Joe the Plumber

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Joe the Plumber

Postby Tom Phillips* » Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:23 am

MCCAIN: No. I would like to mention that a couple days ago Senator Obama was out in Ohio and he had an encounter with a guy who's a plumber, his name is Joe Wurzelbacher.
Joe wants to buy the business that he has been in for all of these years, worked 10, 12 hours a day. And he wanted to buy the business but he looked at your tax plan and he saw that he was going to pay much higher taxes.
You were going to put him in a higher tax bracket which was going to increase his taxes, which was going to cause him not to be able to employ people, which Joe was trying to realize the American dream.
Now Senator Obama talks about the very, very rich. Joe, I want to tell you, I'll not only help you buy that business that you worked your whole life for and be able -- and I'll keep your taxes low and I'll provide available and affordable health care for you and your employees.
And I will not have -- I will not stand for a tax increase on small business income. Fifty percent of small business income taxes are paid by small businesses. That's 16 million jobs in America. And what you want to do to Joe the plumber and millions more like him is have their taxes increased and not be able to realize the American dream of owning their own business.

SCHIEFFER: Is that what you want to do?

MCCAIN: That's what Joe believes.

OBAMA: He has been watching ads of Senator McCain's. Let me tell you what I'm actually going to do. I think tax policy is a major difference between Senator McCain and myself. And we both want to cut taxes, the difference is who we want to cut taxes for.
Now, Senator McCain, the centerpiece of his economic proposal is to provide $200 billion in additional tax breaks to some of the wealthiest corporations in America. Exxon Mobil, and other oil companies, for example, would get an additional $4 billion in tax breaks.
What I've said is I want to provide a tax cut for 95 percent of working Americans, 95 percent. If you make more -- if you make less than a quarter million dollars a year, then you will not see your income tax go up, your capital gains tax go up, your payroll tax. Not one dime. And 95 percent of working families, 95 percent of you out there, will get a tax cut. In fact, independent studies have looked at our respective plans and have concluded that I provide three times the amount of tax relief to middle-class families than Senator McCain does.

OBAMA: Now, the conversation I had with Joe the plumber, what I essentially said to him was, "Five years ago, when you were in a position to buy your business, you needed a tax cut then."
And what I want to do is to make sure that the plumber, the nurse, the firefighter, the teacher, the young entrepreneur who doesn't yet have money, I want to give them a tax break now. And that requires us to make some important choices.
The last point I'll make about small businesses. Not only do 98 percent of small businesses make less than $250,000, but I also want to give them additional tax breaks, because they are the drivers of the economy. They produce the most jobs.

MCCAIN: You know, when Senator Obama ended up his conversation with Joe the plumber -- we need to spread the wealth around. In other words, we're going to take Joe's money, give it to Senator Obama, and let him spread the wealth around.
I want Joe the plumber to spread that wealth around. You told him you wanted to spread the wealth around.
The whole premise behind Senator Obama's plans are class warfare, let's spread the wealth around. I want small businesses -- and by the way, the small businesses that we're talking about would receive an increase in their taxes right now.
Who -- why would you want to increase anybody's taxes right now? Why would you want to do that, anyone, anyone in America, when we have such a tough time, when these small business people, like Joe the plumber, are going to create jobs, unless you take that money from him and spread the wealth around.
I'm not going to...

OBAMA: OK. Can I...

MCCAIN: We're not going to do that in my administration.

OBAMA: If I can answer the question. Number one, I want to cut taxes for 95 percent of Americans. Now, it is true that my friend and supporter, Warren Buffett, for example, could afford to pay a little more in taxes in order...

MCCAIN: We're talking about Joe the plumber.

OBAMA: ... in order to give -- in order to give additional tax cuts to Joe the plumber before he was at the point where he could make $250,000.
Then Exxon Mobil, which made $12 billion, record profits, over the last several quarters, they can afford to pay a little more so that ordinary families who are hurting out there -- they're trying to figure out how they're going to afford food, how they're going to save for their kids' college education, they need a break.
So, look, nobody likes taxes. I would prefer that none of us had to pay taxes, including myself. But ultimately, we've got to pay for the core investments that make this economy strong and somebody's got to do it.

MCCAIN: Nobody likes taxes. Let's not raise anybody's taxes. OK?

OBAMA: Well, I don't mind paying a little more.

MCCAIN: The fact is that businesses in America today are paying the second highest tax rate of anywhere in the world. Our tax rate for business in America is 35 percent. Ireland, it's 11 percent.
Where are companies going to go where they can create jobs and where they can do best in business?
We need to cut the business tax rate in America. We need to encourage business.
Now, of all times in America, we need to cut people's taxes. We need to encourage business, create jobs, not spread the wealth around.

