GSP for duckhunting

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Re: GSP for duckhunting

Postby Tanner01 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:14 am

I've been thinking about the swimming aspect and the dogs body type. I noticed my lab does ride higher in the water then the griffon or my GSP. The griffon swims softly with little effort and goes thru the Lilly pads almost by parting them. She is slow but I think more efficient. The GSP crashes and fights thru hard and fast, a lot of wasted energy, she actually is slower in the weeds and faster in the open water. No comparison to the lab, he is elegant and quick and he seems to float with his back almost out of the water where the other two are just heads. Their swimming styles seem to reflect their personalities and traits of the breed. I am glad I don't hunt a lot of large open water, just realizing how much different the retriever really is in the water, with the side by side comparisons. The GSP will do the job and I think mine is going to be good, but she will never be in the same category as a retriever.
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Re: GSP for duckhunting

Postby Joel » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:37 am

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They just can't take the cold like a lab. She floats like a dream handles like a Ford. Not going to pass a MH test with her but she gets the job done.
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Re: GSP for duckhunting

Postby Tanner01 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:55 am

nice looking dog, who looks like it can get the job done.
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Re: GSP for duckhunting

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:23 pm

very nice looking dog, and good to see not skin n bone so that sure helps with the cold.
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Re: GSP for duckhunting

Postby Joel » Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:12 am

She' is a fatty for sure. Dont get me wrong I love GSP's but she is second string I only take her when my old lab needs a brake or he is injured. Best to hunt her on a hole that you know the action is fast too. She can't sit there all day like a lab or CBR. But she is fun.

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Re: GSP for duckhunting

Postby Legband#1 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:47 pm

She's a beauty Joel.
My little girl normally works the upland scene but I do leave the lab at home once in a great while to let her hit the marsh, but like your girl it better be hot and heavy she just has to much pent up energy. Colt my 5 year old Labrador will stomp down tulles for and hour to bring back a bird but he's just as happy to eat sandwiches and donuts while we sit all day if its slow. They are simply designed differently through hundreds of years of breeding.


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Re: GSP for duckhunting

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:54 pm

shes not a fatty!!!! short for her weight maybe...but not a fatty :thumbsup:
I meant it when I said its good to see a GSP not skin and bones, it really does make them better in the duck blind.
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Re: GSP for duckhunting

Postby Joel » Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:35 am

I stand corrected.
I reather them be on the thick side myself.
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Re: GSP for duckhunting

Postby Jarbo03 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:28 am

Tanner01 wrote:I've been thinking about the swimming aspect and the dogs body type. I noticed my lab does ride higher in the water then the griffon or my GSP. The griffon swims softly with little effort and goes thru the Lilly pads almost by parting them. She is slow but I think more efficient. The GSP crashes and fights thru hard and fast, a lot of wasted energy, she actually is slower in the weeds and faster in the open water. No comparison to the lab, he is elegant and quick and he seems to float with his back almost out of the water where the other two are just heads. Their swimming styles seem to reflect their personalities and traits of the breed. I am glad I don't hunt a lot of large open water, just realizing how much different the retriever really is in the water, with the side by side comparisons. The GSP will do the job and I think mine is going to be good, but she will never be in the same category as a retriever.



Rick Hall wrote:
Legband#1 wrote:Hey Rick I'm unsure of the point your trying to make , is it that upland dogs like brittney's or gsp's out swim water dogs Chessies or Labs or that you have seen a exception to the rule .


If you reread my initial post, I think you'll see that my point is simply that I believe there's more to relative bouyancy, and subsequently swimming ease, than just body fat.


I have seen it go all different ways. My Griff doesn't seem very buoyant, but he swins as good, usually better than most labs we've been around. He sits low, but is very smooth in the water, I think the long legs and big paws help. He is 68# and very lean. He doesn't mind breaking ice and multiple cold retrieves.
uploadfromtaptalk1375882049767.jpg


My britt retrieved a lit if birds, was comfy in water, but never swam close to the level of my lab. The dogs demeanor and attitude definitely has a lot to do with the way they go about their business.

Your GSP should be fine, but like I had to be with my britt, just be smart. Good luck!
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Re: GSP for duckhunting

Postby Grey Dog » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:28 am

Planing hulls vs. Displacement hulls?
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Re: GSP for duckhunting

Postby Tanner01 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 2:37 pm

We have been doing a lot of swimming with the training and she is starting to become smoother in the water. When we first started she was almost trying to walk on the water with her front paws up high and splashing. Last night she was looking more like the Griffon very smooth. Just her head was sticking out of the water she looked a little bit like a muskrat :lol3:
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Re: GSP for duckhunting

Postby Legband#1 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:19 pm

It's obvious you have your mind made up , but I don't think you were looking for imput on the GSPs limitations as a water dog , instead I think you were looking for confirmation on using the dog for something you know it doesn't have the breeding for.
If you willing to except her limitations more power to you, but if your expecting her to perform like a lab in the water your going to be very disappointed and its not going to be the dogs fault, and I promise, you can find guys who will tell you that there Yorky can out swim most labs but that doesn't make it so , I wish you the best and hope it works out to your satisfaction , enjoy the time with your dog.

