Open Carry

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Postby don taylor » Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:01 pm

Instead of me having to feel like I'm a bad ass, could it just be your easily intimidated?

So I decided to tone it down for the trip out today to the Ikarian food festival. I had a hip holster filled with an all black Sigpro 2340 and extra mag. Now I have to admit I had a button down shirt on with a Cabelas T under it, but it was open. With the storms today I'm sure it spent more time over top of the gun than concealing it. Inside this festival I didn't have a single issue. I did get several stares while I fed my daughter baklava with it on my hip. After leaving I ran into a sherriffs deputy that I happen to know from highschool. The first thing he said is "Don, I can see your piece!" and I said "Hey Luke, I know, how you been?" he said "why?" I said that I'm going to try open carry. He didn't understand why I'd intentionally let everone in. He also said that open carry was something they were informed of and to be careful how they treat people. He said that it was going to take some SERIOUS getting used to. So now I have a new theory. What I'm going to do is wear it in the most comfortable way. I'm not going to make every attempt to pacify the liberals who will freak, but I'm not going to get a chromed .45 either. I think after tonight I may go back to the .38 snubbie for the summer. To be continued.....
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Postby jehler » Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:13 pm

starting to run scared already :huh:
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Postby Redline29 » Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:58 pm

mmmmmmm baklava. Reminds me the greek festival is next week.
Maybe I open carry. Now I want to test this out myself.
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Postby don taylor » Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:55 am

jehler wrote:starting to run scared already :huh:


No, not that. It just feels different at church. Did I say I was putting it my IWB holster on? I'm just not used to the idea yet. I've carried concealed for years and just having my piece out there for everyone to see is not unlike having something else exposed. You still feel vunerable in a way. Now I'm constantly thinking someone may grab it. Its difficult to make the transition.
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Postby jehler » Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:58 am

don taylor wrote:
jehler wrote:starting to run scared already :huh:


No, not that. It just feels different at church. Did I say I was putting it my IWB holster on? I'm just not used to the idea yet. I've carried concealed for years and just having my piece out there for everyone to see is not unlike having something else exposed. You still feel vunerable in a way. Now I'm constantly thinking someone may grab it. Its difficult to make the transition.
I figured that much, I just couldn't miss the opportunity to get a jab in :yes:
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Postby Preacher1011 » Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:18 am

So your buddy in the Sheriff's Dept. basically said open carry was a bad idea?
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Postby littlegray_2000 » Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:20 am

pennsyltucky wrote:reading more about the backlash toward those who open carry, you get the feeling that the right to carry and even to own guns is really being silently eroded. the way these police officers are abusing the public trust in order to disarm is pretty terrible. i am going to keep reading and researching until im confident in the rules of open carry, and from then on, ill be carrying whenever practical.


Are you trying to say that police officers purposely disarming people. I am a police officer and am greatly offended by that. I work with the public everyday and have never taken a firearm away from any one unless they were committing a crime or had an illegal weapon (sawed off shot gun). There are plenty of people who carry handguns where I work I just encourage them to do it wisely and legally. Which means I do encourage them to carry a concealed weapon if they choose to carry a gun. The reason is due to the fact if a criminal does see them and has a gun of their own they would be targeted first. I also tell them to remember that if their family is with them would they like to see their family member involved in a gun battle or even possible shot. There are numerous times were citizens who had been carry weapons have intervened and saved lives at the cost of their own (i.e. Mark Wilson in Tyler, TX..... God bless him and his family who paid the price). With all of that said just remember that if you carry a weapon it is not a matter of if you will ever use it, it is a matter of when. That even means just pulling it out on some one to stop a problem. Once that gun goes "bang" there is no way of stopping that bullet even if it strikes the intended target or the innocent person near them.
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Postby mydogearl » Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:26 am

wasnt saying that you are trying to be a badass. i dont know your lifestyle and this may be right for you. im not easily intimidated and i dont know what that had to do with anything
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Postby wackemstackem » Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:49 am

Good post littlegray :welcome: to DHC
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Postby La. Hunter » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:00 am

idahofowler wrote:
AWOTIS wrote: just remember if the bad man see's your gun hes going to shoot first then rob you, not rob you and then get shot by you.


not if i can draw faster than him.