[on health care. further on in the debate]

MCCAIN: Well, it is a terribly painful situation for Americans. They're seeing their premiums, their co-pays go up. Forty-seven million Americans are without health insurance in America today.
And it really is the cost, the escalating costs of health care that are inflicting such pain on working families and people across this country. And I am convinced we need to do a lot of things.
We need to put health care records online. The V.A. does that. That will -- that will reduce costs. We need to have more community health centers. We need to have walk-in clinics.
The rise of obesity amongst young Americans is one of the most alarming statistics that there is. We should have physical fitness programs and nutrition programs in schools. Every parent should know what's going on there.
We -- we need to have -- we need to have employers reward employees who join health clubs and practice wellness and fitness.
But I want to give every American family a $5,000 refundable tax credit. Take it and get anywhere in America the health care that you wish.
Now, my old buddy, Joe, Joe the plumber, is out there. Now, Joe, Senator Obama's plan, if you're a small business and you are able -- and your -- the guy that sells to you will not have his capital gains tax increase, which Senator Obama wants, if you're out there, my friend, and you've got employees, and you've got kids, if you don't get -- adopt the health care plan that Senator Obama mandates, he's going to fine you.

MCCAIN: Now, Senator Obama, I'd like -- still like to know what that fine is going to be, and I don't think that Joe right now wants to pay a fine when he is seeing such difficult times in America's economy.
Senator Obama wants to set up health care bureaucracies, take over the health care of America through -- as he said, his object is a single payer system.
If you like that, you'll love Canada and England. So the point is...

SCHIEFFER: So that's your objective?

OBAMA: It is not and I didn't describe it...

MCCAIN: No, you stated it.

OBAMA: I just...

MCCAIN: Excuse me.

OBAMA: I just described what my plan is. And I'm happy to talk to you, Joe, too, if you're out there. Here's your fine -- zero. You won't pay a fine, because...

MCCAIN: Zero?

OBAMA: Zero, because as I said in our last debate and I'll repeat, John, I exempt small businesses from the requirement for large businesses that can afford to provide health care to their employees, but are not doing it.
I exempt small businesses from having to pay into a kitty. But large businesses that can afford it, we've got a choice. Either they provide health insurance to their employees or somebody has to.
Right now, what happens is those employees get dumped into either the Medicaid system, which taxpayers pick up, or they're going to the emergency room for uncompensated care, which everybody picks up in their premiums.
The average family is paying an additional $900 a year in higher premiums because of the uninsured.
So here's what we do. We exempt small businesses. In fact, what, Joe, if you want to do the right thing with your employees and you want to provide them health insurance, we'll give you a 50 percent credit so that you will actually be able to afford it.
If you don't have health insurance or you want to buy into a group plan, you will be able to buy into the plan that I just described.
Now, what we haven't talked about is Senator McCain's plan. He says he's going to give you all a $5,000 tax credit. That sounds pretty good. And you can go out and buy your own insurance.
Here's the problem -- that for about 20 million people, you may find yourselves no longer having employer-based health insurance. This is because younger people might be able to get health insurance for $5,000, young and healthy folks.
Older folks, let's healthy folks, what's going to end up happening is that you're going to be the only ones left in your employer-based system, your employers won't be able to afford it.
And once you're out on your own with this $5,000 credit, Senator McCain, for the first time, is going to be taxing the health care benefits that you have from your employer.
And this is your plan, John. For the first time in history, you will be taxing people's health care benefits.
By the way, the average policy costs about $12,000. So if you've got $5,000 and it's going to cost you $12,000, that's a loss for you.
Last point about Senator McCain's plan is that insurers right now, the main restrictions on what they do is primarily state law and, under Senator McCain's plan, those rules would be stripped away and you would start seeing a lot more insurance companies cherry-picking and excluding people from coverage.
That, I think, is a mistake and I think that this is a fundamental difference in our campaign and how we would approach health care.

SCHIEFFER: What about that?

MCCAIN: Hey, Joe, you're rich, congratulations, because what Joe wanted to do was buy the business that he's been working for 10-12 hours a day, seven days a week, and you said that you wanted to spread the wealth, but -- in other words, take Joe's money and then you decide what to do with it.
Now, Joe, you're rich, congratulations, and you will then fall into the category where you'll have to pay a fine if you don't provide health insurance that Senator Obama mandates, not the kind that you think is best for your family, your children, your employees, but the kind that he mandates for you.

