She's Here Dakota Creek's Gauge

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Re: She's Here Dakota Creek's Gauge

Postby Phild » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:05 pm

copterdoc wrote:If she's wearing an e-collar in that last video, it's too loose and too low on her neck.
Also, you need to send from a front finish remote sit AT LEAST as often as you send from your side.

And it doesn't look like you have started forcing yet. Maybe that's because you just started lining to the pile.
Just because she is running to the pile, doesn't mean that you don't need to force.
You NEED to force. It's force-to-pile. Not forget-the-pressure.

And I wouldn't be using the hand as a cue yet. When the pressure starts to build up, (and it will) that hand is going to become a cue to start bugging. Wait until you are done with TT, and well into pattern blinds before you start dropping the hand before sending.


Yes she was wearing an e-collar and it was 1 finger under tight maybe it came down not sure but I thought I had it pretty high. Tonight I did not do any front finish remote sits but I usually do and then either give her a left or right back.

How will I know when I am forcing to the pile? I mean I will give her a nick and back command when we are just doing the drill and nothing else about every third or forth time she is sent. I have only been sending her to a pile no larger than 12 bumpers, should I go with more and build pressure and then add force? Pull the pile in to say 70 yards and work more reps? I can stop using the hand that is not a problem and will wait until I am further along.

No I am not really following any program at the moment I am using the tri tronics book for drills and working on them.

Thanks for the input
Phil
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Re: She's Here Dakota Creek's Gauge

Postby copterdoc » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:13 pm

Phild wrote:No I am not really following any program at the moment...
Get one.

Right now, you are starting the most critical point in all of your dog's basics. You need a good program, and you really need a coach there to help you.

This is when you learn the most, about training your dog.
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Re: She's Here Dakota Creek's Gauge

Postby copterdoc » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:10 pm

BTW, I think that the Farmer/Aycock basics DVD set does a better job of conveying what FTP, T and TT is "about" than Lardy's Total Retriever does.

Don't get me wrong TRT is excellent. And it's a more complete total program.
I'm just saying that for this stage, I would recommend Farmer/Aycock.

And it's only $40.
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Re: She's Here Dakota Creek's Gauge

Postby Phild » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:43 am

Thanks I just ordered both thanks. When you said I really need a coach here to help me I sure as hell wish there was someone, anyone that knew more than me in my area to train with even with in an hrs drive. Closest I can find is 5 hrs away and is just not going to happen with two kids and a wife that works.

Thanks
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Re: She's Here Dakota Creek's Gauge

Postby copterdoc » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:19 am

Great!

When you watch the demonstrations, you'll notice there are methodical differences between the two programs.
But, it's not the specific methods that train a dog.

It's your ability to apply them in a way that the dog learns the objectives.

So, instead of paying a lot of attention to the differences between the two programs, and trying to decide which method is "better" look for the similarities.

Try to understand what is at the core of the lesson.
Because that's what the dog needs to know before it can move ahead in training.

For the majority of these programs, it doesn't really matter what specific method or sequence is used. What matters is knowing how to apply them, so that the dog learns what it needs to learn.
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Re: She's Here Dakota Creek's Gauge

Postby copterdoc » Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:21 pm

Phild wrote:....How will I know when I am forcing to the pile? I mean I will give her a nick and back command when we are just doing the drill and nothing else about every third or forth time she is sent. I have only been sending her to a pile no larger than 12 bumpers, should I go with more and build pressure and then add force? Pull the pile in to say 70 yards and work more reps?
I went back through a few of your posts, and now realize that you are further into T work than I thought.

And, you are also bouncing back and forth. That's a problem, because these steps build on each other.
Going back and forth between them muddies up the water and clutters up the lesson in the dog's head.

There isn't a simple answer to your questions that I quoted above.
FTP is basically taking the concepts of stick fetch, and collar fetch and stretching them out to a distance.

It starts with ear pinch. It progresses to ear pinch to the ground. This is where the dog learns that pressure means fetch.

Then, you move to walking fetch. This is where the dog learns to walk and chew gum at the same time.

Then to stick fetch and/or collar fetch. This is where pressure is added, primarily to distract the dog from fetching. At first, that's the "why" behind the stick or the nick. When the dog refuses to fetch in reaction to the stick or collar pressure, that refusal is met with an ear pinch. At that point, the dog is being forced through a "real" refusal.