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Re: GSP for duckhunting

Postby Tanner01 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:00 pm

:smile: Yeah your probabally right about my mind being made up....I do have doubts but I'm going to do the best we can, limitations or not. Training to a retriever standard is difficult but a lot of fun,we will keep going and see where we end up. She did that thing tonight that good retrievers do- I had two piles out close together to work on straight lines. She was staring at the pile to the left but I wanted her lined to the other pile, I tell her no no and she looks dead ahead to the other pile and I say "good girl" and she strecthes out a little more towards the pile. Very cool. Wish I had done this with my lab. Maybe I will paint her white spots and just call her a lab. :lol3:
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Re: GSP for duckhunting

Postby Legband#1 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:29 pm

Stay in touch and let me know how you do if you don't mind I will be rooting for you.
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Re: GSP for duckhunting

Postby Rick Hall » Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:14 am

Legband#1 wrote:You can find guys who will tell you that there Yorky can out swim most labs but that doesn't make it so...


Put me in mind of the ex-'s Westie, Bill. Being brought up largely on the water with a water loving "big brother" made him a strong little swimmer, and seeking to lure his mistress afield with us, I taught Bill to enjoy retrieving. ( Largely through jealously built by having to watch my duck dog, then an English setter, retrieve and be praised for it.) The scheme worked well enough that he and Pam and I enjoyed a good bit of early season teal and woodie hunting on small waters, where he did fine for our conditions and Ohio's relatively slow gunning. Terrier (or prey driven anything) tenacity made him death's shadow on marked cripples, but with lively crips you wanted to meet Bill at the bank, before his feet were firmly aground and terrier tenacity kicked it. We had a lot of fun with him.

Never had reason or desire to try him in late season or on the big waters the setter and I often hunted, because Bill's "mom" wasn't inclined to make such trips, either. But the point of such remembrance is that we had some fine times duck hunting over a "ground," rather than "water," dog - because I was willing to give it a shot. And I'd hate to see anyone not give the dog they have a chance to succeed in pleasing them, just because it "wasn't bred for it".

Shoot, look at the Labrador: all those generations of selective breeding for UK land work and they still do fine in water. It's not like water-bred Chesapeakes directly descended from fishermen's dogs are the only thing capable of handling a duck...
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Re: GSP for duckhunting

Postby ohio mike » Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:53 am

Rick, that last paragraph kinda reminded me of a sharp stick. :hammer: :lol3:
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Re: GSP for duckhunting

Postby Rick Hall » Thu Aug 08, 2013 2:13 pm

Just havin' a little fun.
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Re: GSP for duckhunting

Postby Legband#1 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:30 pm

Well Rick
It's clear you want to have some fun here so I will play along.
First of all your information on the Labrador is inaccurate.
The Labrador which is really from Newfoundland not Labador was bread and known as the saint Johns Water Dog, he was a fish retrieving dog for over four hundred years.
He arrived In Poole England appox 1800 and the Second Earl of Malmesbury's records in his exsinsive hunting journals state that he hunted with his Newfoundland dog in 1809.
He along with the 5th duke of Buccleuch who's kennels were in Scotland and the 10th Earl of Home are responsible for saving the breed.
While your right to say the Lab was used for upland in Britain, it was also always a Dog of the moor's or wetlands and the breed was never used exclusively as a upland dog , although it could have been being that it is the all around best Dog in the world.
The lab was introduced to the USA in the late 1800's but the breed was not registered with the AKC until 1917, so as you can see it was not bread for hundreds of years in england as a upland dog and once again was never used exclusively for upland in anytime anywhere.
It quickly became the prominate waterfowl Dog of the states and King Buck is still to Duck dogs today, what Babe Ruth is to baseball.
As for the Chessy, to speak against the Chesapeake Bay Retriever is to speak aginst the Labrador, the Chessy was started by two saint Johns Dog pups that were saved from the shipwreck of the Brig Canton that sank in 1807 on its way to Poole England and the dogs were undoubtly to go to the Second Earl himself, so once again it's that lab DNA that's at work.
So there you have it the Facts and only the Facts and oppions don't change Facts , unless your in our current White House Administration.

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Re: GSP for duckhunting

Postby Rick Hall » Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:53 pm

There's no news in any of that, except your mistaken notions that moors are waterfowling wetlands, rather than upland game habitat, and that waterfowling superseded upland shooting in UK Lab development. (Check out their retriever trials.) Well, that and a convolution of fact that would do the current administration proud crediting "Lab," rather than St. John's (or Newfoundland) dogs' DNA, as well as that of no one knows how many others, for the Chesapeake's development.