That's big government at its best. Now, 95 percent of the people in America will receive more money under my plan because they will receive not only their present benefits, which may be taxed, which will be taxed, but then you add $5,000 onto it, except for those people who have the gold-plated Cadillac insurance policies that have to do with cosmetic surgery and transplants and all of those kinds of things.
And the good thing about this is they'll be able to go across America. The average cost of a health care insurance plan in America today is $5,800. I'm going to give them $5,000 to take with them wherever they want to go, and this will give them affordability.
This will give them availability. This will give them a chance to choose their own futures, not have Senator Obama and government decide that for them.
This really gets down to the fundamental difference in our philosophies. If you notice that in all of this proposal, Senator -- government wants -- Senator Obama wants government to do the job.
Senator Obama wants government to do the job. I want, Joe, you to do the job.

MCCAIN: I want to leave money in your pocket. I want you to be able to choose the health care for you and your family. That's what I'm all about. And we've got too much government and too much spending and the government is -- the size of government has grown by 40 percent in the last eight years.
We can't afford that in the next eight years and Senator Obama, with the Democrats in charge of Congress, things have gotten worse. Have you noticed, they've been in charge the last two years.

SCHIEFFER: All right. A short response.

OBAMA: Very briefly. You all just heard my plan. If you've got an employer-based health care plan, you keep it. Now, under Senator McCain's plan there is a strong risk that people would lose their employer-based health care.
That's the choice you'll have is having your employer no longer provide you health care. And don't take my word for it. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce, which generally doesn't support a lot of Democrats, said that this plan could lead to the unraveling of the employer-based health care system.
All I want to do, if you've already got health care, is lower your costs. That includes you, Joe.
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Postby ctbduck » Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:53 am

You mean joe the plumber the unlicensed, unemloyed, owes back taxes, and just recently moved out of his parents house guy? Silly desperate republicans. :rofl:
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Postby Pacific Fisher » Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:22 am

The same Joe the plumber who would actually get a tax break under the Obama economic plan.

What a stupid move by McCain to use "Joe the plumber" as any sort of example that supports his economic plan.
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Postby jaysweet3 » Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:36 pm

Isn't it amazing how much we know about this man "Joe". We know more about this man than we do about a Presidential Candidate. When the media doesn't like someone it goes after them. When it likes another it gives them a free pass.
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Postby GroundSwatter » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:51 am

Define Media Bias:

When one candidate is linked to a known terrorist, nothing happens.

When one candidate makes reference to a plumber, the world camps out in his front lawn.
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Postby ctbduck » Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:15 am

Mccain actually said his name 31 times during the last debate. So blame him for all the media people in his front yard.
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Postby Rat Creek » Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:35 am

ctbduck wrote:You mean joe the plumber the unlicensed, unemloyed, owes back taxes, and just recently moved out of his parents house guy? Silly desperate republicans. :rofl:


Yes. This is the same guy. He never named himself Joe the Plumber. The media did. He works for a plumbing company and wants to purchase the company in order to improve his lot in life and to employ people. Yes, that makes him the enemy.

And because he is not an asset to Obama and the media, he must be destroyed.

Whether he is licensed or a member of the union (Obama supporters) has nothing to do with it. My neighbor owns a HVAC and plumbing business. He runs the business. Because he doesn’t make the house calls, he doesn’t need a plumbers or HVAC certification AND he isn't in the union.

Please tell me you aren’t this naïve and that you are just a political hack playing along with your party.

This is where the left wing smear machine goes when someone needs to be taken out.
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Postby GroundSwatter » Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:42 am

ctbduck wrote:Mccain actually said his name 31 times during the last debate. So blame him for all the media people in his front yard.


So how many times has Hillary and now McCain linked Obama to Ayers. Where are the people busting down his front door?

How many times has Obama's naturalized citizenship come up on any news network.

If your a republican candidate you have to come out Squeaky Clean, there can't be any skeleton's in your closet, otherwise the media will eat you alive. If you're a dem, then you could have been a terrorist druggie half your life and it will rarely get mentioned.
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Postby dudejcb » Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:04 pm

GroundSwatter wrote:Define Media Bias:

When one candidate is linked to a known terrorist, nothing happens.

When one candidate makes reference to a plumber, the world camps out in his front lawn.

if you continue to think Obama is "linked" to a terrorist, you might be a redneck fool.

If you think the media, as a whole, has a bias, you might be a paranoid redneck fool.

There are certain media outlets that do have biases and most intelligent people are able to tell them apart from the real media that bangs either side when it gets goofy. But to make it easy for you I'll just tell you who the biased ones are... anyone or anything linked to Rupert Murdock! Air America is biased. As are the radio networks that carry Rush and his merry band of right wing nit wits.

