Germany's versatile breeds

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Germany's versatile breeds

Postby Sir Remington » Sun May 05, 2013 9:03 pm

I'm planning on getting a dog soon and leaning toward pudlepointer or DD anybody out there have a German versatile breed and can tell me about them, pictures never hurt either!
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Re: Germany's versatile breeds

Postby Duckdon » Sun May 05, 2013 11:00 pm

I have 2 DD Ritterburg dogs out of Minnesota. One 17 months and one 3 months old. They produce some real nice dogs if your looking for a Versatile hunting type dog. Real strong prey drive and never quit. Trainable and intellegent. There are other good DD breeders out there, but not all Drahthaar's are created equal. Have a look at their web site. Don
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Re: Germany's versatile breeds

Postby gonehuntin' » Mon May 06, 2013 4:51 am

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Re: Germany's versatile breeds

Postby Cajun1085 » Mon May 06, 2013 6:25 am

A good frien of mine has a DD and it is a hunt everything dog! It is absolutely amazing! Like Don said make sure it's a good Breeder
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Re: Germany's versatile breeds

Postby Sir Remington » Mon May 06, 2013 6:28 am

Thanks for the information that quick, hoping a pudelpointer owner will hop on soon, The link had great information but it was more like an argument page. Although it was a great read any more links you can think of post em up cause I'd love to hear more about DD,sounds like there is not much they cant do.
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Re: Germany's versatile breeds

Postby Duckdon » Mon May 06, 2013 8:18 am

Pp are not as common on this site. Might head over to versatiledogs.com Don
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Re: Germany's versatile breeds

Postby OmegaRed » Mon May 06, 2013 8:22 am

Sir Remington wrote:Thanks for the information that quick, hoping a pudelpointer owner will hop on soon, The link had great information but it was more like an argument page. Although it was a great read any more links you can think of post em up cause I'd love to hear more about DD,sounds like there is not much they cant do.


Hey Remington,

Having looked around quite a bit before deciding on a pup, I did TONS of reading.

VDD: The DD's organization (Tons of pics, info on testing etc.)
http://www.vdd-gna.org/

Anything specific you'd like to know about? There are a few people on here with DD's that I've talked to all with pretty good reviews towards the breed. As far as the testing goes, there are lots of things that are required out of them, and seems to produce pretty well rounded dogs.
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Re: Germany's versatile breeds

Postby Jarbo03 » Mon May 06, 2013 10:27 am

Once you go versatile, you'll never go back.:lol:
Lots of good dogs out there, I would also throw a WPG on your list of options, I'm glad I did. Beyond that I believe picking the best litter is more important than the breed. Good luck.

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Re: Germany's versatile breeds

Postby NY-PP » Mon May 06, 2013 12:14 pm

I have owned 3 (currently still own 2) PP's, in Upstate NY. They are fantastic all around bird / water dogs. We hunt waterfowl from October through our January split. All of my dogs have come from Cedarwoods in Idaho. I have had GSP's and a GWP prior to switching to PP's.

This was my 1st PP which we lost last year after 9 great seasons.
maxwoodies3-1.jpg


Here is my current, 4 year old. My 3rd dog is 7 weeks old.
mojo duck hunt(2).jpg
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Re: Germany's versatile breeds

Postby simplepeddler » Mon May 06, 2013 12:31 pm

Don't rule out the Wachtelhund
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Re: Germany's versatile breeds

Postby Sir Remington » Mon May 06, 2013 12:49 pm

I always liked the look of WPGs, yet there is just something about pudelpointers that solid color with white blaze and the perfect bread. Plus I've read about them having great personalities and little shedding, right now i'm weighing DD, PP, WPG, what kind of health problems are these breeds prone too? I have not heard of many problems but would like to know the possibilities, found a kennel I like the guy and his family have great test scores on their breed stock, ton of hunting ability and they live only an hour away.

