Weird mult mark problem

[lameduck]

Here is the deal, I got my dog retrieving multiple marks that are close to each other (few feet) without switching the marks. Now I have moved on to multiple marks that are on the same line to keep challenging him, I throw the first one short and the second long. He goes to the 2nd one first like he should and on the way back he does about a 5 ft. semi circle around the 1st mark almost like he is trying to show me he knows not to pick it up. When he gets back to me everything is normal and I send him out to the first mark and he brings it back just fine.

The question is should I just let it be, or is there something I should do? I do not mind it, but I am going to hunt test him next spring and I do not know if this is acceptable.

[Pa'peake]

A switch is not acceptable in HT's and although you've done a good job of switch proofing him his semi circle shows the temptation to do so is there (especially with birds). I would whistle him on in with attitude as he neared that fall area or just give a stearn "Here" to remind him. If your training perhaps for Senior or Seasoned level work I think you will get wider seperation than an inline mark.

[lameduck]

Thanks for the help. The semi circle he does looks more like "if I get too close that bumper will shock me." I do not use very much pressure at all, and even when I have had to I have never gotten a response like this. I am assuming the more times he does it correctly the less of a problem it is going to be.

[crackerd]

Here is the deal, I got my dog retrieving multiple marks that are close to each other (few feet) without switching the marks. Now I have moved on to multiple marks that are on the same line to keep challenging him, I throw the first one short and the second long. He goes to the 2nd one first like he should and on the way back he does about a 5 ft. semi circle around the 1st mark almost like he is trying to show me he knows not to pick it up. When he gets back to me everything is normal and I send him out to the first mark and he brings it back just fine.

The question is should I just let it be, or is there something I should do? I do not mind it, but I am going to hunt test him next spring and I do not know if this is acceptable.

What's your purpose with this? To a practiced retriever training eye, it's only setting a dog up to fail and putting it in line for an unnecessary "correction" that the dog's done nothing wrong to incur. If you have multiple falls in the same area when waterfowling, the dog picks up the first bird it reaches. Handling to another bird--a blind retrieve--is another story, but that's way out front of you now. And in competition, except at the highest levels, the falls are never that tight, either by the angle or especially in actual distance apart.

I'd wager you're also self-throwing these "marks" and the dog can see them from the line. What you're doing is essentially a thrown wagon-wheel drill without developing handling skills first and giving the dog a scenario that's of no value to you whether hunting or testing. In a hunt test or field trial, the judges cannot tell you which order the birds must be picked up. If the dog "chooses" one mark over another you're intending to send it for, you go with the bird the dog wants rather than trying to dissuade it differently.

Keep throwing these "marks within a few feet of each other" and you'll have a dog fearful of making a misstep for hunting an area, and soon enough popping for help if it comes to an area and can't immediately come up with a bird. Because you're not bringing on the dog's hunting skills which are plenty important whether it's a competitive retriever or a hunting dog.

And "throwing the first short and the second long" is inverse order of picking birds in competition--a test is set up to send a dog long for a go-bird only when judges want to see if a dog can use its memory and marking on the other birds in the test which are placed for just that reason. The rule of thumb when training--and the order the birds are thrown for retrieving--is to pick them short, long, longer. What you're doing is asking a dog to run past a mark, which is unnatural for a retriever, not to mention an advanced concept that's done in competition only on poison bird blinds. Again, I'd ask, what do you expect to gain from it for either the dog or for yourself? It's not a handling drill nor is it giving you any advantage in working on an actual hunting situation.

Unless you're attempting these things just to prove your dog can comply--and if so, I'd again ask why?--you might want to adhere to "how it's done" regardless for testing or for developing a duck dog.

MG

[lameduck]

I guess if you are asking why I am doing it, the answer is, I am trying to tempt/push him. For the same reasons I ran 440's instead of 400's in track, you always train at a higher level than you are wanting to preform.

I have also read that it is most natural for a dog to retrieve the second mark you throw first, no matter what the distance. I would assume this is true because naturally my dog ran past the short mark to the long mark.