Just remember that the action is always quicker than the reaction. If the bad guy has already made you out to be carrying a gun, he isn't going to challenge you to an old west draw in the middle of the street. He is going to wait until he catches you off guard before he makes his move.

Another thing that concerns me about open carry is that in some cases it could lead to a crime of opportunity. For instance, you are at the register paying for whatever. You have your wallet in your left hand while you are taking your money out with your right. Bad guy behind you sees that you aren't covering your weapon and decides to draw it and use it to rob you and the store. In this scenario, not only do you get robbed, but he now has your gun.

If you insist on open carry, at least carry in a level II or greater retention holster. This will make it harder for someone to quickly draw your weapon.
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Postby La. Hunter » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:08 am

I forgot to mention that you should also train in weapon retention. In Law Enforcement, this is one of the things that we have to really train on. My advice to anyone considering carrying in the open is to go find your biggest strongest buddy and have him try to take your gun from you. You can keep the gun away from them if you realize whats going on quick enough, but you have nearly took yourself out of the fight because it will usually take both hands to protect your pistol. If you have a good retention holser, the odds are in your favor. However, none of this will work if bad guy comes up from behind you and lays you out and then takes your gun.
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Postby littlegray_2000 » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:12 am

I agree with LA. Hunter. The average response time for an person that is completely relaxed is 1.5 seconds. Which means you could be disarmed and shot before you know what is happening. If you are going to OC then use a retention holster. I use one every day. If you also deceided to OC just remember that you and every one else knows you have a gun. Which means you constantly having to know who is around you, where they are at, and if those people can access your gun. You may not be the only one who knows how to take your gun out of your holster.
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Postby La. Hunter » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:22 am

littlegray_2000 wrote:If you also deceided to OC just remember that you and every one else knows you have a gun. Which means you constantly having to know who is around you, where they are at, and if those people can access your gun. You may not be the only one who knows how to take your gun out of your holster.


And everyone wonders why we are paranoid. We spend most of our shift aware that we are carrying a gun and have to really pay attention to our surroundings. When off duty and properly concealed, I don't have to worry as much about this as I do on duty.
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Postby littlegray_2000 » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:24 am

AMEN!!!!! :thumbsup:
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Postby grunt_doc » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:29 am

I'm probably going to be misunderstood, so let me be clear: I am PRO 2nd Amendment. You should be able to carry whatever you want. That being said, I don't think that everyone SHOULD carry. In my opinion, more than 1/2 the folks that do...shouldn't. Let me try to explain. There is a HUGE difference in shooting paper, and shooting people. NO matter how many rounds you fire in the 10 ring on the range, when you are in a real situation, with adrenaline going, and your environment, emotions, ect and affecting everything you are doing, you would be lucky to do half as well as you do on the range. It takes lots of training (note I didn't say practice) to be able to use a defense weapon "safely." Have you ever asked why you hear that a police officer shot a full mag, and only hit the guy once ot twice? The range ain't real. I speak from real life experience.

Like I said before, though, I agree that everyone has a right to protect their own, and to carry whatever they want to. The issue is then what do you do with that weapon. With the right, comes the responsibility to get the prpoer training in the use of that weapon. I'm not talking abou tthe 2 day familiarization course that some states require. I hope that I am making sense.

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Postby Preacher1011 » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:50 am

idahofowler wrote:
AWOTIS wrote: just remember if the bad man see's your gun hes going to shoot first then rob you, not rob you and then get shot by you.


not if i can draw faster than him.


