Thoughts on water work-pattern blinds

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Re: Thoughts on water work-pattern blinds

Postby Indaswamp » Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:17 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Really, that seems like too much work to go through to me to teach blinds. But. I'm here to tell you now, there is NO better way to force a dog back, from your side and overhand, than on a trolley. Makes things much easier.

It is also the best way to do a basic debolt on a dog.

the advantage for me gone is I already have access to the technical pond... :thumbsup: with the poles already in place. For me it definitely seems to keep the dog's style and confidence up while teaching the pattern blind concepts.
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Re: Thoughts on water work-pattern blinds

Postby Indaswamp » Wed Jul 28, 2010 11:29 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Really, that seems like too much work to go through to me to teach blinds. But. I'm here to tell you now, there is NO better way to force a dog back, from your side and overhand, than on a trolley. Makes things much easier.

It is also the best way to do a basic debolt on a dog.

never seen it used for debolt...explain how you use it for this...I think I have a good idea-but I'm asking for clarification.
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Re: Thoughts on water work-pattern blinds

Postby gonehuntin' » Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:28 am

At the kennel, we had a long overhead line stretched out that ran past the INVITING opening to the passage to their kennels. It worked well for forcing back and debolting because the dogs had to run past that nice, inviting, open, kennel door that led to their nice, safe and cozy kennels. There was a tremendous temptation for the dog either inroute to the pile or coming in under duress to bolt for the safety of his kennel. The trolley kept him on a line and only allowed the dog to go two directions: away or to you.

If the dog chose away, he'd hit the end of the trolley, jump and spin while you burned him, and finally come in in heel, his only safe place. Same on going out. When forced inroute or from the side, the dog only had one way to turn off the juice, and that was to get a bumper in his mouth. Initially, the force back was begun with a stick or buggy whip, then the collar added.

Now, usually debolt and force back would be accomplished at the same time if you put enough heat on the dog, but if not, the debolt was done like this: You'd sit the dog at the end of the trolley and command HERE, burning the dog. On the way in, if he veered off route you'd nail him again and command HERE. Once he was 100% on the trolley, you'd take him off and proof him the same way.

In California, we used to force and debolt probably 300 dogs a year using this system and it was foolproof.
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Re: Thoughts on water work-pattern blinds

Postby Indaswamp » Thu Jul 29, 2010 7:07 am

gonehuntin' wrote:At the kennel, we had a long overhead line stretched out that ran past the INVITING opening to the passage to their kennels. It worked well for forcing back and debolting because the dogs had to run past that nice, inviting, open, kennel door that led to their nice, safe and cozy kennels. There was a tremendous temptation for the dog either inroute to the pile or coming in under duress to bolt for the safety of his kennel. The trolley kept him on a line and only allowed the dog to go two directions: away or to you.

If the dog chose away, he'd hit the end of the trolley, jump and spin while you burned him, and finally come in in heel, his only safe place. Same on going out. When forced inroute or from the side, the dog only had one way to turn off the juice, and that was to get a bumper in his mouth. Initially, the force back was begun with a stick or buggy whip, then the collar added.

Now, usually debolt and force back would be accomplished at the same time if you put enough heat on the dog, but if not, the debolt was done like this: You'd sit the dog at the end of the trolley and command HERE, burning the dog. On the way in, if he veered off route you'd nail him again and command HERE. Once he was 100% on the trolley, you'd take him off and proof him the same way.

In California, we used to force and debolt probably 300 dogs a year using this system and it was foolproof.

:thumbsup: I like it!
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Re: Thoughts on water work-pattern blinds

Postby swampbilly 1980 » Thu Jul 29, 2010 10:10 am

Indaswamp wrote:
gonehuntin' wrote:At the kennel, we had a long overhead line stretched out that ran past the INVITING opening to the passage to their kennels. It worked well for forcing back and debolting because the dogs had to run past that nice, inviting, open, kennel door that led to their nice, safe and cozy kennels. There was a tremendous temptation for the dog either inroute to the pile or coming in under duress to bolt for the safety of his kennel. The trolley kept him on a line and only allowed the dog to go two directions: away or to you.

If the dog chose away, he'd hit the end of the trolley, jump and spin while you burned him, and finally come in in heel, his only safe place. Same on going out. When forced inroute or from the side, the dog only had one way to turn off the juice, and that was to get a bumper in his mouth. Initially, the force back was begun with a stick or buggy whip, then the collar added.

Now, usually debolt and force back would be accomplished at the same time if you put enough heat on the dog, but if not, the debolt was done like this: You'd sit the dog at the end of the trolley and command HERE, burning the dog. On the way in, if he veered off route you'd nail him again and command HERE. Once he was 100% on the trolley, you'd take him off and proof him the same way.

In California, we used to force and debolt probably 300 dogs a year using this system and it was foolproof.