I also do not think I was setting him up for an unnecessary correction, if he stops and starts to get the other bumper I LIGHTLY nick him and command "here." I am doing this because for some reason I have had a huge problem with playing the switching game, and have had to get a little creative to drive the point home. I have done force to pile like it is going out of style, but for some reason when I am dealing with multiple retrieves he always has the temptation to try to pick up 2 bumpers. For my dog its just a big hurdle, he picks up on things fast but this has just been a problem.

I also followed what I have read, and watched on DVD's by starting with the marks at a wide angle then closing the angle until the marks are within a few feet of each other. I believe most say it like this,"Start with the marks very wide apart, so that your dog almost has to run past you to get to the other mark. As your pup becomes competent at the wide angle start bringing the marks closer together, and soon you will be able to throw the marks WITHIN A FEW FEET of each other."

When I say long and short mark, the long mark is sitting somewhere between 60-80 yrds, and the short mark is about 30 yrds, which in my mind is a situation in which you will face often hunting.

[swampbilly 1980]

II have also read that it is most natural for a dog to retrieve the second mark you throw first, no matter what the distance. I would assume this is true because naturally my dog ran past the short mark to the long mark.

...Not to sound elementary, but assuming you threw only 2 bumpers this would be true. It actually is the last mark that is thrown whether it is 2 or 20 that was thrown

[lameduck]

Yes I only throw two bumpers when I do this. Its not elementary, but it would be pretty cool to be able to throw out 20 bumpers and say 13, and the dog retrieves the 13th bumper.

[crackerd]

I guess if you are asking why I am doing it, the answer is, I am trying to tempt/push him. For the same reasons I ran 440's instead of 400's in track, you always train at a higher level than you are wanting to preform.

If that's your analogy, no disrespect, but you're in for a rude awakening with dogs. Let's put it succinctly: Retrievers have to walk before they run, and you'll soon have a dog walking to a retrieve, or worse no-going, if you keep correcting it on marks. And you are correcting it, because by dint of its use, any application of the e-collar is a correction. Nor should you ever handle on marks if you can help it, especially in training. If your ambition is hunt tests, sounds if you may have to find that out the hard way.

You also seem to be reading into those DVDs and training programs what you want them to project, because this

I have also read that it is most natural for a dog to retrieve the second mark you throw first, no matter what the distance.

holds true only when the go-bird is a flyer. And this

most say..."Start with the marks very wide apart, so that your dog almost has to run past you to get to the other mark. As your pup becomes competent at the wide angle start bringing the marks closer together, and soon you will be able to throw the marks WITHIN A FEW FEET of each other."

if in fact taken from a training program (none that I'm familiar with), is the equivalent of the old "You too can wear our guaranteed see-through glasses!" comic book ads where the wearer is also WITHIN A FEW FEET of a couple of nice "marks." Why would/should the wearer choose one when it can look at both because they're sitting so close together?... You advisedly don't face a dog with having to make such a choice, because in the real world of duck hunting neither choice would be right or wrong, and in the make-believe world, of hunt tests and trials, the dog would not be confronted with such a choice--because birds are not thrown or shot in such proximity to another. Let's go with that as the cold truth if you're insisting on "tempting" or "pushing" the dog into making a decision it oughtn't be faced with in the first place.

MG

[swampbilly 1980]

Hello, Crackered, I wanna' make sure that I myself understand your post on the go-bird,..and it would be beneficial for the poster to fully understand as well,.. The last bumper thrown ; Isn't it safe to say that they are all flyers ( for the sake of bumper work), untill they hit the ground? If you can wing 'em 40yds. would you consider that too close?

The trainer has the option of sending the dog to any mark he chooses , but I've made it a habit to not to allow the dog to go to the last one every time, for the sake of keeping him out of the habit of inner desires, ie.. with the idea that the last one isn't always the go-bird

[lameduck]

Crackerd- Look man, while I am "new" to training dogs for waterfowl hunting I have been in the dog game for a long time. Long time is very relative in my case because I am 24, and I am sorry but a lot of what you are saying directly conflicts with what I have read and learned in the past. I learned most of what I know from my Dad, who has been training pointing, and upland retrieving dogs for almost 40 yrs.

The reason, other than just breaking him of picking up two bumpers at a time is what swamp hit on, generally you would want the furthest bird to be retrieved first, or be able to direct them to a wounded bird.