About that. They teach you in our concealed carry class that if a man is running towards you from 20 yards he will get to you before you have chance to draw on him much less put a bullet in him. That's a pretty far way away. You might be a fast drawer, but your reaction time is what it comes down to. You have to see the problem, your nerves have to react and tell you to draw, actually draw, then pull the trigger. That takes quite a bit of time. My dad is a policeman (at the dept. I plan on going into the reserves with) and they use the retention holsters that littlegray mentioned and they are a pain in the butt. You have to swing a hoop off the holster then push a button forward to pull your gun out. That adds quite a bit of time, although with practice it's not that big of a dea. You have to remember if it hinders a criminals ability to take it from you, it also hinders your ability to draw.
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Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:13 am

Doc,

All experience shows that civilians carrying weapons are very responsible. There are always exceptions, but they do very well. By that I mean the vast majority of the time, they do not accidently shoot innocent people, they do not reach for the gun when they get in an argument over parking spaces, the vast majority of the time they use the gun in self defense they do NOT fire the weapon, and when they do shoot it is responsibly. Bottom line, there are probably millions of people without any special training, that are in fact using there weapons in a safe and responsible manner. On the very rare occassion they irresponsibly use a weapon it generally makes national news and definitely gets a heavy play in the local news. We have a lot of real life experience that refutes all of your concerns.

Personal safety doesn't come from being able to put it in the 10 ring at 40 yards. The vast majority of the personal safety comes from the ability to say to the scumbag if you escalate this any further shots are going to be coming in your direction. The vast majority of the time the scumbag is not going to care if you can hit the broadside of a barn. He just turns tail and runs like the coward he is. If that isn't enough to scare him off, then he usually runs when the shots start flying in his direction. Even if they don't hit him. Do you really think the scumbag is not going to fear for his life because he is only going to get hit with 1 out of 20 shots? It only takes one.

A large fraction of the times civilians safely use of their weapon they do not even report it to the cops because no shots were fired.

There are exceptions, but they are rare. Otherwise, I agree with you that shooting a target and shooting at a person while you fear for your life are not even close to the same thing. Good people do NOT want to shoot another human being, even when they fear for their life.That is why they are more prone to shoot too late than too early.

The reason everybody that owns a gun for self defense needs to shoot a lot is so that they can work the gun quickly without thinking about the mechanics of operating the firearm. Do you think about taking the safety off or working the action when the ducks show up over the decoys? That's what a lot of target shooting does for those that have a gun for self defense. You have to do all the basic mechanics without thinking about it. How you react when fearing for your life is something that probably can only be learned through experience and even the best military training probably falls well short, but thankfully I have never been in this circumstance and I hope I never am.

Past experience show that a vanishling small fraction of the civilians start blazing away when their is no cause to or continue after the threat has subsided. That is the only thing we need worry about. The ability to hit anything is rarely that important to your safety.
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Postby don taylor » Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:28 pm

Well that settles it. I guess I'm way off thinking that I may be able to prevent a murder or a robbery by training at the range and OC'n. It sounds to me like I should just tie it on a string and drag it behind me for the bad guys to use.

To all of you who would discourage a fellow law abiding person from carrying I say BOOOOOOOO! What Bunk! I stand a better chance as a ARMED man than I do without my gun. The Liberals Kool aid is flowing. 1/2 of us shouldn't carry? does that mean 1/2 shouldn't own? BOOOOOOOOO! You said it. Not me.

I will now ALWAYS OC. A nickel .45 it is. My goal is to make fellow hunters and law enforcement wonder if I'm one of the "good half" and I will continue my practice at the range. I use my real name here, look for me in the news.
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Postby don taylor » Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:37 pm

As far as not having the stones to shoot and hit someone, I don't have much to respond with. I assure you, there will be one or more criminals taking trips in ambulances if my family is threatened. As far as a charging attacker, I'm coming right at the threat. Bring it.

