Drilling in ANWR and offshore

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Drilling in ANWR and offshore

Postby don taylor » Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:09 pm

GWB laid it out. start drilling or start accepting the blame for the high gas prices. Since taking congress 2 years ago gas has gone up $1.78 a gallon. Back in Clintons time we got barrels for $19. Wow was it a stupid idea to stop all exploration and drilling in the US. How do you think they are going to take credit for the prices dropping by just the announcement we are starting to drill offshore?
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Postby pennsyltucky » Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:04 am

drilling in anwr will lower gas prices 3.5 cents a gallon 8-10 years from now. why do you guys keep up with the notion that anwr is our savior?



"even if tomorrow we opened up every square mile of the outer Continental Shelf to offshore rigs, even if we drilled the entire state of Alaska and pulled new refineries out of thin air, the impact on gas prices would be minimal and delayed at best. A 2004 study by the government's Energy Information Administration (EIA) found that drilling in ANWR would trim the price of gas by 3.5 cents a gallon by 2027. (If oil prices continue to skyrocket, the savings would be greater, but not by much.) Opening up offshore areas to oil exploration — currently all coastal areas save a section of the Gulf of Mexico are off-limits, thanks to a Congressional ban enacted in 1982 and supplemented by an executive order from the first President Bush — might cut the price of gas by 3 to 4 cents a gallon at most, according to the Natural Resources Defense Council. And the relief at the pump, such as it is, wouldn't be immediate — it would take several years, at least, for the oil to begin to flow, which is time enough for increased demand from China, India and the rest of the world to outpace those relatively meager savings. "Right now the price of oil is set on the global market," says Kevin Lindemer, executive managing director of the energy markets group for the research firm Global Insight. President Bush's move "would not have an impact."

http://www.time.com/time/business/artic ... 84,00.html


its stupid to even pretend that we can drill our way out of this mess of overpopulation and gluttony. we will take it in the pooper. end of story. so your suggesstion is that we rape and ruin every last corner of this planet in the search for more finite sources of oil? that way when it does run out, there wont be ANYTHING left? :huh:
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Postby don taylor » Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:44 am

Oil speculation and the predictions of its market value in the future control the current cost of barrels of oil. If we announce that the supply is going up, the price will drop in the futures market. That's where the whole prediction thing happens. When the futures market's prices drop the cost of a barrel the same day as the announcement don't be surprised.
In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if you see the price become stagnant or drop starting today. The Saudi's releasing more than before will help that too.

3.5 cents a gallon 8 years from now? Do you know we sit on more oil than Saudi Arabia? Instead of quoting time magazine go to ANWR.ORG and read what they say. ANWR was set aside FOR oil and now guess who's drilling 60 miles off our coast for Cuba? I guess they are stupid for drilling for it, huh? Why do you suppose China and Cuba would do such a foolish thing?
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Postby David » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:31 am

pennsyltucky wrote:A 2004 study by the government's Energy Information Administration (EIA) found that drilling in ANWR would trim the price of gas by 3.5 cents a gallon by 2027. (If oil prices continue to skyrocket, the savings would be greater, but not by much.)


In 2004 the savings would have been about 3.5 cents. I seriously doubt they had any idea that it would be 3 times the price in 4 years. The savings would be a great deal more.

Why not drill offshore. We have it here along the gulf coast, it isn't new technology. My sister-in-law has been working on deep water drilling rigs and ships for years. The best fishing is around the rigs, both close to shore and way off-shore.
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Postby apexhunter » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:49 am

Amen Don...you beat me to the punch with my exact thoughts.

Reality is that futures DO control current trading values of oil. And these are controlled by political factors more than by the actual availability at any given time...political factors dealing with the interworkings of the OPEC countries moreso than with the US.

Oil, being the sole commodity export of many middle eastern countries, has simply become more a more volitile market of late due to the political unrest in most of the region- not just Iraq and Afghanistan. Have we added "fuel to the fire" (no pun intended)? Definitely. But on the other hand, the industrial resurgence of China and France and their tremendous use of fossil fuels has as much to do with the current oil market as our actual demand and the war on terror does.