I guess a better analogy would be when a coach is teaching a batter to "sit back" on a pitch. After the batter has got it down, the coach will usually surprise the batter with an off speed pitch to drive the point home. You could see this as setting the batter up to fail, or preparing him for success in the future.

On another point you sound like an educated man, but your jargon and vocabulary get a little stuffy, and project a know it all attitude. Sorry it just gets on my nerves as I am surrounded by academics all day. Don't get me wrong I like seeing things from all points of view, but there is more that one correct way to skin a cat.

[swampbilly 1980]

lameduck, I understand what you are saying, and remember , the internet is hard without the person in front of you sometimes. Swamp has made these mistakes in the past. Statements can be misconscrued at times. Actually what I was trying to point out is that you want the dog to go to whatever mark the trainer chooses whether it would be the shortest, a flyer,the longest distance or even color ,..it's not the dogs' choice.

[crackerd]

LameD, except to rehash that youth is wasted on the young--as is "training pointing, and upland retrieving dogs for almost 40 yrs." when it comes to experience at training retrievers for competition--hope it all works out for you. You ran out of bounds for conventional training when "weird" appeared in your header. Oh, and far from being one, I snack on academics before breakfast.

Swamp, a flyer is a live bird that is shot strategically--where it's placed, what order it's shot in a multiple, and what distance it's shot at--in a test or trial to influence the rest of the test.

MG

[swampbilly 1980]

Swamp, a flyer is a live bird that is shot strategically--where it's placed, what order it's shot in a multiple, and what distance it's shot at--in a test or trial to influence the rest of the test.

MG

.....Gotcha' Crackered, I did know that previous to my question, I think the question that I actually had may have fallen between the cracks somewhere here.

[lameduck]

Well I went out today to "waste my youth" and he is no longer having the problem. He would literally run over the short mark on the way back and not pay any attention to it.

Crackerd- You eat academics for breakfast? Don't get light headed up on your high horse.

[copterdoc]

Wow!

Crackerd, the advice you have given in this thread is priceless.

Setting a dog up to fail, so that you can give it a needed correction is essential, to ensure the dog has a thorough understanding of what it is required to do.

But, that isn't what the thread starter is doing. Instead, he is training the dog to believe it will fail, even if it does the right thing. That is a drive killing training method and it makes no sense whatsoever.

Lameduck, even if you think Crackerd is on a high horse, he has earned the right to be up there. You will learn more from what he has to say than you can even imagine.

[lameduck]

Well maybe you could give an example of what I should do, instead of just repeat that I am not doing the right thing and it makes no sense.

I do not see how I was killing his drive, he would run out to the long mark and on the way back when he stopped to switch bumpers I would nick him on the e-collar and say "here." After the second time he no longer would stop, but instead he would (while running) make a little half circle, about a 2 1/2 ft. radius, around the bumper. He continued to do that and today, as he got more confident, that he was doing the right thing by passing up the mark, would run directly over the top of the short mark on the way back. The end of the story is, no matter how ignorant I was, it worked and in a short amount of time. I worked on marks that were very close to each other for the rest of the day and he never even cheated toward another mark on a retrieve. Also now when I throw a distraction bird he does not cheat over either. So all in all it worked, and it payed off in more ways than one.

[copterdoc]

Read Crackerd's first reply again.

You are committing a Cardinal sin, by forcing your dog to select off of the mark it should automatically self-select in any situation. You should rarely force the dog to retrieve a mark, when your dog has selected a different one. You want the dog to have as much confidence as possible when marking. Allowing the dog to select the first mark retrieved, is essential to build it's confidence.


In addition to what Crackerd said;
There are two kinds of switching:
(1.) The dog picks up a mark, and drops it, to retrieve another.
(2.) The dog runs to the area of a fall, hunts and then leaves the area of the fall, to hunt an old fall, or another mark.

By sending your dog on the same line, to pick up a long mark and ignore the short one, you are teaching the dog to do #2.

That is a lot harder to fix, than the kind of switching your dog is doing.

