FISA Bill Vote

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FISA Bill Vote

Postby ant » Fri Jun 20, 2008 6:51 pm

Steny Hoyer is bringing to the House floor the latest FISA bill , which includes retroactive immunity for the telcos. The bill also is very weak on judicial review, allowing the telcos to use a letter from the president as a 'get out of liability free' card. Here are comments from the EFF;Glenn Greenwald, writing in Salon, describes the effect of the immunity clause this way: 'So all the Attorney General has to do is recite those magic words — the President requested this eavesdropping and did it in order to save us from the Terrorists — and the minute he utters those words, the courts are required to dismiss the lawsuits against the telecoms, no matter how illegal their behavior was.'"

* basically if the govt. wants to wiretap and watch citizens, they can in the name of terrorist, If corp. america wants to they can get away with it becuase its in the name of terrorists...does anyone see a problem with this??? Why are we being tapped...after all we are the citizens whom the govt. is suppose to protect..right???
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Postby Redline29 » Fri Jun 20, 2008 8:31 pm

I will worry about it if somebody can PROVE that this has EVER been used to prosecute one American cititzen.
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Postby dudejcb » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:21 pm

Redline... the jury is in. When you post something like this it becomes undeniable... and scary. You are an idiot at worst, or a fool at the least. These kinds of magical executive powers (which ar very king-like) have been anathema from the before the Magna Carta, down to the founders, and on to clear thinkers everywhere... you are not included in this group as far as I am concerned. (Saddam had this type power dim wit!)

Your attitude of, gee whiz let's just trust the president to do the right thing--after all it's just to protect us, is akin to that which allowed Hitler to gain control beyond recall... or any other tyrant for that matter!

Tell me. Does the sun ever shine in that lonely place where your head resides?
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Postby jrockncash » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:30 pm

I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul. :lol: :lol:

Probably the harshest rebuttal Ive seen in awhile.

Whats the matter Duder you worried big brother listening to you rant about growin dope in your basement? :rofl:

Whenever I think about this stuff I get torn. I want terrorists dead and if this helps then so be it. But then I think about the quote
" Those who chose security over liberty shall recieve neither"

Cant rember which founding father said it but it is relevant.
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Postby dudejcb » Fri Jun 20, 2008 9:59 pm

I should grow dope in my basement. At least then I'd have sme currency with value.

Yeah, ot's harsh... but true. I don't need points to buttress the truth.
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Postby Preacher1011 » Fri Jun 20, 2008 10:53 pm

jrock wrote:I award you no points and may God have mercy on your soul.


Don't you tell me my business devil woman.
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Postby don taylor » Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:26 am

Dirka! Dirka! Jihad!

That statement set off a trigger in DC.

Is there proof of spying to prosecute Americans?

Is there proof that terrorists plans have been spoiled because of it?

The jury is back out.

You act like they are monitoring your aunt Lucy. They are monitoring calls from KNOWN terrorists or call coming to/ from terrorist supporting countries. Is aunt Lucy calling Pakistan?

I believe in right to privacy as much as anyone. When your being told your being monitored before you call Iran, is really a breech of privacy? I mean you know they are listening, So write a letter,

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Postby Chris Bishop » Sat Jun 21, 2008 7:30 am

How do you really know!!! :eek:
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Postby dudejcb » Sat Jun 21, 2008 10:59 am

Allowing the FISA Court to work would allow whatever spying is necessary to proceed witout the possible dark side being given any oxygen. And, FISA rules have provisions so spyning post haste can happen, and then get retroactive FISA Court approval.
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Postby jaysweet3 » Sun Jun 22, 2008 7:48 am

That is some scary stuff. I get worked up when I have to fill out the ATF papers when I buy a gun. I don't want anyone to know what I have in my safe, what my wife has in her bedside table, or what I say on my telephone.

Now that we are close to having a lame duck president we will start to see all kinds of goofy stuff being proposed and passed. I can't wait to see what pardons Bush hands out.
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Postby lanthanide » Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:14 am

jrockncash...

the "security over liberty" quote...was either T. Jefferson or B. Franklin. If I had to guess I'd say Franklin, he was a much better speaker and a bit smarter.

Anyway…has anyone yet read this bill in any depth?

I would say ‘not’…by the replies to date. The bill does specify some amnesty to specific groups. I cannot see where this would be huge surprise. As much as the left tries to push us into a socialistic society, government and many private business' have a LONG history in matters of national security…pretty much since WWII. Without the offer of some ‘umbrella’ of protection, this cooperative relationship is destroyed. Aaaaaand....as much as people like to think…the government is neither omnipresent nor omnipotent.

Looking into this legislation (still very much in the rough), nowhere do I see a ‘carte blanche’ ability to “spy” on any or every facet of the citizenry. As a matter of pure fact it goes into some detail about the location/origin and volume of calls prior to any monitoring being justified. I’m sure the “bad guys” were happy to have this all laid out for them. C’mon guys…do you see the forest for the trees yet?