:thumbsup: I like it!
I think I might try it if the opportunity presents itself there, Inda'...I can't help but to think about trolly cars in San Francisco (trolley training)...It makes me hungry and want to eat a big bowl of "Rice A' Roni..a San Franciso Treat"..er, sorry :oops: ,..remember the commercial? :hi:
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Re: Thoughts on water work-pattern blinds

Postby Indaswamp » Thu Jul 29, 2010 12:57 pm

swampbilly 1980 wrote: I think I might try it if the opportunity presents itself there, Inda'...I can't help but to think about trolly cars in San Francisco (trolley training)...It makes me hungry and want to eat a big bowl of "Rice A' Roni..a San Franciso Treat"..er, sorry :oops: ,..remember the commercial? :hi:

Yea-I remember the commercial...if you have a retriever club-with some training grounds, this is a good place for the trolley...
BTW-don't use pulleys -use solid metal rings about 2 1/2 inches dia. and 3/16 thick...they'll work a whole lot better as sometimes the pulley will jump off the rope and get stuck...with the dog swimming circles in the pond... :oops: not good at all... :no:
Last edited by Indaswamp on Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thoughts on water work-pattern blinds

Postby gonehuntin' » Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:26 pm

Also in the water swamp, make sure that trolley cable is the right length. Too long and it can tangle in the front feet and cause problems. Safest way to do it is to hold onto the top of the dropper until the dog is away from you, then let HIM pull the Ring. That way it is usually behind him and he is safe. Problem can come on the return.
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Re: Thoughts on water work-pattern blinds

Postby Indaswamp » Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:58 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Also in the water swamp, make sure that trolley cable is the right length. Too long and it can tangle in the front feet and cause problems. Safest way to do it is to hold onto the top of the dropper until the dog is away from you, then let HIM pull the Ring. That way it is usually behind him and he is safe. Problem can come on the return.

we put a 2' piece of bungee at the top of the dropper to take up the slack...but leave a 4' piece of rope tied from one end of the bungee to the other..that way, the bungee can only stretch so far. The dog has a little play in the drop and the bungee keeps the rope out of the dog's feet... :thumbsup:
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Re: Thoughts on water work-pattern blinds

Postby gonehuntin' » Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:01 pm

Great idea. I was thinking about it all day and figured if I were rigging one again, I'd put one of those retractable leads on it so it was continually tight on the dog no matter what he did.
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Re: Thoughts on water work-pattern blinds

Postby Indaswamp » Thu Jul 29, 2010 6:52 pm

gonehuntin' wrote:Great idea. I was thinking about it all day and figured if I were rigging one again, I'd put one of those retractable leads on it so it was continually tight on the dog no matter what he did.

I'm thinking of maybe trying a piece of rigid spring loaded, coiled plastic...like part of an air line maybe...or a boat wash down hose... :thumbsup: bet that would work!
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Re: Thoughts on water work-pattern blinds

Postby Indaswamp » Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:55 am

Hey HNTFSH, maybe we could construct a technical "plond" and run the dogs on it first.... :umm: :lol3: :biggrin:
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Re: Thoughts on water work-pattern blinds

Postby HNTFSH » Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:09 am

Indaswamp wrote:Hey HNTFSH, maybe we could construct a technical "plond" and run the dogs on it first.... :umm: :lol3: :biggrin:


Well..it does provide plenty of 'running water'. :moon: :yes:
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Re: Thoughts on water work-pattern blinds

Postby Indaswamp » Sat Jul 31, 2010 9:27 am

hunt-chessies wrote:I have never heard of this concept but i really like it... I think having the water to do it all from one set point is the issue. I would guess you could just do it in a few places and with fewer legs. Intersting. I see it as a bit of a nighmare to set up but if you could leave it for a while i can see the use in it. How long typicaly do you run it?? couple months or life long as a touch up tool when needed?? I wouldn't mind seeing a picture too and maybe a video of a dog running it??

hunt-chessies, the big benefit to running from one central point is that you can use the push-pull drill to no the dog off false lines...you can use different areas with multiple start points, but it's best to have at least two lines run from one starting point so you can use the push pull on at least one other line... :thumbsup:
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Re: Thoughts on water work-pattern blinds

Postby Indaswamp » Sun Jun 05, 2011 9:34 pm

bump for Cujo...
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Re: Thoughts on water work-pattern blinds

Postby Cujo1 » Sun Jun 05, 2011 10:10 pm

Thanks Inda, This is what I was needing! :thumbsup:
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Re: Thoughts on water work-pattern blinds

Postby Indaswamp » Sun Jun 05, 2011 10:35 pm

Cujo1 wrote:Thanks Inda, This is what I was needing! :thumbsup:

:thumbsup:
i'm posting this here for everyone's benefit:
http://www.duckhuntingchat.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=143519&start=25&hilit=rat+trap#p1130036
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