I saw some stats last night that were eye opening, especially if one looks past the numbers at the actual cost versus demand. Last time gas was under $1.00 was in 1999; under $2.00 was around 2002; under $3.00 was around 2005 or 6. The question is has our national demand gone up at the same rate as the price? Hell no. Matter of fact, with more fuel efficient vehicles on the road our demand is growing much slower than the cost.
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Postby jrockncash » Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:05 am

pennsyltucky wrote:drilling in anwr will lower gas prices 3.5 cents a gallon 8-10 years from now. why do you guys keep up with the notion that anwr is our savior?



"even if tomorrow we opened up every square mile of the outer Continental Shelf to offshore rigs, even if we drilled the entire state of Alaska and pulled new refineries out of thin air, the impact on gas prices would be minimal and delayed at best. A 2004 study by the government's Energy Information Administration (EIA) found that drilling in ANWR would trim the price of gas by 3.5 cents a gallon by 2027. (If oil prices continue to skyrocket, the savings would be greater, but not by much.) Opening up offshore areas to oil exploration — currently all coastal areas save a section of the Gulf of Mexico are off-limits, thanks to a Congressional ban enacted in 1982 and supplemented by an executive order from the first President Bush — might cut the price of gas by 3 to 4 cents a gallon at most, according to the Natural Resources Defense Council. And the relief at the pump, such as it is, wouldn't be immediate — it would take several years, at least, for the oil to begin to flow, which is time enough for increased demand from China, India and the rest of the world to outpace those relatively meager savings. "Right now the price of oil is set on the global market," says Kevin Lindemer, executive managing director of the energy markets group for the research firm Global Insight. President Bush's move "would not have an impact."

http://www.time.com/time/business/artic ... 84,00.html


its stupid to even pretend that we can drill our way out of this mess of overpopulation and gluttony. we will take it in the pooper. end of story. so your suggesstion is that we rape and ruin every last corner of this planet in the search for more finite sources of oil? that way when it does run out, there wont be ANYTHING left? :huh:


Very good post. Im still against drilling on land but willing to concede the ocean if it helps. Granted its not going to do anything for awhile but commonsense says to me at least if we have more we arent going to pay as much for it.

I still think the main focus should not be oil, it should be something renewable. Something we can grow that doesnt compete with our food. Biomass sounds good to me. Turn that greenhouse we call the south loose and let them grow some fuel. (Not corn Ethanol) Switchgrass, Nuke power (as long as the plant is in Illinois) and solar.

Solar/Hydrogen is probably the smartest because they are the most plentiful.

But what is easiest? Thats the answer. Humans are generally lazy, so what is the easiest thing for us to do? Drill more and lean on oil. Thats what is going to happen. Guaranteed. Big oil wants more oil, they are motivated and all they need is to be turned loose and theyre off to the races. So alternatives sound nice on paper but no one is going to do it cause it would be hard. The only chance America has (to be hajji oil free) is if we are challenged to come up with alternatives.
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Postby jaysweet3 » Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:40 am

Even if the effects of us taking oil off of our own country won't be seen for a few years. I am still prettty sure I will be buying gas then.
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Postby Redline29 » Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:50 pm

I have heard, and I can't verify it yet, but I have heard after setting up to drill they can have oil out of the ground within 30 days. Now like I said, im not sure if that is true or even how much oil they could produce at that time, but we have to do something now. I am tired of people saying we cant drill our way out of this problem. Even if that was true, maybe we can drill ourselves halfway out of the problem, we have to start somewhere.
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Postby Rat Creek » Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:48 pm

I have heard very reliable people say that the ten year figure is worst case scenario and that four to seven is much more accurate. Just because it won’t impact total supply tomorrow is not a good reason not to do it. Here are some things to consider.

Oil producing countries can only use supply to manipulate prices. They really don’t want the US in the business against them, so if the US states we are getting back in the oil business, their only option to keep us out is to increase the supply of oil, thus lowering the price and making it less feasible to drill profitably. They will not wait until we are in the business to do this. They will do it immediately.