I guess I wonder about the priorities of the left where they strain for admonishment of call screening/monitoring of our potential enemies, yet strive to grant constitutional rights to detainees at GITMO.

Yes…such a class act. Oh, so worried about the rights "Under the Constitution" of the people that would kill us but would readily disarm the population of the constituency they were elected to represent in a ‘blink’ if they could...death to the 2nd amd.

I guess it's all about what part of the constitution is fashionable for the left to champion any given week.
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Postby LIGHT12 » Mon Jun 23, 2008 10:44 am

WOW someone read what they are talking about thats new lately.
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Postby dudejcb » Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:31 am

so, and I still don't quite get this...

if the FISA court issues or allows wiretap/eavesdropping and it can be done as rapidly as needed, why is an "umbrella"needed? the prtection is already built in.

the reason for needing the "umbrella" protection is for what then? something different?

it is amazing that many onDHS don't trust the government when it comes to the 2nd amendment or taxes or medcial care, yet when it comes to the most basic protection of privacy they are willing to submit to carte blanche in the name of (and this is a scare tactic) national security.

So if this really is an issue of national security, great! That's what the FISA system was set up for, and why it has been modified to keep up with technology and to allow the much needed quick response. So why do we need a diferent system with less oversight/control to hold possible wrongdoing at bay?

to blame this on the right or the left is just red herring. it's about the freedoms of the honest and that balances against the threat and our ability to respond.
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Postby lanthanide » Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:05 pm

1st…it’s not simple.

The ‘taps’ can be made quickly, but doesn’t insure they’ll always be batting ‘100’.

In those cases, personal information might have been compromised. I think you would agree the best way to hinder any threats in this country would be to monitor/limit their finances. Hence…the need for the umbrella.

And as far as your other rants…

I’ll go ahead and just plain say “YES”…I’m far more concerned about the government and my 2nd amendment rights than some mid-level, federal functionary peeking at my personal data. Cuz’ that’s all he’ll do if he does anything at all...’peek’. At that point he’ll discover how nauseatingly “white-bread…middle class” I am and move right along.
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Postby jaysweet3 » Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:35 pm

I want guns and privacy.
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Postby dudejcb » Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:44 pm

okay,

1st, nothing is ever that simple whihchiswhythesimple explanations cause the hair on the back of my neck to standup.

2nd, I'm sitting here (RIGHT NOW) in a meeting room at the university of illiois, chicago, talking about solving our energy issues with a bunch of smart guys from all over the ocuntry... but I'm blathering with you on DHC, instead of giving them my full attention. point is I'm a little distracted (the meeting room isn't that big and I have to pay some attention to what's going on around me)... but I still don't get your point. is it: in case they (the telecoms?) go too far so that their finances might be in jeoardy under existing law, then they won't help out. very patriotic till $$ got in the way.

So if we want them (telecoms?) to help us (even if it breaks the law) so mid-level government functionaryies (Nixon wasn't mid-level nor was any other administration or high level (think Herbert Hoover) that had lists of citizen enemies) can get fast access to our boring lives, we have to make it safe for them and their profits...? on the basis that in reality, they are making it safer for us. right?

Am I the only one getting dizzy from these intricate, delicate, circular, non-explanations?
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Postby lanthanide » Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:46 am

Ok dudejcb…

I would initially recommend that if this little tête-à-tête is too taxing for you (given your enormous work load…solving the energy crisis and all), please excuse yourself and log off. God knows the rest of us ‘simple folk’ need your utmost focus on the issues at hand. We’re all in quite a pickle…gas prices and all…please deliver us from the bonds of imported oil.

Secondly…You state that your surrounded by “bunch of smart guys from all over the ocuntry”…by the by…what is an “ocuntry”, smart guy?

Well then…it appears we have something in common. I also spend my days surrounded by fellow engineers and scientists. Do tell…what are the educational disciplines of said geniuses currently in your midst? I know several well published chemists and from the Chicago area. Perhaps I might know one or two of your “smart guys”. I do travel to the Chicago area several times a year.

But seriously…I’m pretty sure I’ve not run into you on the ‘Mensa’ web-site, and I’m pretty sure I know why…

No…after having read some of your ‘challenging’ posts I can surmise but one thing: If you’ve ever found yourself in a room surrounded by “smart guys”, You must be there to “top-off” coffee cups or to offer more cream cheese for the bagels.


To Jaysweet3...

Yup...that's what I want as well...and what we should have. Right now, however, I don't see it in the cards.

With that...we should focus on what we CAN influence…and it ain’t the wire taps…IMHO.
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Postby don taylor » Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:56 am

- Ocuntry-

Where Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi and Michele Obama live.
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Postby don taylor » Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:00 am

And if its the second amendment or FISA its about security. Personal or State or Country its about having the ability to defend ourselves with every tool possible.

Wasn't a huge hijacking thwarted in England using their version of the same laws? Solway? can you answer that?
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