With repetition, the stick and/or nick no longer elicits a refusal to fetch. Because, the dog learns that if it refuses, it will be forced anyway. So, it starts to respond to the stick and/or nick the same way that it responds to the ear pinch. By fetching.

And at that point, the dog is being forced with the stick and/or the e-collar. This is also a good time to introduce simple casting. You have the conditioning in place to enforce the fetch command, in the face of a "real" refusal to fetch.

As long as it understands that, it can progress through FTP and learn that it is being forced not only to a bumper right in front of it, but even to a pile of bumpers that it can't even see, 100+ yards away.
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Re: She's Here Dakota Creek's Gauge

Postby krazybronco2 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:40 pm

after watching your videos i didnt realize how close we are in training. and looking good so far.
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Re: She's Here Dakota Creek's Gauge

Postby Phild » Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:35 pm

copterdoc wrote:
Phild wrote:....How will I know when I am forcing to the pile? I mean I will give her a nick and back command when we are just doing the drill and nothing else about every third or forth time she is sent. I have only been sending her to a pile no larger than 12 bumpers, should I go with more and build pressure and then add force? Pull the pile in to say 70 yards and work more reps?
I went back through a few of your posts, and now realize that you are further into T work than I thought.

And, you are also bouncing back and forth. That's a problem, because these steps build on each other.
Going back and forth between them muddies up the water and clutters up the lesson in the dog's head.

There isn't a simple answer to your questions that I quoted above.
FTP is basically taking the concepts of stick fetch, and collar fetch and stretching them out to a distance.

It starts with ear pinch. It progresses to ear pinch to the ground. This is where the dog learns that pressure means fetch.

Then, you move to walking fetch. This is where the dog learns to walk and chew gum at the same time.

Then to stick fetch and/or collar fetch. This is where pressure is added, primarily to distract the dog from fetching. At first, that's the "why" behind the stick or the nick. When the dog refuses to fetch in reaction to the stick or collar pressure, that refusal is met with an ear pinch. At that point, the dog is being forced through a "real" refusal.

With repetition, the stick and/or nick no longer elicits a refusal to fetch. Because, the dog learns that if it refuses, it will be forced anyway. So, it starts to respond to the stick and/or nick the same way that it responds to the ear pinch. By fetching.

And at that point, the dog is being forced with the stick and/or the e-collar. This is also a good time to introduce simple casting. You have the conditioning in place to enforce the fetch command, in the face of a "real" refusal to fetch.

As long as it understands that, it can progress through FTP and learn that it is being forced not only to a bumper right in front of it, but even to a pile of bumpers that it can't even see, 100+ yards away.


She has gone thru all of the above, ear, stick and collar fetch I have rarely seen a true refusal to a fetch command but I am sure the day and time will come. This has been my progresson ove the past couple of weeks. I have been doing a lot of 10 to 12 bumper piles, I started at 30 yards, 50 yards, 70 yards 100 yards and just last night went to 125 yards. She does get the nick from time to time going to the pile. I have worked on sending and return sit on a whistle as well as going to the pile with two side piles just 20 yards off the line to each side. I have also worked on sending to the pile on a "back" command and stiing 30 yards form the back pile and casting to both left and right piles or back casting to the pile.

When you say I am bouncing back and forth do you mean by doing marks and wagon wheels or just in the way I am doing the pile drills? I think that is what you are refering to the progression of my pile work.

Since I have got the material coming what should the progression be for the next couple of weeks before it gets here so I don't muddy the dog up? Should I continue with a 100 yard back pile and a right and left over pile 30 yards in and just work with that, doing front finish sits (how far out should I command sit, I have been doing 10 yards or so) and mixing up sending from my side as well as left and right overs? I am going to have to do something for the tow or three weeks and would like to do the right thing.

krazybronco: When you posted a question a while back about your pup and three handed casting I was just starting the exact same thing so I think the dogs are pretty close as you mentioned.

Thanks
Phil
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Re: She's Here Dakota Creek's Gauge

Postby copterdoc » Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:58 pm

Phild wrote:.....When you say I am bouncing back and forth do you mean by doing marks and wagon wheels or just in the way I am doing the pile drills? I think that is what you are refering to the progression of my pile work....
Well, it sounds to me like you are going from mini-t one day, to doing walking fetch and fetch-no-fetch the next. And then a week later on another day you go to a 100 yard FTP session. Two days after that, you introduce wagon wheel lining, and follow that up with a session of FTP.