A significant reason for the current high prices is that we have announced to the world that we will not explore our country for additional oil. When our current congress took office and announced to the world that they are the green party and will never allow additional oil exploration or refining in the US, OPEC sees that as a perfect opportunity to put us over a barrel (pun intended).

Oil speculators buy when they expect the price to go up. That is how they make money. Prices can trend up with no rationale like during the tech stock craze of the late 90s. If the US announces we are going full speed ahead with production, oil speculators will start taking the opposite positions and the prices could fall fast, especially combined with OPECs desire to keep us from producing our own.

And lastly, though I am not a big GW fan, when he came into office, he outlined a plan for energy independence that included oil exploration, nuclear and expanded refining. Just as they are saying today, people discredited it by saying it wouldn’t have an impact for almost ten years. Well guess what, it has been almost ten years, so we would be reaping the benefits now if people could see past the next weekend.

Drill here, drill now. :thumbsup:
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Postby apexhunter » Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:11 am

I totally agree Rat...if we had listened to and congress had acted upon what the prognosticators told us years ago we COULD have possibly been much more prepared for the current situation. Problem is trying to get past the fact that using congress and "acting upon" in the same phrase is an oxymoron.

One more thought on the oil versus renewable debate...I heard an interview with a leading scientist last week that brought much light to the "renewable" status of oil. He stated that oil is actually very renewable in that it is being formed every second of every minute of every day. His statistics were sound in that the estimated total volume of the known oil fields 10 or 20 years ago is much less than what they are estimated at today. His numbers, which are backed up by surveys and common sense math, show that oil is forming at a rate equal to or faster than we are drawing it out.

I'm not saying we don't need to explore other cleaner and easily accessible sources for energy, but the statement that oil is a finite resource is false. It is just a matter of allowing the producers to tap into our own resources to gain independence from OPEC.
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Postby Rat Creek » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:03 am

And one more thing. When I hear about people talking about drilling in Alaska, it is important to remember what a large place Alaska is and what a small footprint is required for drilling.

Alaska contains 375,000,000 million acres of land. It is estimate that it will require 2000 acres to drill in AWNR. That is .000005 or 5 one-thousandths of one percent. These numbers are hard to visualize, so do it this way.

If you live in a 2000 square foot house, you can take a business card, tear off the top third and drop it on the floor. By comparison to the rest of your house, that is how much of Alaska will be utilized for drilling in ANWR. Then walk around your house and ask yourself if it is worth it and if you think it will ruin the pristine habitat of Alaska. And by the way, Alaskans want to drill.
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Postby pennsyltucky » Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:30 pm

Rat Creek wrote:And one more thing. When I hear about people talking about drilling in Alaska, it is important to remember what a large place Alaska is and what a small footprint is required for drilling.

Alaska contains 375,000,000 million acres of land. It is estimate that it will require 2000 acres to drill in AWNR. That is .000005 or 5 one-thousandths of one percent. These numbers are hard to visualize, so do it this way.

If you live in a 2000 square foot house, you can take a business card, tear off the top third and drop it on the floor. By comparison to the rest of your house, that is how much of Alaska will be utilized for drilling in ANWR. Then walk around your house and ask yourself if it is worth it and if you think it will ruin the pristine habitat of Alaska. And by the way, Alaskans want to drill.



and that card needs to be shredded into a few hundred pieces and spread evenly to cover a huge area.

what difference does it make how big the state is? thats a totally retarded arguement. whats the difference between 2000 acres in alaska or 2000 acres in rhode island? its 2000 more acres of this little planet that should be left the hell alone. end of story. your (collectively, OUR) greed gives you the rights to everything you want? regardless of the reprocussions?
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Postby Redline29 » Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:24 pm

pennsyltucky wrote:
Rat Creek wrote:And one more thing. When I hear about people talking about drilling in Alaska, it is important to remember what a large place Alaska is and what a small footprint is required for drilling.