This dog will see mostly duck hunting on smaller lakes and ponds, maybe 15 days of grouse(sharps, and ruff) a year, quite a but of pheasant, little woodcock, something that has a soft enough mouth for mourning dove, never dove hunted with a dog so is that even a problem?, I assume so. Also I'm wanting to try chukars

does anyone use these dogs to run rabbit and hares, I've always wanted to try that with a dog

I live in central Minnesota so needs to handle winter ok

also how easy are the DD, PP, WPG to train, I have had experience with brittanys, labs, and a lab/chessie mix

-thanks to the guy for the pictures of pudelpointer, u have some real nice looking dogs
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Re: Germany's versatile breeds

Postby Jarbo03 » Mon May 06, 2013 5:35 pm

Last year my griff hunted dove near 100 deg, sharptails & huns in MT, chickens and phez in KS, then broke ice on the river chasing ducks and geese. All well bred versatiles should do the same for ya. They can even find the remote when lost.
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Re: Germany's versatile breeds

Postby NY-PP » Tue May 07, 2013 8:17 am

Jarbo,

That remote trick is something I have taught my PP's to do. Between the wife and the young kids I can never find the thing. It is very handy!
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Re: Germany's versatile breeds

Postby Griffdom » Tue May 07, 2013 9:47 am

I think that any of the three breeds you have mentioned can be very versatile and get the job done. With the DD and PP your search will be easier to find a well bred one of hunting quality. The DD of course is tested through the German system, which allows you to have some degree of confidence that you will get a quality hunting dog. With the PP I would look at the breeders who are a part of the North American Pudelpointer Alliance (NAPPA). It is made up of PP breeders that work together, sharing genetics, etc., to produce the best dog possible. Many people believe that they are producing some of the best hunting dogs for waterfowl and upland in the world. They tend to produce better coats than those found in Germany even. They have breeding guidelines (e.g., NAVHDA testing, health clearances, etc), giving buyers a better chance of getting a quality hunting companion as well. As far as testing goes, NAPPA will not breed a male unless they have past the Utility test in NAVHDA (or some test equivalent) and females must pass the NA with a score of like 105 or something like that. The PP is the highest scoring breed in NAVHDA NA on average and has been, I think, since NAVHDA started.

I went with a griff of course. With the Griff you will have to do more research. Coats can be all over the place, but if you find a quality breeder then you can get a very good, high quality hunting dog with a good tight field coat. There are a handful of breeders, mostly located the Midwest, that are producing some excellent griffs. I've been told that the difference between the DD and a good griff in the field is very little. The key being a "good griff". There is not as much consistency in the breed. I will be driving from Oklahoma to Wisconsin to pick mine up. I have a shorthair now and have a griff coming because I, like you, wanted a dog that I could successfully hunt multiple species. I also like the idea of blood tracking. Griffs aren't as well known for their tracking ability, but several people have used them successfully for this. A guy in Alaska uses them to track wounded bear and elk throughout the season. I have done a lot of research on griffs and the PP over the last three years as theses are the two breeds I was considering. I have a short list of breeders of WPG that I would consider getting a dog from that I could pass along to you if you would like. PM me. All of these breeders are producing quality hunting griffs with tighter field coats (no sheepdog looking dogs).

Yes, the breeds you are looking at can hunt rabbits. The DD may be the better of the three when it comes to tracking so if you plan to do a lot of rabbit hunting you might look more into them. People use the PP and WPG for rabbit as well though. I certainly plan to do so. Being able to hunt fur and feather allows more opportunity to hunt throughout the season. I have hunted rabbit with my shorthair and enjoy it. Usually rabbits are just bonus table fare for me while hunting birds. I'll probably be a bit more serious about it with my griff.

Jarbo, good to see you are a part of this forum. I am JTracyII from over on the V-dogs forum.

You won't regret getting a versatile. Go over to the versatiledogs.com site and you can get a lot more info.
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Re: Germany's versatile breeds

Postby OmegaRed » Tue May 07, 2013 10:25 am

NY-PP wrote:Jarbo,

That remote trick is something I have taught my PP's to do. Between the wife and the young kids I can never find the thing. It is very handy!


Your wife must love you having more than one PP. :wink:
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Re: Germany's versatile breeds

Postby Griffdom » Tue May 07, 2013 11:44 am

AidanK wrote:
Griffdom wrote:I think that any of the three breeds you have mentioned can be very versatile and get the job done. With the DD and PP your search will be easier to find a well bred one of hunting quality. The DD of course is tested through the German system, which allows you to have some degree of confidence that you will get a quality hunting dog. With the PP I would look at the breeders who are a part of the North American Pudelpointer Alliance (NAPPA). It is made up of PP breeders that work together, sharing genetics, etc., to produce the best dog possible. Many people believe that they are producing some of the best hunting dogs for waterfowl and upland in the world.

Self Promotion Nonsense.
The only time a NAPPA PP ran in HZP it failed. Few to 0 HRC titles on PPs.


