Community Organizing?

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Community Organizing?

Postby SpinnerMan » Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:13 am

This is why we mock Obama's community organizing on the south side of Chicago. Did he really think a $100k garden was the best use of state resources to help reduce poverty?

http://www.suntimes.com/news/watchdogs/1184049,CST-NWS-watchdog25.article

For you guys that have never lived around a city or really paid attention to politics, this is why many cities have large chunks that are cess pools. They talk a good game, but virtually all of the money is spent on stupid pet projects for connected people.

Crime is the biggest problem. No educational standards is the 2nd biggest problem. Dirty vacant lots is so far down the line that it is insane to spend any money on them. Why are they vacant? Because no investor is going to build anything on them while it is a cess pool.
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Postby Rat Creek » Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:11 am

This is very good article because describes what community organizing is all about. In my experience, and I work for a company that provides services to the State of Illinois and many others, community organizers and their groups are all about political power and seizing government money through grants and projects, though little or no work actually occurs.

Recently in Illinois, I was at an IL State Board of Education meeting and while I won’t get into the issue at hand, there were no fewer than eight community organizers or groups on hand to weigh in the issue. I had never heard of a single one of them before, but all received grant money to do whatever they do.

And ALL appeared to be very close friends and after the meeting, the conversation turned to politics and there was no doubt they were all part of the machine. The machine that controls elections so that their minions can give them government grant money. It is very insidious.
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Postby dudejcb » Fri Sep 26, 2008 4:18 pm

I don't think this is what comunity organizing is about. This is what fraud is. Mr. Smith is a fraud.

Unfortunately there are a lot of grants like this, but not just in cities. Dept. of Ag grants are notorius for giving money away to farmers and farm "interests." Most grants are not policed very well, as that would require more manpower and travel funding for oversight.

we apply for and get US DOE grants for energy efficiency work. when you make a grant proposal, and it is awarded, the grant then becomes a contract. Every grant has "deliverables" that we are required to produce and provide evidence of such.

I guess the point here is... don't paint everyone with a broad brush even though there are crooks in the world. Mr. Smith is a crook milking the good intentions of the system. There is no shortage of crooks. look at the Wall street implosion. more crooks.
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Postby rman114 » Sat Sep 27, 2008 8:28 pm

This has nothing to do with community organizing because Obama was a state senator when this happened.

Not much to say about the article though, I'm glad they have a probe. they should find out what happened here.
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Postby ctbduck » Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:13 am

If you all have forgotten, or just never knew... jesus was a community organizer, martin luther king jr. was a community organizer, mother teresa was a community organizer. I could go on.
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Postby pennsyltucky » Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:09 pm

karl marx was THE community organizer, adolf hitler was a community organizer, as was fidel castro, chairman mao, and I could go on also :no: you are quite naive to think obama is in the company of mother teresa, and jesus :rofl: you must be bursting at the seams from all that kool-aide :rofl:

BTW, 2 out of the 3 you mentioned were executed.... doesnt sound like a group id like to belong to :rofl:
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Postby DUCKCUTR » Sun Sep 28, 2008 2:28 pm

ctbduck wrote:If you all have forgotten, or just never knew... jesus was a community organizer, martin luther king jr. was a community organizer, mother teresa was a community organizer. I could go on.

Yes, so we've heard:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmnbTBCktoM
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Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:14 am

dudejcb wrote:I don't think this is what comunity organizing is about.
That is the difference between your idealist views and what happens in practice. This IS what community organizing is in practice.

rman114 wrote:This has nothing to do with community organizing because Obama was a state senator when this happened.
:huh:

Read what I said more carefully. I did not say this had anything to do with Obama' community organizing. I said this is an example of why we mock what Obama did as a community organizer. This is stereotypical "community organizing" nonsense. That's what they do for the most part, especially if they have political ambitions or just want to game the system. There is a book or article (couldn't find it) that talked about the specifics of Obama's organizing. Bottomline there was no significant accomplishment or lasting improvement in the community. Did you every here Obama talk about his great accomplishments as a community organizer :no: There never will be with Obama's ideas on what should be done. It's like the practical definition of insanity "doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome" They have and continue to follow Obama's model on the southside of Chicago and all other cesspools in the nation and they can't understand why the outcome is always the same.