Alaska contains 375,000,000 million acres of land. It is estimate that it will require 2000 acres to drill in AWNR. That is .000005 or 5 one-thousandths of one percent. These numbers are hard to visualize, so do it this way.

If you live in a 2000 square foot house, you can take a business card, tear off the top third and drop it on the floor. By comparison to the rest of your house, that is how much of Alaska will be utilized for drilling in ANWR. Then walk around your house and ask yourself if it is worth it and if you think it will ruin the pristine habitat of Alaska. And by the way, Alaskans want to drill.



and that card needs to be shredded into a few hundred pieces and spread evenly to cover a huge area.

what difference does it make how big the state is? thats a totally retarded arguement. whats the difference between 2000 acres in alaska or 2000 acres in rhode island? its 2000 more acres of this little planet that should be left the hell alone. end of story. your (collectively, OUR) greed gives you the rights to everything you want? regardless of the reprocussions?



Yes it does. It's not greed it is the way the things are. We are an oil dependant nation. That is a fact. If you want to go back to windmills and ships powered by sails, and living the "little house on the prarie" lifestyle, have at it. Leave me out, I like modern life.
However going going to camp for a week or so is just fine also.

This planet has more oil than we could ever use. Oil is NOT a finite resourse. The Nature Nazis just want you to think that.
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Postby dudejcb » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:39 pm

Pennsyltucky, we again find ourselves as strange bed fellows.... in that we agree... not that we are, you know, actually bedfellows.

Jrockncash, I appraciate your sentiment, but it doesn't get us to where we need to be friend. Until we can break the bonds of master oil we will continue to be slaves to them.

The next revolution (in a manner similar to the industrial revolution) will be the energy revolution. and getting more now, oil to push that day of reckoning a bit further out, only makes the final reckoning that much harder and painful to deal with. There has never been a free lunch, but it has sometimes seemed so because the price of our prosperty was hidden from view and borne by the backs of others.

Most of you know, but for those who don't, I have worked in the energy field since 1979 as my primary professional activity. This is what I know best, most thoroughly and completely, and is what I work at still. When I say energy I don't mean just oil, or nuclear, or gas, natural gas, or solar, or wind, or efficiency. I mean all of it. I've worked in it as the guy at ground levela and have run programs (where others are at ground zero an at the poicy guidance level) that deal with it all. Whether that gives me standing in this converstion is your call, but I know this stuff, so if anyone thinks he has better takes on it... as GW said... bring it on.

Face it. The rest of the world is starting to have a standard of living like we have enjoyed since the 50's. And as the middle class of India and China become more like us, it means there won't be enough fossil fuel or resources of any kind (cement, steel, etc,) to go around. The cost will continue to escalate and the highest bidder will get it. (stop for a moment and let's think. Who has all the money right now. Oh yeah, we owe China bagillions! Are you getting the picture?)

Our infrastructure is old and needs refurbishing... theirs is brand spanking new and pretty efficient as a rule. figure it out. It's a losing proposition to just try and continue business as usual. Those who figure a way out of the fossil fuel death spiral (like the US should if it had the political leadership and the intestinal fortitude) will be the ones whose children have a future of promise. Everyone else is on a short pleasure cruise that will run aground on the rocks of high oil and gas prices that have soared out of reach.

Unfortunately, our politics have been heavily governed by the vested traditonal energy interests who profit from rising prices... duh... Halliburton, Exxon, you name it... (**** and george) and we are being played like a fiddle. Time to wake up and follow the new ideas, grow some balls, and resolve to move forward...not backward!
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Postby pennsyltucky » Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:56 am

Redline29 wrote:
Yes it does. It's not greed it is the way the things are. We are an oil dependant nation. That is a fact. If you want to go back to windmills and ships powered by sails, and living the "little house on the prarie" lifestyle, have at it. Leave me out, I like modern life.
However going going to camp for a week or so is just fine also.
so..... thats your arguement? just because thats the way it is? you are mistaken, thats not the way it is, thats the way we have made it. that doesnt give you rights to anything. the "way it is" in the big picture doesnt involve 6 billion of us and oil.