They tend to produce better coats than those found in Germany even. They have breeding guidelines (e.g., NAVHDA testing, health clearances, etc), giving buyers a better chance of getting a quality hunting companion as well. As far as testing goes, NAPPA will not breed a male unless they have past the Utility test in NAVHDA (or some test equivalent) and females must pass the NA with a score of like 105 or something like that. The PP is the highest scoring breed in NAVHDA NA on average and has been, I think, since NAVHDA started.

Again, very debateable and more self promotion. The PP is not very popular IN Germany for a few reasons..



I went with a griff of course. With the Griff you will have to do more research. Coats can be all over the place, but if you find a quality breeder then you can get a very good, high quality hunting dog with a good tight field coat. There are a handful of breeders, mostly located the Midwest, that are producing some excellent griffs. I've been told that the difference between the DD and a good griff in the field is very little. The key being a "good griff". There is not as much consistency in the breed. I will be driving from Oklahoma to Wisconsin to pick mine up. I have a shorthair now and have a griff coming because I, like you, wanted a dog that I could successfully hunt multiple species. I also like the idea of blood tracking. Griffs aren't as well known for their tracking ability, but several people have used them successfully for this. A guy in Alaska uses them to track wounded bear and elk throughout the season. I have done a lot of research on griffs and the PP over the last three years as theses are the two breeds I was considering. I have a short list of breeders of WPG that I would consider getting a dog from that I could pass along to you if you would like. PM me. All of these breeders are producing quality hunting griffs with tighter field coats (no sheepdog looking dogs).

I once asked a NAVHDA judge 10 yrs ago the difference between a DD and WPG. He reply: 1 hunts.
I do know that the WPG is much improved.


Yes, the breeds you are looking at can hunt rabbits. The DD may be the better of the three when it comes to tracking so if you plan to do a lot of rabbit hunting you might look more into them. People use the PP and WPG for rabbit as well though. I certainly plan to do so. Being able to hunt fur and feather allows more opportunity to hunt throughout the season. I have hunted rabbit with my shorthair and enjoy it. Usually rabbits are just bonus table fare for me while hunting birds. I'll probably be a bit more serious about it with my griff.

DDs from Stichelhaar line WILL circle rabbits, even seen a few catch tracked cottontails, tracking them hundreds of yards.
If you dont like this, trash break them. I prefer a Point and shot on flush. No other V dog that I know can or will do this with this ability.



You won't regret getting a versatile. Go over to the versatiledogs.com site and you can get a lot more info.

I too like V Dogs, I think as a group we are uncompromising and that is why we are somtimes resented.
If youre in MN contact Ritter. Top Notch imho.

If I focused on birds, I might opt PP, But For True Versatile work a DD hands down.
For closer working upland dog and some Water work a WPG.
Training is same with all. A Softer approach. Mix it up and make it fun.
Dont drill ad nausium. Throw in 'freebies' when training ie Marks with Blinds, use treats in obedience, and generally positive type training and just plain exposure.
You get out of it, what you put it..DDs are smarter than most young children. That can be both A blessing and a curse.



By the way, many V-dogs will point fur. My field trial bred GSP points fur just fine.

If you were referring to tracking rabbits long distances, then your right the DD is probably the way to go (which if you reread my post I recommended the DD for being better on rabbits). The DD is more popular in Germany than any other breed including the PP ( which you pointed out), primarily because they are the most tenacious on fur and large game. In Germany, bird hunting as we know it is almost non existent. Germans now have to focus mostly on big game hunting, predators, and rabbits because there are few birds left. Hence, the popularity of the DD there. The PP's strengths are in bird (waterfowl and upland) hunting which is why they have gained popularity so rapidly here in the US in such a short time. Most American's have no need for the fur sharpness. I personally appreciate this quality of fur sharpness, but most American's could do without it. Oh, and the PP has one of the greatest drives to retrieve of any breed, including the DD. This is another reason that many hard core waterfowlers are turning to them when they want a V-dog. Don't hear what I am not saying, the DD has proven itself to be a good bird dog too.