ctbduck wrote:If you all have forgotten, or just never knew... jesus was a community organizer, martin luther king jr. was a community organizer, mother teresa was a community organizer.
Jesus was NOT a community organizer. Other than being the messiah, he was a teacher and a philosopher. He never did anything that would be considered community organizing.

Martin Luther King Jr. was more of a teacher and philospher, but some of what he did would fall into the community organizing. Although political activist would probably be more apt.

Mother Teresa - probably would fall into that category. Mainly just a deeply caring and loving person that helped the most desperate in the world. However, she didn't go to the government to get her resources.
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Postby Rat Creek » Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:30 am

And Pontius Pilot was a governor, just like Sarah Palin. :rofl: Please, put down the DNC playbook for a minute and engage your brain.

This isn’t about the criminals on Wall Street either. Different topic.

As Spinner said, this is what community organizing is all about. Some grants, though few, are held accountable. Most are held accountable for their intentions only. If they try to accomplish their goal, that is usually enough, and besides, there is always another government grant if you have all the right minions in place to deliver them.
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Postby dudejcb » Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:35 pm

pennsyltucky wrote:karl marx was THE community organizer, adolf hitler was a community organizer, as was fidel castro, chairman mao, and I could go on also :no: you are quite naive to think obama is in the company of mother teresa, and jesus :rofl: you must be bursting at the seams from all that kool-aide :rofl:

BTW, 2 out of the 3 you mentioned were executed.... doesn't sound like a group id like to belong to :rofl:

Karl Marx was a writer, not an organizer to any degree. Hitler, Castro, and Mao were politicians; Castro and Mao were also guerrilla revolutionary soldiers of the Commy variety. Mother Theresa was not a community organizer she was a community servant.

If you call martin Luther King's murder an execution, then I suppose Lincoln, the Kennedys and Sadat were also "executed." However, there is a significant difference in connotation between the two terms.

BTW: Jesus was a community organizer among other things. he taught and organized the community to see God and religion differently, and to throw out the corrupt religious leaders of the day.
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Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:48 pm

dudejcb wrote:BTW: Jesus was a community organizer among other things. he taught and organized the community to see God and religion differently, and to throw out the corrupt religious leaders of the day.
Wow. Now that is a stretch. By that definition, everybody is a community organizer. What organizations did he create? What communities did he organize? He didn't stay put long enough to organize any community. Your initial response was he was a teacher and philosopher, but now you have to defend your buddies, so you will stretch community organizer to basically include virtually every human activity. Jesus is not know for his community organizing. I'm pretty sure that was not what he hoped to be remembered for.

I'd like to sit in on some of these liberal/progressive Sunday Shools. Jesus is a community organizer. The Catholic Church wasn't always against abortion. Obama's church asks God curses America. Charity is good, but if they don't want to donate then the government should take it. Abortion is bad, but the government shouldn't impose any restrictions. Some really strange beliefs.
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Postby dudejcb » Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:53 pm

SpinnerMan wrote:
dudejcb wrote:BTW: Jesus was a community organizer among other things. he taught and organized the community to see God and religion differently, and to throw out the corrupt religious leaders of the day.
Wow. Now that is a stretch. By that definition, everybody is a community organizer. What organizations did he create? What communities did he organize? He didn't stay put long enough to organize any community. Your initial response was he was a teacher and philosopher, but now you have to defend your buddies, so you will stretch community organizer to basically include virtually every human activity. Jesus is not know for his community organizing. I'm pretty sure that was not what he hoped to be remembered for.