You do need to keep throwing marks on the days that you are doing yard work.
As long as you separate your marking sessions from your yard sessions.

But, you don't need to do yardwork, just for the sake of doing yardwork. I understand that weather plays a huge part in what you can do week to week. But, that doesn't mean that you should be jumping all over the place for no other reason than you feel the need to do something.

Stay on track, and be thorough with each step. That's key.

Phild wrote:Since I have got the material coming what should the progression be for the next couple of weeks before it gets here so I don't muddy the dog up? Should I continue with a 100 yard back pile and a right and left over pile 30 yards in and just work with that, doing front finish sits (how far out should I command sit, I have been doing 10 yards or so) and mixing up sending from my side as well as left and right overs? I am going to have to do something for the tow or three weeks and would like to do the right thing.
It's not a race. Be patient.

I would be concentrating on field progression right now. Wait until you have the material before you go back into yardwork.
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Re: She's Here Dakota Creek's Gauge

Postby Phild » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:54 pm

quote] Well, it sounds to me like you are going from mini-t one day, to doing walking fetch and fetch-no-fetch the next. And then a week later on another day you go to a 100 yard FTP session. Two days after that, you introduce wagon wheel lining, and follow that up with a session of FTP.

Stay on track, and be thorough with each step. That's key.
quote]

True these are all things I have done and go back too, due to the lack of a proper program and following drills from books. As a former teacher I should know better it is the multi drill approach I was taking. I will back off and go back to Lardy's flow chart of field progression until i get my material. For some reason I thought it was going to be much easier that this, it is not the teaching/trainging or my dogs ability but lack of knowledge of progression from one point to another that I lack. I think I will work on bird in mouth and then progress to two singles as a land double while I wait for the program.

Thanks
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Re: She's Here Dakota Creek's Gauge

Postby copterdoc » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:10 pm

I want to also point out that you are in a perfect position, to really get a lot out of T work.

The two big things that really limit how much can be gained from the T and TT, are the dog's attitude and the temperature at the time of year that the dog is running it.

Gauge has an excellent attitude.
You are just now entering the spring thaw.

It's going to be at least a month or two, before your water is warm enough to start water force and swim by.

So, there is no reason that you shouldn't be able to take full advantage of what the TT has to offer you, and your dog.
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Re: She's Here Dakota Creek's Gauge

Postby TCFarmer » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:31 pm

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Re: She's Here Dakota Creek's Gauge

Postby Phild » Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:43 pm

Roger that Farmer printed it the other day, I have looked at it afew times in the past.
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Re: She's Here Dakota Creek's Gauge

Postby Phild » Sat Apr 20, 2013 11:10 am

Thought I would lighten the thread from all the boring training talk with some pics

Someone was left in the basement with Liam who swore he was watching her
Image

Article on Pheasant hunting thought I should tell her what to expect lol
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Kong's not always the best chew toy
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As advertised shreds into passable size pieces, good thing she doesn't eat them
Image

Last but not least I found Gauge waiting for me on the steps today it was her protest to more snow and -5 C temps
Image

Later
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Re: She's Here Dakota Creek's Gauge

Postby Phild » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:48 pm

Day off from training for us the wife worked nights so I pulled some crap I had in the garage and made Gauge a make shift training blind. She helped by spilling the beer and licking it up, she's good at that.

I use a full length of 3/4 pex pipe
8 x 3/4 T's
4 x 3/4 90's
4 x 3 footers
some old snow fence
some old blind material
and good old fashioned zip ties.

To make..............this lol
Image

Image

giving moral support
Image

Image

Image

I think she digs it, said kennel once and she was in like white on rice
Image

Image

Later
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Re: She's Here Dakota Creek's Gauge

Postby copterdoc » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:52 pm

Gauge is lovin' life.

What a very lucky dog.
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Re: She's Here Dakota Creek's Gauge

Postby Phild » Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:17 pm

Thanks Doc, I like to think she has it pretty good too.

I thought about putting this at the end but I moved it to the top of the post because it is more important. I learned something new tonight that I was totally unaware of. Gauge is not as "rock solid steady" as she has lead me to believe. Tonight we worked with a zinger winger and the first three times I launched it she broke ever single time. With being new and exciting, adding the duck call and gun shot of a primer she was just that much more intense on retrieving. Up until this point and hand thrown bumpers she was very very solid, but there was never the next level of excitement. I am glad I seen this sooner than later because we now have a little work to go over. I did five in total at one location and the last two were semi better not a real break but more of a creep.