Did my buddy say it was a bad idea? No. he said he was going to get used to the idea. But being I out qualify police rifleman at local shoots, I may be the exception.
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Postby grunt_doc » Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:38 pm

Read it again. I didn't say that no one should carry. I meant that retards who got picked on in high school should carry because they have no idea what the hell to do with it. They "shouldn't." I didn't say that they didn't have the right to. Most of the people I have encountered who carry a hand gun have no clue how to use it responsibly. If you are going to carry, leard how to use it! Simply wearing a gun on your hip doesn't make to an instant billy bad ass crime fighter.

My point is this: carry all the guns you want. It's your right as an American. I'm all for it. With that right, comes responsibility.
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Postby La. Hunter » Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:17 pm

don taylor wrote:Well that settles it. I guess I'm way off thinking that I may be able to prevent a murder or a robbery by training at the range and OC'n. It sounds to me like I should just tie it on a string and drag it behind me for the bad guys to use.

To all of you who would discourage a fellow law abiding person from carrying I say BOOOOOOOO! What Bunk! I stand a better chance as a ARMED man than I do without my gun. The Liberals Kool aid is flowing. 1/2 of us shouldn't carry? does that mean 1/2 shouldn't own? BOOOOOOOOO! You said it. Not me.

I will now ALWAYS OC. A nickel .45 it is. My goal is to make fellow hunters and law enforcement wonder if I'm one of the "good half" and I will continue my practice at the range. I use my real name here, look for me in the news.


Don,

Don't get me wrong, I wish you luck in you being able to open carry, however I do think that you need to be aware of the ramifications involved with OC. I believe that you have thought this out, but just want to point out things that you may not have considered. My biggest concern is weapon retention. I don't know anything about you as far as your physical abilities, so I don't know if you are capable of stopping someone from taking your gun and using it on you. Whether you are 4' 9" 100 lbs or 6'4" 300 lbs, you should still practice weapon retention.

As far as 1/2 of the population shouldn't carry, I can't say that I agree with this. I believe that if you are a law abiding citizen and know enough about how to handle your weapon, I believe that you should be able to carry it, openly or concealed. I just think that concealed carry is more appropriate for most people instead of OC. Let me give you an example. My wife is about 5'2" and petite. She is better with her handgun than most men that I have shot with. However I don't believe that she would be able to keep someone from taking her gun away from her if they decided to, therefore she would be better off having the gun properly concealed so that there is no indication that she is carrying. I also don't want her picked out as the first target if someone come in with guns already drawn and identifies her as being armed. My belief is that she would stand a much better chance at defending herself if she wasn't immediately viewed as a potential hostile victim.

If I wasn't in Law Enforcement, I would probably open carry more as well. The only problem is that our policy and procedure manual states that if we carry off duty, we must carry concealed unless our badge is properly displayed. I am not one that wears police style clothing when I am off duty because I don't want anyone to know that I am a cop, therefore I don't want to have to display my badge. Plus, I do feel a lot more comfortable with everyone not knowing that I am carrying.
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Postby Preacher1011 » Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:50 pm

Well since we are getting into the idocracies of certain people carrying, I've got a little pot stirring to do. When my dad went and got his CC permit there were people there qualifying with .22 pistols. I don't know about you, but that's rediculous. There's a difference between a .22 and a .40 cal pistol.

By the way La, what happened to your avatar?
Last edited by Preacher1011 on Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby mydogearl » Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:53 pm

nail on the head right there La. Hunter
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Postby La. Hunter » Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:23 pm

Preacher1011 wrote:By the way La, what happened to your avatar?


I don't recall ever having an avatar on DHC, but I may be wrong.
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Postby La. Hunter » Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:46 pm

Preacher1011 wrote:About that. They teach you in our concealed carry class that if a man is running towards you from 20 yards he will get to you before you have chance to draw on him much less put a bullet in him.


We are taught the 21 FOOT rule, not 20 yards. Not saying this isn't what they taught you, but at 20 yards it may not hold up real well in court. Here is an article about the 21 foot rule.

http://www.usadojo.com/articles/21-feet-valid.htm

This article was taken from a martial arts sight, but it was copied from forcescience.
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