We should reinstate the fairness doctrine and get away from spin media altogether. Maybe the D's will do that if they win big.
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Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:50 pm

There is no doubt that Obama is "linked" to a known terrorist. What is the nature of that link? Ayers may not be supporting bombings any more, but he is still very much a radical. Reverend Wright is a radical. There are a lot of radicals in the Obama circle. Your a fool if you have no intellectual curiousity in how much of this has rubbed off on "spread the wealth" Obama.

Besides Obama is an ignorant fool and a liar, but he sure talks perty.

More Obama stupidity that the One said so eloquently.

Obama Is Wrong About Colombia
Labor unions are much safer under
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122445952046648609.html
Remember how Obama ripped on the union members being murdered in Colombia. Clearly a thought that wasn't put in his head by one of his radical friends. Sounded good, but it was complete lie.
from 2002 to 2007 the number of murdered Colombian union members dropped by almost 87%.


Obviously, this doesn't reflect Obama's radical leftist bias :no: But who cares, he going to change the world. Which is fine, if he would just leave our country alone. We don't need a transformational figure, because we just need a tune up and some touch ups here and there and not a major overhaul. Even with a downturn, we still have higher income and lower unemployment then Europe generally does even in good times.
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Postby dudejcb » Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:38 pm

hey. "spread the wealth" and "concentrate the wealth" are not new phenomena.

I'm waiting for FOX to come up with the "radical link" evidence that the rest of the media will verify. So far, nada. This urban legend boogey man mumbo jumbo that Obama is a terrorist in sheep's clothing is just that...urban legend boogey man mumbo jumbo that Obama is a terrorist in sheep's clothing Even Powell said that was a redd herring.

I knew some dufuses (or is it dufi?) in the past. does the fact that I still talk to them when the occassion arises mean that I too am a dufi by association? Don't answer!
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Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:24 pm

Nobody said he is a terrorist. You miss the point completely. We are questioning the character of a person that would socialize and have a working relationship with people like Ayers and his wife. It was a hell of a lot more (we don't know exactly how much more) than talking once in awhile. They were terrorists and they have not had a change of heart. Just a change of tactics. They have never condemned their own actions, as you well know, Ayers ironically on 9/11/01 said he probably should have done more.

Have you read any of the ideas of Ayers on education? Obama worked on a foundation with Ayers to "help" education. Does Obama share these ideas? Was this a big bone of contention or did Obama agree?

I know you don't care, but this really is a serious issue. It is people like Ayers that are leading the education system in this country down the toilet. Insanely high per capita expenditures and nothing to show for it with large numbers of kids "graduating" with high overinflated self esteem and a 3rd grade education. And we wonder why they act like spoiled children?
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Postby dudejcb » Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:35 pm

I'm not an Ayers fan. For whatever reason the Annenberg foundation invited Ayers and Obama, and some others, to be on the philanthropic board of directors.

I work with, meet, and sometimes do alittle socializing with people I don't really know that well. i don't do background checks and I am not responsible for whatever it is they may have said, thoguht, or done... that's on them, not me.

I give Obama the same credit. I have not heard how long he was on the Board that Ayers served on. I did hear that when Obama first ran for the leg Ayers held a meeting for obama at his home to get the effort started... or someting like that. Did Obama know about Ayers past and condone it? I don't know. I will leave the investigative work up to invetigators and when I hear or see someting that appears credible I'll change my thinking. In the meantime I will assume he's innocent.
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Postby GroundSwatter » Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:01 pm

I will leave the investigative work up to invetigators and when I hear or see someting that appears credible I'll change my thinking. In the meantime I will assume he's innocent.


Such the double standard, but if someone came up questionable for McCain, or heaven forbid Palin, oh wait we have already seen the media beat that dead horse and squeeze as much blood from that rock as we can. We'll investigate Palin's family tree and find out what side her ancestor's were on during the revolutionary war(ok exageration), but Obama, who may not have been born in the US, and is associated with known terrorists, and for sure associated with radicals, lets not go down that rabbit hole.

:thumbsup:
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Postby SpinnerMan » Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:06 pm

You won't hear anything "credible" until after the election and then it will be "old" news. Isn't that how it works?

http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=64
On December 21, 1997, Barack Obama wrote a short review of William Ayers’ book

Just a few weeks before this review was published in the Chicago Tribune, Obama and Ayers appeared together on a panel about juvenile justice organized by Michelle Obama on November 20, 1997:


Another "investigator" notes that Ayers references Obama in his book at around the same time.
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Postby GroundSwatter » Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:10 pm

If you think the media, as a whole, has a bias, you might be a paranoid redneck fool.