Again, I'm just playing on the Internet and couldn't give a rat's tail whether you or anyone else want to think a Lab or cockapoo is the world's super-duperest dog. It's fine by me.
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Re: GSP for duckhunting

Postby Griffdom » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:48 pm

Legband,

Not trying to start an argument but your notion of the lab being the worlds best dog is debatable. Best at what? It is a great dog indeed, but most versatile I would have to respectfully disagree. This is of course if you define best as most versatile. if you are referring to drug dog, bomb dog, and seeing eye dog related stuff then i would have to agree with you. If our definition only includes hunting abilities/versatility( which I assume this is what you mean given this is a hunting dog forum and you only listed upland and waterfowl in your post) including upland work, waterfowl, blood tracking, vermin control, and big game hunting I would have to say there are a whole host of euro versatiles that would rank ahead of the lab. When it comes to waterfowl they are hard to beat, obviously. This is of course my opinion.....
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Re: GSP for duckhunting

Postby ohio mike » Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:43 pm

Rick Hall wrote:Just havin' a little fun.


If your gonna stir at least use a spoon. Bout time we got a fun thread going,the place ain't what it used to be. :rolleyes:
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Re: GSP for duckhunting

Postby Legband#1 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:57 pm

Ok one at a time boys
The statement worlds best all around dog was just a poke back at Rick for fun.
My GSP works circles around my lab on upland birds and will go all day as long as she has water.
I do sincerely believe as far as water dogs go though labs are hard to beat.
Alright Rick my friend , once again you make a statement I have to challenge the fact is that moors are wetlands
They like all wetlands hold greater amounts water at different times of the season or weather cycles and some wetlands dry out completely during arid times.
The Etymology of the word moor means swamp in the old English and while they certainly hold grouse and other upland birds
They also hold waterfowl like the (moorhen) as well as ducks and geese .
And the info I mentioned on the cheesy is solid. I will make this my last post on the subject because It seems like your getting angry and that's not my goal, I like good debate and I enjoy learning and sharing with others, if I came across harsh or mean spirited , or a know it all , you have my most humble apologies and I will let you have the last word.
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Re: GSP for duckhunting

Postby Elvis Kiwi » Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:01 am

if you really want to see a GSP shine. get them up in some tussock country chasing four legged game, you wont have wallabies over there but a hare drive will show the same. after a few hours in the heat the lighter skinned dogs come into thier own. poor labs are done for...cooked by the heat. finding creeks for them to swim/soak in is a must. my old black dogs were great up in the tussocks but really loved a wet/misty day when the heat wasnt as intense :huh: just realised as writing those words how the opposite was what started the thread. :thumbsup:
labs for the cold and GSPs in the heat :thumbsup:
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Re: GSP for duckhunting

Postby Rick Hall » Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:19 am

Legband#1 wrote:Ok one at a time boys
The statement worlds best all around dog was just a poke back at Rick for fun.
My GSP works circles around my lab on upland birds and will go all day as long as she has water.
I do sincerely believe as far as water dogs go though labs are hard to beat.
Alright Rick my friend , once again you make a statement I have to challenge the fact is that moors are wetlands
They like all wetlands hold greater amounts water at different times of the season or weather cycles and some wetlands dry out completely during arid times.
The Etymology of the word moor means swamp in the old English and while they certainly hold grouse and other upland birds
They also hold waterfowl like the (moorhen) as well as ducks and geese .
And the info I mentioned on the cheesy is solid. I will make this my last post on the subject because It seems like your getting angry and that's not my goal, I like good debate and I enjoy learning and sharing with others, if I came across harsh or mean spirited , or a know it all , you have :huh: my most humble apologies and I will let you have the last word.


My first point was that moors are the home of the red grouse guys like the Duke of Buccleuch were gunning in a driven
fashion (flushing work being largely the domain of spaniels) that set the pace for most of the breed's development in the UK, whether Malmesbury and others were shooting ducks over them or not. Again, a look to their Labrador trials, and testing, demonstrates the relative importance of the two. Yet, a Lab from the heart of their driven bird field/trial breeding still has the potential to make a fine water dog for the great majority of us, as well.

And you were doing fine on the Chessie's history right up until trying to credit "Lab" DNA for it. While both breeds sprang in large part from the same Newfoundland/St.John's well, the Chesapeake's share, Canton and Sailor, was bred to local dogs of varied breeding, rather than each other or others of their kind, as seems largely the case in the UK. Labs had no more role than sharing some common ancestry.

In all candor, I took your intial, "Hey, Rick" post as trying to misconstrue what I'd actually written to try to pit pointing dogs against retrievers in the water, so you could pick a "best dog" fight that's probably been going on since dogs first entered men's caves. (Who woulda thunk that whether setters or pointers were the better water dogs was, not so terribly long ago, a serious bone of contention? But at the turn of the 20th century, setter fans gave their favorites the edge for coat, and pointerites countered with accounts of their champions battling swift currents and coastal ice flows for ducks. All before general versatility gave way to our specialist oriented society, where we even feel a need to have versatile specialists, of course.) I recounted the story of our game little Westie, Bill, to illustrate that a dog needn't be "best" or even "better" to be a well worthwhile waterfowling partner, and the poke at Labs was, as stated, in fun.

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Re: GSP for duckhunting

Postby Rick Hall » Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:23 am

ohio mike wrote:
Rick Hall wrote:Just havin' a little fun.


If your gonna stir at least use a spoon. Bout time we got a fun thread going,the place ain't what it used to be. :rolleyes:


Hopefully copterdoc will be back to revitalize it. (If my "versatile specialist" comment above fails to ignite that bonfire.)
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