This planet has more oil than we could ever use. Oil is NOT a finite resourse. The Nature Nazis just want you to think that.
you wanna explain to me where it comes from then? is it being infused from space into the earth at some secret location? cuz if not, the hole WILL run dry. dont act so naive.
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Postby don taylor » Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:51 am

I'm all for the renewables, but they have a long way to go. The oil would be here quicker than anything else.

BTW my 425 hp 383 stroker mustang can't run on E85. Should we just pitch the classics?
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Postby Chris Bishop » Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:56 am

I agree Dude, you are absolutely correct when you say that the rest of the world is catching up to the USA and the western countries. It is the United States that really leads the world in business and scientific innovation in the world. I hold out hope that the "eggheads" of the world can find a solution to our present situation. I also agree that we have a finite amount of oil in the world and as the standard of living increases in China and India and the rest of the third world , we will always be confronted with the fact there is not enough oil. You cant get past the numbers as the world population surpasses 7 BILLION by roughly 2012 and will only increase exponentially. I dont know if the solution is a deversified energy portfolio or a revolutionary new energy source. But i do think that we are on a deadend road and coming to the end of the status quo.
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Postby Skyblaster7 » Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:38 am

I'll pay 20 bucks a gallon before I agree to drilling in any new area, foreign or domestic.
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Postby dudejcb » Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:47 am

Skyblaster7 wrote:I'll pay 20 bucks a gallon before I agree to drilling in any new area, foreign or domestic.
I agree, and we will pay $20, whihc will provide the economic driver needed to either find a way out of the dead end approach... or allow short-term-thinkers to support drilling that will only postpone the inevitiable.

Here's ana nalogy for the drill now guys. If you knew winter was on the way, would you build and insulate your house now, or just forget about it till later, throw another log and the campfire and continue the summer barbeque? Planning ahead is tough and tiresome... but necessary if you want to get through the winter!
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Postby jehler » Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:36 pm

I can't wait till we run out of oil all together. I am looking forward to living a little more simply and being the best armed on the block :thumbsup:
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Postby jehler » Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:40 pm

dudejcb wrote:Here's ana nalogy for the drill now guys. If you knew winter was on the way, would you build and insulate your house now, or just forget about it till later, throw another log and the campfire and continue the summer barbeque? Planning ahead is tough and tiresome... but necessary if you want to get through the winter!
Can't you insulate the house in the morning and then throw a log on the fire that afternoon? or if your an insulate the house guy your not allowed campfires?
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Postby don taylor » Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:33 pm

jehler wrote:I can't wait till we run out of oil all together. I am looking forward to living a little more simply and being the best armed on the block :thumbsup:


You can always be the best armed in the block, as long as I don't move down the street from you. I bet we could lock down the town between the both of us.
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Postby don taylor » Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:15 pm

jehler wrote:I can't wait till we run out of oil all together. I am looking forward to living a little more simply and being the best armed on the block :thumbsup:


You can always be the best armed in the block, as long as I don't move down the street from you. I bet we could lock down the town between the both of us.
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Postby don taylor » Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:16 pm

jehler wrote:I can't wait till we run out of oil all together. I am looking forward to living a little more simply and being the best armed on the block :thumbsup:


You can always be the best armed in the block, as long as I don't move down the street from you. I bet we could lock down the town between the both of us.
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Postby dudejcb » Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:50 pm

Don,

are you okay? It kind of looks like maybe you might had mouse-finger spasm or three there. I've doubled up myself a few times but never a triple. This could be agood sign for 6theupcoming season... shootin' trips doesn't happen thaqt often.

Jehler. I admit it, that was a rather lame analogy about insulation and bbq fires. and you make a point... the day is long and one can, if inspired, sometimes two or even three different things in ONE day! but for me, at this point... about one job a day is all I'm good for. then I'm spent and it's happy hour.

back to the topic and another analogy... I don't like paying this much for gas any more than anyone else. In fact it pisses me off cuz I know we could be doing better. but instead we keep painting ourselves further and further into the corner.
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