BTW, I may be a paranoid redneck fool, but its not because I think the media is biased. Just turn on CNN or MSNBC. If you think those stations don't lean towards the liberals, than you need to get that haze out of your eyes and rid yourself of your ignorance.
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Postby Brydog » Mon Oct 20, 2008 6:48 pm

GroundSwatter wrote:
If you think the media, as a whole, has a bias, you might be a paranoid redneck fool.


BTW, I may be a paranoid redneck fool, but its not because I think the media is biased. Just turn on CNN or MSNBC. If you think those stations don't lean towards the liberals, than you need to get that haze out of your eyes and rid yourself of your ignorance.


Now, Now,,, Don't go gettin' your panties all in a twist because your favorite Retardlican is having his ass handed to him by an inexperienced Black Senator. :tongue:
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Postby jaysweet3 » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:21 pm

GroundSwatter wrote:
If you think the media, as a whole, has a bias, you might be a paranoid redneck fool.


BTW, I may be a paranoid redneck fool, but its not because I think the media is biased. Just turn on CNN or MSNBC. If you think those stations don't lean towards the liberals, than you need to get that haze out of your eyes and rid yourself of your ignorance.


It isn't just the obvious ones that favor Obama, it is all of them. By the time this election is over the Obama campaign will have spent more than 600 million dollars on advertising. More than half a billion dollars on adds. That is a staggering ammount of money. Even if McCain was given a 100 million tomorrow there is no empty ad space to buy. The Obama machine has bought it all.

Now this may be a bit of a stretch, but do you think all of the money, just might buy you a little more influence with the news media? I am not talking bribes, just the fact that he is spending so much money with the networks. NBC, CBS, ABC, and the rest all love this guy and have given him a pass on a lot of glaring shotcommings and mistakes.
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Postby Redline29 » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:21 pm

Brydog wrote:
GroundSwatter wrote:
If you think the media, as a whole, has a bias, you might be a paranoid redneck fool.


BTW, I may be a paranoid redneck fool, but its not because I think the media is biased. Just turn on CNN or MSNBC. If you think those stations don't lean towards the liberals, than you need to get that haze out of your eyes and rid yourself of your ignorance.


Now, Now,,, Don't go gettin' your panties all in a twist because your favorite Retardlican is having his ass handed to him by an inexperienced Black Senator. :tongue:



Ummm...yeah...that is what is going on.

:lame:
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Postby Brydog » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:28 pm

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Postby DuckinFool » Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:39 pm

dudejcb wrote:hey. "spread the wealth" and "concentrate the wealth" are not new phenomena.

I'm waiting for FOX to come up with the "radical link" evidence that the rest of the media will verify. So far, nada. This urban legend boogey man mumbo jumbo that Obama is a terrorist in sheep's clothing is just that...urban legend boogey man mumbo jumbo that Obama is a terrorist in sheep's clothing Even Powell said that was a redd herring.

I knew some dufuses (or is it dufi?) in the past. does the fact that I still talk to them when the occassion arises mean that I too am a dufi by association? Don't answer!


Who gives credence to anything Powell has to say. He and Bush are liars right? :yes:
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Postby dudejcb » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:11 am

what a bunch of whining. In 2000 everyone gave Bush a pass on the debates because he wasn't expected to be that smart. Same with Palin today.

Obama has raised a lot of maney from a lot of people. does the first amendment o nly count when the donors are a relatively few large corporations and rich people?

As for Powell and Bush being liars... I think they were both lied to by Cheney, Rummy and Tennet. Bush wanted to believe the lies, Powell was a good soldier.
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Postby GroundSwatter » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:14 am

byrdog wrote:Now, Now,,, Don't go gettin' your panties all in a twist because your favorite Retardlican is having his ass handed to him by an inexperienced Black Senator.


Great counterpoint byrdog. Now that I have sufficiently untwisted my panties, I can clearly see that . . . .. Nope . .. . . Wait . . . . oh yeah CNN and MSNBC are still liberally biased.

But thanks for bringing up that point about my panties being twisted, I can now sit comfortably while watching them all slander conservatives.

So how was dove season in Michigan? Did your dog get a good workout retrieving some dove? Oh wait, left wing liberals already banned dove hunting where you live, I'm sorry. I guess that is just a great example of what happens when left wing liberals get together and come up with their own ideas and policies. But I'm sure it will work out better on the national level.

:thumbsdown:
It's a fact that 70 percent of the people who purchase heavier tackle do so with the categorical I just lost a huge snook! Einstein Hairdo.The other 30 percent have either Tarpon Fever or are sporting a hand cramped into a claw from a deepwater grouper.
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