I'd like to sit in on some of these liberal/progressive Sunday Shools. Jesus is a community organizer. The Catholic Church wasn't always against abortion. Obama's church asks God curses America. Charity is good, but if they don't want to donate then the government should take it. Abortion is bad, but the government shouldn't impose any restrictions. Some really strange beliefs.
you're being silly and rediculously narrow in your interpretations just for the sake of confrontation.

Jesus was also a teacher, philosopher, etc. I suppose you could say he did many things. How bout you. Youy say you are an engineer then turn around and say you are a duck hunter and a fisherman! Now which is it?!
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Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Sep 29, 2008 1:56 pm

Very simple. I am a nuclear engineer. That is my life's work. I had a few jobs along the way, and you could say that is what I was at one point, but you must be certain of the context. I have a number of hobbies as well, but identifying people by their hobbies or things the just happened to do along the way can be misleading. I don't hunt or fish for a living, so you must be careful of the context in which you describe me as a duck hunter.

In the context of comparing Obama and Jesus as both having been community organizers is misleading at best. It was Obama's full time job that he puts on his resume. Community organizing was not Jesus's full time job or anything he focussed on at any point in his life. I heard he was also a winemaker, fisherman, baker, doctor, etc. You could fairly say he was a carpenter, because that is what his earthly father did and I'm sure he actual did as a yute. The man did it all. It's like he was divine or something.
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Postby dudejcb » Mon Sep 29, 2008 2:08 pm

hmmm. so you define yourself by your profession? I personally define myself by who I am as a person and as a man. I happen to work as an engineer now and then, but I've done many things.

first and foremeost, I'm a father, husband, and socially responsible person who loves dogs, hunting, fishing, skiing and other interesting or entertaining things. Oh yeah, HUGE Packer fan. Grew up in Green Bay (born in northern Wisconsin) and we had season ticket to lambeau during the Lombardi era. also spent time living and working on a farm. I'm also loyal.
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Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Sep 29, 2008 2:19 pm

So you agree, Jesus was not a community organizer.

He was the Messiah.

I'm pretty sure that's how Obama sees himself as well.
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Postby GroundSwatter » Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:04 pm

dudejcb wrote:
BTW: Jesus was a community organizer among other things. he taught and organized the community to see God and religion differently, and to throw out the corrupt religious leaders of the day.

Wow. Now that is a stretch. By that definition, everybody is a community organizer. What organizations did he create?


Christianity? Which without that you wouldn't have several other sub-organizations (you may call them denominations).

I also agree with dudejcb, my job doesn't define who I am, and I do have an engineering related job. Granted, I spend 8+ hours a day, 5 days a week, sometimes 6, doing my Job, but I spend more time sleeping in any given week and I don't define myself as a sleeper.

If you don't want to label yourself as a "duck Hunter" or a "Fisherman," then just call yourself an outdoorsman.
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Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:28 pm

GroundSwatter,

You missed the point. Obama was making a big deal out of his "community organizing" and then the Republicans started making fun of him for it. The reason being because in practice and what Obama did is what I described in the original post of this thread.

So in order to defend Obama, some idiot said Jesus was a community organizer and Pontius Pilot was a Governor. I guess they thought this was some brilliant way to make Obama look like the Messiah and Governor Palin like a Murderer.

However, no rational person would ever describe Jesus as a "community organizer" in the sense that this label is applied to what people do, especially what community organizers do on the southside of Chicago.

If somebody asks you, "So what do you do?" Virtually everybody will answer that question by their job.

If somebody that knew you, said whose GroundSwatter. The short anser they give would probably be your job.

Obama would have answered the question that way when he first joined the Chicago machine. That never would have been the answer to that question at any point in Jesus's life on earth.

Dude originally agreed with me then decided it was better to defend this stupid characterization of Christ. The I don't identify myself ... is just a red herring to get off topic.

http://www.duckhuntingchat.com/viewtopic.php?t=70627&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=50
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Postby SpinnerMan » Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:57 am

More on what "community organizers" do in the real world.