I personally believe that NAPPA is doing their best to build the best dog possible. They will use PP's from various sources as long as they can pass the hunt tests and other criteria required. Their stock includes dogs from NAVHDA, the Czech, Germany, etc. Take the best wherever you find it is basically their philosophy. Being a DD guy this probably sounds familiar. This is the mindset with which the DD was created (but now only includes dogs in their own registry). In my mind the openness to include dogs of various registries as long as they pass their criteria is what makes the NAPPA great. They are a great group of guys working together and sharing genetics. The German registry for the PP is so small that they have had to infuse English Pointer back into their lines. They would rather do this than include actual PP's from other countries. I am not saying that the VPP does not create a good PP, I am sure it does. But, NAPPA has been able to expand their gene pool quite well without including the EP because of their open mindedness. And, yes it is true that the PP has on average outscored in the Natural Ability test in NAVHDA all other breeds most years (if not all) since NAVHDA was created. That is not self promotion. That is what the numbers tell us. I don't have a PP. I have no dog in this fight. This is simply fact.

Lastly, as I said before any of the three breeds that the original poster is looking at will do him well. Do your homework on the breeder that produces dogs that you would want and get on a waiting list and be patient. Don't just pay for the a pup because it is available now. Good litters sometimes have long waiting lists. It is usually worth the wait.
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Re: Germany's versatile breeds

Postby NY-PP » Tue May 07, 2013 12:05 pm

Aiden, what's the name of the NAPPA dog that allegedly failed the HZP? I am only aware of one NAPPA dog being German and that dog has never run the HZP.

Has anybody ever noticed that the personality of drathaar guys tend to match up perfectly with their dogs? About 80% are laid back, good folks/dogs. The other 20% have all the pleasant charm of a sea-sick crocodile.
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Re: Germany's versatile breeds

Postby Jarbo03 » Tue May 07, 2013 12:42 pm

Griffdom wrote:I think that any of the three breeds you have mentioned can be very versatile and get the job done. With the DD and PP your search will be easier to find a well bred one of hunting quality. The DD of course is tested through the German system, which allows you to have some degree of confidence that you will get a quality hunting dog. With the PP I would look at the breeders who are a part of the North American Pudelpointer Alliance (NAPPA). It is made up of PP breeders that work together, sharing genetics, etc., to produce the best dog possible. Many people believe that they are producing some of the best hunting dogs for waterfowl and upland in the world. They tend to produce better coats than those found in Germany even. They have breeding guidelines (e.g., NAVHDA testing, health clearances, etc), giving buyers a better chance of getting a quality hunting companion as well. As far as testing goes, NAPPA will not breed a male unless they have past the Utility test in NAVHDA (or some test equivalent) and females must pass the NA with a score of like 105 or something like that. The PP is the highest scoring breed in NAVHDA NA on average and has been, I think, since NAVHDA started.

I went with a griff of course. With the Griff you will have to do more research. Coats can be all over the place, but if you find a quality breeder then you can get a very good, high quality hunting dog with a good tight field coat. There are a handful of breeders, mostly located the Midwest, that are producing some excellent griffs. I've been told that the difference between the DD and a good griff in the field is very little. The key being a "good griff". There is not as much consistency in the breed. I will be driving from Oklahoma to Wisconsin to pick mine up. I have a shorthair now and have a griff coming because I, like you, wanted a dog that I could successfully hunt multiple species. I also like the idea of blood tracking. Griffs aren't as well known for their tracking ability, but several people have used them successfully for this. A guy in Alaska uses them to track wounded bear and elk throughout the season. I have done a lot of research on griffs and the PP over the last three years as theses are the two breeds I was considering. I have a short list of breeders of WPG that I would consider getting a dog from that I could pass along to you if you would like. PM me. All of these breeders are producing quality hunting griffs with tighter field coats (no sheepdog looking dogs).

Yes, the breeds you are looking at can hunt rabbits. The DD may be the better of the three when it comes to tracking so if you plan to do a lot of rabbit hunting you might look more into them. People use the PP and WPG for rabbit as well though. I certainly plan to do so. Being able to hunt fur and feather allows more opportunity to hunt throughout the season. I have hunted rabbit with my shorthair and enjoy it. Usually rabbits are just bonus table fare for me while hunting birds. I'll probably be a bit more serious about it with my griff.

Jarbo, good to see you are a part of this forum. I am JTracyII from over on the V-dogs forum.

You won't regret getting a versatile. Go over to the versatiledogs.com site and you can get a lot more info.

Congrats on the upcoming griff, you won't be disappointed. You mind me asking who you are getting your pup from?

Would like to be on versatiledogs more, but they won't add tapatalk.