[lameduck]

You OBVIOUSLY are not reading what I am writing then. If you look I said that he naturally runs to the longer mark, which in this case is the last mark thrown. ON THE WAY BACK TO ME he stops to switch bumpers, when he does that I nick him and command here so that he will continue on the retrieve and not start switching out which bird he is carrying. I COULD CARE LESS which bird the dog picks up first I just do not want him going out picking up one bird and then running to another and switching.

I need to spell it out...

I toss out a short bumper, then a second long bumper. The dog runs to the long bumper and begins to carry it back to me, instead of coming back he stops at the short bumper and starts switching them. When he would stop I would nick him and command "here" so that he will not stop and continue to me.

Its a dead issue, clearly a misunderstanding of some kind. He no longer has that problem and it has been solved through ignorant means. Move on dead post.

-Edit-

To further clarify, if the dog would have "self selected" to pick up the short one and bring it back first without running out to the long bumper that would have made me just as happy. Whether he picks the short or long one first does not matter I just do not want him running to "his second choice" and switching.

[copterdoc]

I need to spell it out.

....I toss out a short bumper, then a second long bumper.....

Don't do that, with inline doubles!

If you want to produce a training situation, to cause your dog to try to switch, throw a diversion when the dog is returning with the last mark. As the diversion is in the air, blow a sit whistle and allow the dog to watch the mark fall. Then, call the dog in and if he tries to switch, use HERE-nick-HERE as a correction.

[lameduck]

Makes sense, thanks for the info. Would have been a lot easier if that was just said at the beg. I will start working on that in the morning.

[copterdoc]

There is one other thing that bothers me.

When your dog ran in a semi-circle around the short mark, he was doing what is called flaring. That indicates a misunderstanding of the collar correction. Instead of thinking he was corrected for attempting to switch, he thought the bumper or area around it, was a bad thing that needed to be avoided.

You have to be careful making collar corrections, even when the dog is CC'd. They can easily become confused in different situations and you definitely don't want your dog to think that bumpers or birds are the source of a correction.

[lameduck]

That is what I was thinking, so I laid off using the collar, and only used voice commands. He is all good now, and unless he relapses the problem is solved.

[swampbilly 1980]

Allowing the dog to select the first mark retrieved, is essential to build it's confidence.

I don't want to interrupt you guys but,..Copterdoc , help me out here,.. this I would agree with (and I certainly ain't no pro),.... if the dog is just beginning to retrieve bumpers. Confidence already seems to be there. Once he is confident, and is retrieveing single marks, once doubles are thrown, he's gonna' want the last friggin' one that has been thrown!! Do you agree??

How is allowing the dog or should I say, (commanding the dog at this point, because that's the only way you're gonna' get him to the first one, unless he actually by an act of GOD, selects it on his own,.. and we are talking about the first bumper here), how's that going to build confidence? Handling him to another bumper(the 1st) after the last one is thrown (which would be his selection) at this point, to me, would be a confidence destroying method. 99.9% of the time, he's NOT going to select the FIRST one thrown.. he's gonna want the 2nd one, and I'm asking this question because I am very confused here with what's being said, and I'm not trying to start any trouble.. .......

[copterdoc]

....I don't want to interrupt you guys but,..Copterdoc , help me out here,.. this I would agree with (and I certainly ain't no pro),.... if the dog is just beginning to retrieve bumpers. Confidence already seems to be there. Once he is confident, and is retrieveing single marks, once doubles are thrown, he's gonna' want the last friggin' one that has been thrown!! Do you agree??

Yes, but poorly engineered training set-ups, that are over the dog's head, cause the dog to fail without learning anything. Even highly confident dogs, will develop a bad attitude, when they continually fail to run successful marks.

...How is allowing the dog or should I say, (commanding the dog at this point, because that's the only way you're gonna' get him to the first one, unless he actually by an act of GOD, selects it on his own,.. and we are talking about the first bumper here), how's that going to build confidence?...

The training situation being discussed, essentially punishes the dog for selecting the last mark. The whole set-up is wrong. It will cause the dog to not trust it's own selection and that will crush it's confidence.

[swampbilly 1980]

Allowing the dog to select the first mark retrieved, is essential to build it's confidence.

Are you saying,..Allowing the dog to retrieve the first one he selects builds confidence? .....This I understand!!!...We're talking about a beginning retriever here. Can't allow the dog to make too many "selections" once he is confident.