This is a good article and worth reading all three pages.
http://www.nypost.com/seven/09292008/postopinion/opedcolumnists/os_dangerous_pals_131216.htm?&page=1

THE seeds of today's financial meltdown lie in the Commu nity Reinvestment Act - a law passed in 1977 and made riskier by unwise amendments and regulatory rulings in later decades.

CRA was meant to encourage banks to make loans to high-risk borrowers, often minorities living in unstable neighborhoods. That has provided an opening to radical groups like ACORN (the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now) to abuse the law by forcing banks to make hundreds of millions of dollars in "subprime" loans to often uncreditworthy poor and minority customers.

Any bank that wants to expand or merge with another has to show it has complied with CRA - and approval can be held up by complaints filed by groups like ACORN


Two points.

ACORN is probably going to get millions from the current bailout. Why?

This is more rule by lawyers and intimidation.

By September 1992, The Chicago Tribune was describing Talbott's program as "affirma- tive-action lending" and ACORN was issuing fact sheets bragging about relaxations of credit standards that it had won on behalf of minorities.
How'd that affirmative action lending work out for us?

What made this program different from others, the paper added, was the participation of Fannie Mae - which had agreed to buy up the loans. "If this pilot program works," crowed Talbott, "it will send a message to the lending community that it's OK to make these kind of loans."
Yep it was "OK" to make these loans :no: (gay emoticon to indicate sarcasm)

In those years, he also conducted leadership-training seminars for ACORN's up-and-coming organizers. That is, Obama was training the army of ACORN organizers who participated in Madeline Talbott's drive against Chicago's banks.
Apparently, Obama thought this made good economic sense. Glad he has the judgment to be President :thumbsdown: We see it did change things. I don't think this is the change most people believe in.
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Postby GroundSwatter » Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:56 am

Spinnerman

I agree comparing Obama and Jesus to one another is very short cited. However I do feel that Jesus was a community organizer amongst other things. His influence has lasted over 2000 years and I doubt Obama's influence as a community organizer or otherwise will be remembered for much longer than this election.

Obama, had the title of community organizer in a job, however I do agree that, I fail to see how those experiences will make him a "great president" as the article is absolutely right. Its a fluff job where they fight for grants, and all it results in is a park or a garden.

For the most Part, I feel that no matter who is elected, it will just influence which lobbyist organizations get more say in what happens. Lets face it, thats who they really listen to, as its the people that fund their campaigns and their parties. At least conservative members listen to organizations like the NRA and Ducks Unlimited. Unfortunately organizations like PETA lobby just as hard.

Can obama affect taxes, the deficit, and civil rights, sure, but bills have to go through congress first. And most lobbyists have the direct number of their favorite congressmen.

Do I think McCain and Palin are a better duo, yes but only by a slight margin. I'm actually very tired of this lesser of two evils mentality we have as voters and until the put a "none of the above" option on the ballot, I don't think either party will get the message.
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Postby SpinnerMan » Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:09 pm

Term limits. That is the only thing that will make any significant change in practice. Term limits from President to local dog catcher is the biggest single piece of legislation that could improve how government works.

Obama will raise taxes. With the current level of taxes, up is bad for the economy and will raise little revenue for the treasury. Those he tries to squeeze more money out of will simply invest in more profitable endevors, especially oversees.

The deficit will only be reduced by fiscal conservative control of the congress. I don't believe it matters who is in the White House. A president that is willing to shutdown the government with his veto pen could do the job, but that is going to kill any cooperation with Congress and approval ratings. Obama will not do that and I doubt McCain will, but he is probably the most likely guy we will ever get.

Civil right :huh: There are only two types of "civil rights" legislation that is even talked about. So-called gay rights and affirmative action lawyer employment acts.

Not to hijack my own thread. The point is Obama and the so-called community organizers are not the people that know what is needed. Rudy Guilliani improved the lives of more people in NYC than all the Obamaesq community organizer ever did and he was hated by the community organizer types.
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