We then took an hr break went back to the house and then moved to a different location with a bit heavier cover. We moved in closer to about 40 yards and did 4 more marks. The first was a creep so I made her heel and did bird in mouth while I reloaded, reminded her to mark, sounded the quack, reminded sit/hold and launched. I then took the bumper and sent her, it was much better but you could see her busting at the seems to hold back with all her might. Her steadiness needs polishing, I think when I add the gun above her with a blank she will break for sure...that next lever of excitement will be too much.

Speaking of how good Gauge has it her Zinger Winger came in today, I got the Dogtra release electronics with is and you know we had to try it out tonight. I will give a little run down form a guys perspective that knows nothing about these and is a real noobie to the game.

First impressions start with the web site I guess, just like any other online equipment store the site is easy to navigate and easy to use too easy when at a click of a button you drop $800.

Second: That brings me to the value of the item the build quality of the Winger is very good with high quality materials, I can't say as to the longevity of it yet but I know mine will get a good work out. In and out of the back of the truck, packed around in the RV and used daily. The electronics are also very nice and the "quack" feature is great I mean Gauge's ears perked right up every time she heard it and looked directly at the winger. With the ability to control 16 devices it is also very adaptable.

Third: Set up was very straight forward of both the winger and the electronics with two booklets of what and how to do's

Forth: Portability, I think any one with a car could even use this I mean it folds up nice and flat, is light and easy to carry (my 9 year old carried it) and stows away nicely.

Fifth: Field use, just like all the other areas I talked about the use in the field is very easy but if you do not have someone to load it you still have to sit your dog at the line and walk out and do the work your self. Which is fine by me because it gave Gauge time to practice sitting, and bird in mouth.

Overall I enjoyed using it and look forward to using it as a training tool from now on the only problem is I now have more gear to pack around so walking to training areas is much harder it can be done still with a launcher, bag of bumpers and my little case for the electronics and primers.
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Re: She's Here Dakota Creek's Gauge

Postby Phild » Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:32 pm

From the Swan Festival on the weekend
Image

Tonight's outing
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Image
Image

Later
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Re: She's Here Dakota Creek's Gauge

Postby copterdoc » Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:58 pm

Phild wrote:I learned something new tonight that I was totally unaware of. Gauge is not as "rock solid steady" as she has lead me to believe. Tonight we worked with a zinger winger and the first three times I launched it she broke ever single time. With being new and exciting, adding the duck call and gun shot of a primer she was just that much more intense on retrieving.....
Being in Canada, you won't get one in a test or trial, (unless you enter an event south of your border) but wait'll she gets a load of a shot flyer!

And the worst thing about a shot flyer's effect on the dog, is that it doesn't become less exciting with more exposure.

Sure, you can improve the dog's steadiness through the repeated use of flyers. That does get better.
But, the more flyers that a dog gets, the more jacked up it gets, when it recognizes the things that are associated with them.

They quickly learn to recognize when a test has a flyer in it. And that gets them amped. Then, they quickly recognize the flyer station, and that gets them to ignore everything else in the world.

And when the shot hits the flyer, blows a cloud of feathers off of it, and the bird crumples and falls from the sky, they forget everything that happened for the last two days.

Yeah, dogs love the hell out of some shot flyers.
Especially, once they know what they are.
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Re: She's Here Dakota Creek's Gauge

Postby copterdoc » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:16 pm

Oh yeah, I forgot to tell you a neat little tip for your winger.

It has 4 rubbers. Each one, has a weld ring zip-tied at one end.
When you set up the winger, you hook those 4 rings up, 2 to a hook.

Well, you don't need 4 rings. You just need 2 rings.

Cut the zip-ties and remove the rings from one rubber on each side of the winger. Then, just re-zip-tie each of those rubbers to the remaining ring on their respective sides of the winger.

Now, you only need to hook one ring to the left hook, and one ring to the right hook. The two rubbers attached to the same ring still work the same way. They form a V, off of the same ring.

It just makes it quicker to set up, and re-load the winger.

And BTW, don't store and transport the winger with the pouch/pulley/rubbers installed. The sunlight kills the tubing quicker than anything.
Instead, take the pouch/pulley/rubber assembly off, and keep it in a heavy fabric bag, that you can close up and store under the seat, or somewhere else out of direct sunlight.
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Re: She's Here Dakota Creek's Gauge

Postby Phild » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:22 am

copterdoc wrote:Oh yeah, I forgot to tell you a neat little tip for your winger.