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Re: Germany's versatile breeds

Postby Griffdom » Tue May 07, 2013 1:05 pm

Yea, I am getting my dog from Jamie Kuhn at Aspen Glo Kennel's out of Libby and Alder's Edge Valor "Sam." Should hit the ground sometime later this month. Jamie's goal with this litter was a line breeding on VC Anton of Geneva Lake with this breeding. Libbie is a daughter to him and Sam is a grandson. Both dogs have great coats and I have talked to several owners of Libby dogs and all seem to be very pleased.
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Re: Germany's versatile breeds

Postby Jarbo03 » Tue May 07, 2013 1:50 pm

Griffdom wrote:Yea, I am getting my dog from Jamie Kuhn at Aspen Glo Kennel's out of Libby and Alder's Edge Valor "Sam." Should hit the ground sometime later this month. Jamie's goal with this litter was a line breeding on VC Anton of Geneva Lake with this breeding. Libbie is a daughter to him and Sam is a grandson. Both dogs have great coats and I have talked to several owners of Libby dogs and all seem to be very pleased.


Have heard good things about his dogs. Have a friend getting a pup from Brian While in Prairie du Chein in a few months, he works some with Jaime.

If cruising on I-35 with the pup, you should stop in KS for lunch and let me see the newest addition.

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Re: Germany's versatile breeds

Postby Griffdom » Tue May 07, 2013 3:01 pm

AidanK,

I am sure that those reading this thread can see for themselves who is more balanced in their views and who is breed biased/blind. We can agree to disagree. That's fine. :wink:
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Re: Germany's versatile breeds

Postby Griffdom » Tue May 07, 2013 3:03 pm

Jarbo03 wrote:
Griffdom wrote:Yea, I am getting my dog from Jamie Kuhn at Aspen Glo Kennel's out of Libby and Alder's Edge Valor "Sam." Should hit the ground sometime later this month. Jamie's goal with this litter was a line breeding on VC Anton of Geneva Lake with this breeding. Libbie is a daughter to him and Sam is a grandson. Both dogs have great coats and I have talked to several owners of Libby dogs and all seem to be very pleased.


Have heard good things about his dogs. Have a friend getting a pup from Brian While in Prairie du Chein in a few months, he works some with Jaime.

If cruising on I-35 with the pup, you should stop in KS for lunch and let me see the newest addition.

Sent from a gnarly phone with a kickstand

Thanks for the invite. We will have to see how the trip goes. I will be with my wife so we will see. Where in KS are you?
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Re: Germany's versatile breeds

Postby gonehuntin' » Tue May 07, 2013 3:47 pm

Maybe if we all simply ignore him, aidanK will simply go away.
I hate seeing a game bird die of natural causes, unless I naturally cause it.
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Re: Germany's versatile breeds

Postby Jarbo03 » Tue May 07, 2013 4:37 pm

Griffdom wrote:
Jarbo03 wrote:
Griffdom wrote:Yea, I am getting my dog from Jamie Kuhn at Aspen Glo Kennel's out of Libby and Alder's Edge Valor "Sam." Should hit the ground sometime later this month. Jamie's goal with this litter was a line breeding on VC Anton of Geneva Lake with this breeding. Libbie is a daughter to him and Sam is a grandson. Both dogs have great coats and I have talked to several owners of Libby dogs and all seem to be very pleased.


Have heard good things about his dogs. Have a friend getting a pup from Brian While in Prairie du Chein in a few months, he works some with Jaime.

If cruising on I-35 with the pup, you should stop in KS for lunch and let me see the newest addition.

Sent from a gnarly phone with a kickstand

Thanks for the invite. We will have to see how the trip goes. I will be with my wife so we will see. Where in KS are you?

Near Lawrence, bout 20 minutes from I-35.

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Re: Germany's versatile breeds

Postby Griffdom » Tue May 07, 2013 8:59 pm

AidanK,

Since your so interested in facts. The fact is that the main region that holds any huntable upland birds is the northern most part of Germany. That is primarily where all those birds you listed the numbers for we're taken. Most hunting DDs in Germany see more Russian boar and hare than upland birds every year. Most German DD guys are more interested in Russian boars and hares than upland birds because that is what they have close to home. In fact, a group of DD guys approached the VDD to request that upland testing be limited to focus more on other things because they felt it was less relevant to the average German hunter. How is that for the facts?
Last edited by Griffdom on Tue May 07, 2013 9:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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