all benefit because they are working. However, we have to pay the bills. Taxing every dollar above the threshold exactly the same seems to be the fairest system that minimizes the disincentive to do more work. This just happens to be a progressive tax system. It's a case of Conservatives accomplishing the same goals as the liberals without all of the unintended negative consequences associated with the liberal ideas.

However, I believe the primary motivation behind the escalation of rates is so the progressives can tell their constituents that they are screwing the rich and make the ignorant (either because of age or just plain stupidity) low income earners feel better and more prone to vote for them. I say ignorant because it will be their jobs, their wages, and their consumption, that will actually pay these higher rates and not the evil rich, but who cares. They feel better and isn't that what it's all about.

There is a reason that the progressive work so hard to get the votes of the most ignorant voting block eligible to vote. If 15 year olds could vote, they would go after them. Why don't the progressive try to win the middle-aged, married with children voting block? This is the most well informed voting block because they have elderly parents, they are in the prime of their working career, and they have children that range from babies to their 20's.
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