Support Bush or Kerry?

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Did you support Bush or Kerry in 2004?

Bush
21
78%
Kerry
6
22%
 
Total votes : 27

Postby huntingdude16 » Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:56 pm

Indeed, I liked that post better. :thumbsup:

Laziness is probably a significant part, but i'm sure there is a significant portion of people that really don't like either one. I think the '92 election is a good example of what happens when people have more choice.

As for a lame president.....depends on your point of view and the topic discussed.

One might point out that at the end of the Clinton years, we had a balanced budget. That's something we could only dream about now with debt in the Trillions.

But that's a whole different topic. You see my point I think...
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Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Sep 25, 2008 7:58 am

huntingdude16 wrote:One might point out that at the end of the Clinton years, we had a balanced budget. That's something we could only dream about now with debt in the Trillions.
Conservative control of congress was the reason. If you were older, you would remember that Clinton said we would have a balanced budget after he left office. The Conservatives (real conservatives) said we can do it sooner. They actually shut down the government to force consecions on spending. Ironically, this lead to Clinton meeting a now infamous intern. Clinton said it could not be done. Yet it got done. Not his fault. He signed the laws, but they are not the laws that he wanted. They were forced upon him by Newt Gingrich, Tom Delay, and the other evil Republicans. The Conservatives left congress for a variety of reasons. A good portion of them promised to only serve a fixed time. I think 6 years max was a common promise. That means they would leave by 2000. Most stuck by their pledge. Otherwise they were going to face a read my lips election and Republicans are more likely to hold their elected officials feet to the fire.

Clinton proposed a huge expansion of health care in his first term. This would have guaranteed deficits forever. It failed.

Here is an example of what I am talking about.

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1996/news/9611/12/1clinton/index.shtml

McCurry says the President called the meeting to "generate momentum" for the 1998 fiscal year budget process, but says the meeting is not "a budget negotiating session." McCurry says the president wants to feel out where the leadership is when it comes to making a deal to balance the budget by 2002.


There were many factors that contributed. Clinton didn't help, the conservative republicans definitely did. A very large fraction of the credit for the balanced budget also goes to the internet bubble, which greatly enhanced revenues to the government. At the end of the Clinton years, the economy went through a small recession as a result of the bursting internet bubble. This killed the balanced budget.
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Postby huntingdude16 » Fri Sep 26, 2008 10:09 pm

Havnt we had a conservative congress also under Bush? At least until the last congressional elections?
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Postby pennsyltucky » Sat Sep 27, 2008 6:48 am

i dont think we've had a "conservative" congress for as long as ive been alive :no: republican, yes...
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Postby SpinnerMan » Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:22 am

huntingdude16 wrote:Havnt we had a conservative congress also under Bush? At least until the last congressional elections?
Conservative does not equal Republican. Even Bush ran as a "compassionate" conservative. Which I now realize means traditional southern Democrat. They were very conservative socially, very conservative internationally, but liberal on spending policies. I lived in the south a good chunk of my adult life. Initially I voted about 50/50 Dem/Rep. However, the liberals have run the conservatives out of the Democratic party. I explained what happened to the Conservatives in the Republican Party.

Conservatives Republicans do not like government. It's no fun if you aren't spending other people's money or telling them what to do. This makes it tough to recruit them to run for office. Additionally, it would be a huge pay cut in most cases and that is hard to justify as being good for your family. If I were elected to the state legislature in Illinois, I wouldn't be able to pay my bills. Most people are conservative, just getting good people to run is nearly impossible. We end up with a bunch of nutjobs and phonies.
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Postby huntingdude16 » Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:16 pm

....so did the republicans in congress suddenly become un-conservative when Bush was elected?
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Postby pennsyltucky » Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:09 pm

i think this is the problem with the american public. no one really follows politics enuf to see the differences between candidates.

congress was never "conservative" under bush. nor was it very conservative under clinton. conservative is an adjective that describes a position on an issue, not a partisan position. when you are far to the left, everything on the right may "look" conservative to you, but thats only a function of your own perspective. just as most democrats look pretty liberal to me, even tho some arent (although the number of true conservative democrats sure is dropping)
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Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:48 am

huntingdude16 wrote:....so did the republicans in congress suddenly become un-conservative when Bush was elected?


pennsyltucky described it pretty well. Just to expand on what he said.

Conservative does not equal republican

All Republicans are not conservatives. There are republicans that would be categorized as liberal, moderate, and conservative. Same is true for the Democrats. There are not bright lines between them because there are different issues and some are conservative on some issues and liberal on others.

Fiscal conservatives - control spending / balanced budget / low tax rates

Social conservatives - lots of issues, but general defined by opinion on abortion.

Religious conservative - different than a social conservative. Tends to support more morals legislation.

Foreign policy conservative - My definition. Strong military. We are the superpower and if we let the world rot, it will come back to bite us on the ass. However, there are isolationists that claim to be the true conservatives on this issues.

Constitutional conservatives - the constitution and all laws mean what they meant the day they were passed into law. Judges should try to interpret the law in that manner. Abhor judicial activism.

So as you can see, you can be a mix of conservative on some issues and liberal on others. There is also no uniform definition and there is a lot of I'm the true conservative arguments. On average most Americans are conservative, especially compared with "old Europe" The conservative parties in England, France, Italy, Spain, etc., are far to the left of average Americans.

Some of these issue are almost circular. If you move to the extreme left and extreme right, they often meet. For example, the far left and the far right both believe drugs should be legal. The reasoning is just different.

There are groups that define what the conservative or liberal position is and then give each member of Congress a rating. Obama is the most liberal member (or very close depending on what period you talk about it) of the Senate. McCain is a solid Conserative, but not close to the most Conservative. Nobody scores a 100% liberal or conservative over a several year period.

When the Republicans took control of both houses of Congress in 1994. The Freshman (1st time in Congress) Republicans all had very high Conservative ratings, especially fiscally. They elected Republican leadership that was very conservative. This is what contributed in large part to balancing the budget. However, by the time Bush took offices many of these conservatives had left (some by choice and some not) and this trend continued through Bush's Presidency. The current Republicans in congress contain a lot of liberals (referred to as RINOs - Republicans In Name Only) a lot of moderates and far less conservatives.

The same trend has happened in the Democrats, except they started to the left of the Republicans and have moved to the hard left. This has lead to a Congress that spends like a drunken sailor. The problem is the sailor is spend his money and the politicians are also spending the sailor's money as well as yours and mine and not their own.

One more thing. Generally speaking, if you really look into an issue and understand it. You will NEVER be a moderate. You will either have the "hard right" or "hard left" opinion because the right answer is never a compromise. I hold mostly hard right opinions. I also hold a few hard left positions. However, if I don't have an opinion I hang around the right of center because I think that is the least likely way for the government to screw it up too badly.
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