It has 4 rubbers. Each one, has a weld ring zip-tied at one end.
When you set up the winger, you hook those 4 rings up, 2 to a hook.

Well, you don't need 4 rings. You just need 2 rings.

Cut the zip-ties and remove the rings from one rubber on each side of the winger. Then, just re-zip-tie each of those rubbers to the remaining ring on their respective sides of the winger.

Now, you only need to hook one ring to the left hook, and one ring to the right hook. The two rubbers attached to the same ring still work the same way. They form a V, off of the same ring.

It just makes it quicker to set up, and re-load the winger.

And BTW, don't store and transport the winger with the pouch/pulley/rubbers installed. The sunlight kills the tubing quicker than anything.
Instead, take the pouch/pulley/rubber assembly off, and keep it in a heavy fabric bag, that you can close up and store under the seat, or somewhere else out of direct sunlight.



Roger that, thanks. I was already thinking of a faster way to reload the winger already. There is just no way in hell you are goign to reload it with all 4 of the rings still attached thoug, what needs to be invented it is an eyelet with a small cable running thry the release, to the eye on the pouch connected to a small 12V motor that will wind back up pulling the pouch into a cloked position. At least you could reset it on te walk back out. It would have to be pretty torquey though lol.

As fot shot flyers you are right I won't get any up here but I was planning on training them down the road anyway. For now I only had pigeons, chuckers and pheasants in mind as they are easy access, any type of duck is pretty hard to find in this area never mind a mallard.

Have a great day, thanks
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Re: She's Here Dakota Creek's Gauge

Postby copterdoc » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:52 am

Phild wrote:There is just no way in hell you are goign to reload it with all 4 of the rings still attached thoug,
I do it that way all the time.

And my wingers have 1/2" speargun tubing, so it's a LOT harder.

I just put the bird in the pouch, and push it all the way down until I can slide the eye bolt on to the release. Once you get the hang of it, it's pretty easy. But, not nearly as easy as popping the rings off the hooks first, and then hooking them back up after the pouch is latched.

I did get my hand hammered by a pulley one day though.

After the previous launch, one of the pulleys wasn't seated in the hook right. When I loaded the bird, and had pushed the pouch down about halfway to the release, that hook let go of the pulley, and the pulley smashed right into the back of my hand.

Imagine getting shot in the back of the hand with a pulley fired from a high powered wrist rocket.
I cussed so loud my next dog was afraid to get out of the truck.
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Re: She's Here Dakota Creek's Gauge

Postby Phild » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:56 am

copterdoc wrote:
Phild wrote:There is just no way in hell you are goign to reload it with all 4 of the rings still attached thoug,
I cussed so loud my next dog was afraid to get out of the truck.


Mabe me kinda chucckle out loud, I was also picturing getting a dead buck in the chops at about 50 mph as well.
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Re: She's Here Dakota Creek's Gauge

Postby tenfingergrip » Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:26 pm

Phil,
Might as well go ahead and order your 2 other wingers! You know you are gonna want them and "need" them. Plus, you haven't quite reached the $10,000 plateau on dog accessories that is required before you get your Labrador Retriever Addiction Certificate! :lol3:


Like your training blind......probably will need some holes drilled in the base and stakes thru them to stake it down. First time I used my homemade field blind, it went about 40 yards down range with Kelli, hence stakedown on the corners.
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Re: She's Here Dakota Creek's Gauge

Postby Phild » Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:38 pm

tenfingergrip wrote:Phil,
Might as well go ahead and order your 2 other wingers! You know you are gonna want them and "need" them. Plus, you haven't quite reached the $10,000 plateau on dog accessories that is required before you get your Labrador Retriever Addiction Certificate! :lol3:


Like your training blind......probably will need some holes drilled in the base and stakes thru them to stake it down. First time I used my homemade field blind, it went about 40 yards down range with Kelli, hence stakedown on the corners.


LMAO the wife already gave me crap for spending $1200 this month, I told her it was coming from gauge's account but she said then why is it on your visa, have her apply for her own. After my first 4 throws I knew I wanted at least 2 more LOL.

I used 4 way connectors for the cross members so I can put in a 10 inch spike from the top of the connector put the cross member in and that will hold it in place when it gets put in the ground.

Later
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